Found FireFox PBAN book

[TimothyG]

I have a hard time with purchasing direct from firefox given I've never gotten through in hundreds of calls and their reputation online. However I'd really like to get my hands on the PBAN book they sold. If anyone happens to have one of these or any other PBAN related book on hand I'd greatly appreciate the chance to purchase/borrow/scan or otherwise obtain access to the information within. I've found some information for PBAN on here but I never feel comfortable starting chemical experiments without having enough information to justify my decisions and methods so I've yet to start personally experimenting with pban.

Admin if this request belongs in the research forum instead of here please move it as needed.

 

[jbr]

pfessor book has a lot of pban
https://www.apogeerockets.com/Rocket-Books-Videos/Books/Experimental-Composite-Propellant

 

[TimothyG]

I have that book in addition to getting several questions answered by him here on the forum. He’s been very generous and helpful through my misunderstandings. However I’d prefer to have as many sources as possible. I’ve had to learn EX via this forum and other online and paper sources without access to a hands on mentor due to location. As a result I’m always hesitant to start something new without multiple sources.

 

[Rocket501]

I have read the firefox book (sadly I don't have a copy), but was personally less then impressed. It was a lot like an abridged version of ECP. A few different formulas, but I found it overall less helpful. There are some good research papers that I will try to find and send to you. Good luck finding a copy.

Also, has anyone had recent success dealing with Firefox? I've found ordering from them to be a nightmare about a year ago and was wondering if it had improved.

 

[TimothyG]

I'm a short drive from them and I've considered visiting them to make a few purchases but with the virus going on and their advanced age I don't want to risk getting them sick. At this point I don't view their website ordering system as functional, more as a reminder of what once was and an aged inventory that might reflect what they may or may not still have.

 

[NateB]

Also, has anyone had recent success dealing with Firefox? I've found ordering from them to be a nightmare about a year ago and was wondering if it had improved.

I haven't ordered from them in 7 or 8 years. It was slow then, but I got my order.

I don't have the specific rocket book, but have one that contains different composite colored flame formulas for stars, gerbs, rockets, and related devices. I read it, but have never made from it. It was interesting, but I went a different direction. I don't have ECP to compare it to either. You'd be welcome to borrow it, but it probably isn't quite what you need.

 

[TimothyG]

That's a very generous offer and if your ok with loaning it I'd love the opportunity to make a copy of it for my information. Just as a quick comment I'd happily buy any and all of these books firefox put out and will still do so when I finally get around to visiting firefox. I have no intention of redistribution to anyone and will pay for physical copies once I can get a hold of firefox, even if I already have a copied version of one of their products.

 

[NickG]

Timothy, i have a copy i can lend you. i just sent you a PM.

 

[prfesser]

IMO Firefox's propellant formulas seem to have a lot of different ingredients, and I've never figured out why some of them are there. In particular, Tepanol (HX-878) is not a universal bonding agent. It has a group that chemically bonds to ammonium compounds by displacing ammonia gas, and several groups that bond to isocyanates and a few other organics.

The professional literature suggests that the large organic portion of the Tepanol molecule may be attracted (not chemically bonded) by what are called dispersion forces*** (London forces) to the organic binder of PBAN. Whether that attraction is worth adding Tepanol to a PBAN mixture is something that would be interesting to find out.

Best -- Terry
***Teaching moment: For the non-chemistry folk, dispersion forces are one type of attractive force between molecules (or ions or atoms, depending). These types of attraction are collectively called van der Waals forces. Most are quite a bit weaker than covalent chemical bonds. And they're physical in nature; separating particles held together by such forces usually leaves the particles unchanged. Here's a stupid analogy: imagine a long chain of people holding hands with one another. Doesn't take much to separate two people, you just need to overcome the relatively weak hand-holding, and they still have their hands. Chemical bonds are more like the people being handcuffed to one another (visualize purple-fur-lined cuffs for comfort ). To separate people you either need to break the chain of a pair of handcuffs, or break some bones. Takes a lotta force. Breaking a chemical bond can change the bonded species to something different, because the weaker bond, not necessarily the one you want, is the one that usually breaks.

 

[acer88]

I haven't ordered from them in 7 or 8 years. It was slow then, but I got my order.

I don't have the specific rocket book, but have one that contains different composite colored flame formulas for stars, gerbs, rockets, and related devices. I read it, but have never made from it. It was interesting, but I went a different direction. I don't have ECP to compare it to either. You'd be welcome to borrow it, but it probably isn't quite what you need.

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I just ordered some books on May 4th, and have been charged , but nothing further. I have emailed them and called and no response since I was invoiced. I hope they are in good health and not sick. I was looking for some reading material why in lockdown.... Guess I'll have to wait and see

 

[heada]

This made me go look to see what related books I had. Sleeter, Sutton, Clark....a few others and I guess I liked the Professor's book a lot since I have 2 copies. I don't have FireFox's PBAN book though, sorry.

 

[TimothyG]

This made me go look to see what related books I had. Sleeter, Sutton, Clark....a few others and I guess I liked the Professor's book a lot since I have 2 copies. I don't have FireFox's PBAN book though, sorry.

I’d be very interested in other sources as well. This is a case of you don’t know what you don’t know. And I’m very much not satisfied with a handful of sources when there should be more. Even sharing titles of other resources is helpful to me.

 

[NateB]

I have Sleeter's book too. It has good information for BP motors, but we still can't launch them at Tripoli events. I learned a lot from it, but use a different method for BP motors that I have dialed in.