Estes made Black Powder

[Zbench]

Interesting article I just read about Estes’ foray into the black powder biz:

https://apple.news/AgU1wJgdYQiO932S_Ixl1Bg
Happy to see they got $3.5M of govt teet to rebuild the plant.

 

[schworer]

The U.S. Military Relies on One Louisiana Factory. It Blew Up.

Decades of consolidation has left the Pentagon vulnerable to mishaps—including when the sole maker of a crucial type of gunpowder went offline
Nonexplosive testing materials were loaded into a press at the black powder factory in Minden, La., in February amid its preparations to resume production.

Article link, should work without a WSJ subscription:

https://www.wsj.com/articles/the-u-...iayzhlw4cw1&reflink=desktopwebshare_permalink

 

[DigBaddy]

Mods, merge? https://www.rocketryforum.com/threads/estes-made-black-powder.179609/

 

[schworer]

Didn't see the other post. Bill

 

[KenECoyote]

Cool idea!

Edit add: This is a sign of either a very fun work place... or a very dangerous one!

 

[BigMacDaddy]

Interesting to see some of the behind the scenes manufacturing process and industry ecosystem -- thanks for sharing.

"For a millennium, black powder was a crucial material for both military and commercial uses. Today, it is a specialty commodity with few commercial applications—mostly for rocket hobbyists—but it’s still used in more than 300 munitions, from cruise missiles, to bullets for M16 rifles, to the vital 155mm shells."

I guess this might suggest that rocketry is a bigger market than muzzle loaders / re-loaders.

 

[Steve Shannon]

Interesting to see some of the behind the scenes manufacturing process and industry ecosystem -- thanks for sharing.

"For a millennium, black powder was a crucial material for both military and commercial uses. Today, it is a specialty commodity with few commercial applications—mostly for rocket hobbyists—but it’s still used in more than 300 munitions, from cruise missiles, to bullets for M16 rifles, to the vital 155mm shells."

I guess this might suggest that rocketry is a bigger market than muzzle loaders / re-loaders.

Bullets for M16 rifles? Black powder? Wow, did they get that wrong.

 

[aerostadt]

This is absolutely crazy that so many products including products essential to national security have been outsourced overseas.

 

[cwbullet]

This is absolutely crazy that so many products including products essential to national security have been outsourced overseas.

Concur. It is insane that we have decided to send all manufacturing to foreign countries. It might make use less likely to go to war but it might also make us unable to defend our friends.

 

[cls]

Wall Street and the MBAs exported manufacturing a long time ago, starting nearly 50 years ago. Kinda late to notice only now.

 

[aerostadt]

Wall Street and the MBAs exported manufacturing a long time ago, starting nearly 50 years ago. Kinda late to notice only now.

Agreed, as pointed out in "The 100 Year Marathon" by Michael Pillsbury with regard to Communist China. This has been going on for a long time. Pillsbury says going back to the Carter administration. Starting to change the situation now is better than never.

 

[Rocketjunkie]

The U.S. Military Relies on One Louisiana Factory. It Blew Up.

Decades of consolidation has left the Pentagon vulnerable to mishaps—including when the sole maker of a crucial type of gunpowder went offline
Nonexplosive testing materials were loaded into a press at the black powder factory in Minden, La., in February amid its preparations to resume production.

Article link, should work without a WSJ subscription:

https://www.wsj.com/articles/the-u-...iayzhlw4cw1&reflink=desktopwebshare_permalink

...And the taxpayers get raped again

Interesting to see some of the behind the scenes manufacturing process and industry ecosystem -- thanks for sharing.

"For a millennium, black powder was a crucial material for both military and commercial uses. Today, it is a specialty commodity with few commercial applications—mostly for rocket hobbyists—but it’s still used in more than 300 munitions, from cruise missiles, to bullets for M16 rifles, to the vital 155mm shells."

I guess this might suggest that rocketry is a bigger market than muzzle loaders / re-loaders.

A day of shooting muzzle loaders uses far more BP than a year of HPR ejection charges. I use about 1/4 lb. per year.

 

[BEC]

Perhaps, but one Estes C6 uses a bit over 10 grams of BP (for example). This story does make me wonder what proportion of current US black powder consumption goes into all the Mabel descendants in Penrose.

 

[cls]

...And the taxpayers get raped again

A day of shooting muzzle loaders uses far more BP than a year of HPR.

We watched a civil war reenactment on Angel Island a while ago. The 6"? cannons use 3 to 5 pounds of FFFG in a shot. The cannon guys say they can empty several 50# barrels in a weekend! they wanted folks to join the hobby, so everyone could share the chore of ordering and storing the (legal limit) 50# barrels, one per household.

But I bet that use isn't a blip, nationally.

 

[BEC]

Interesting. So using the cert data's propellant weight of 10.8g per motor (so not including the BP in the ejection charge), that 50 lb. barrel is enough powder for 2100 C6 motors. I have no idea how many are made in a given batch.

I can see how black powder can be consumed at a pretty fair rate at one of those reenactments. But it would be fun to see how that compares to LPR consumption, which would be spread out rather more.

 

[brockrwood]

Interesting article I just read about Estes’ foray into the black powder biz:

https://apple.news/AgU1wJgdYQiO932S_Ixl1Bg
Happy to see they got $3.5M of govt teet to rebuild the plant.

Hey, every industry and state gets some sort of “pork barrel” when it comes to government hand outs. There are a lot worse ways for the Government to spend money than by ensuring a reliable source of black powder for the model rocketry hobby.

 

[bjphoenix]

Isn't there some American production of fireworks? It would seem that fireworks could use a large quantity of BP.

 

[Zbench]

Hey, every industry and state gets some sort of “pork barrel” when it comes to government hand outs. There are a lot worse ways for the Government to spend money than by ensuring a reliable source of black powder for the model rocketry hobby.

I must have missed the article in the constitution which limited governments powers where it said that is was ok to blow money to help private industry make a profit. Apologies.

 

[Banzai88]

Isn't there some American production of fireworks? It would seem that fireworks could use a large quantity of BP.

Maybe, but probably not consumer grade. I was in South Carolina last year, hit up 4 different VERY large fireworks stores.......not one single retail item in any of the stores was made in USA. Shocker, everything had 'Made in China' printed on them.

Based on what I've seen with Civil War re-enactments and black powder hunting season sales when I ran a gun shop (and my own usage in hunting vs. rocketry), I'd be willing to bet that black powder rocket motors are the 'blip' in overall domestic usage of black powder.

 

[brockrwood]

I must have missed the article in the constitution which limited governments powers where it said that is was ok to blow money to help private industry make a profit. Apologies.

The commerce clause. Article I, Section 8, Clause 3. Basically, if the government thinks that doing something to help private industry will somehow help the citizens of the nation overall, the government can do it.

There is plenty of corporate “welfare” in the history of our government. Remember bailing out GM in 2008? Remember the Federal Reserve bailing out banks with loans and guarantees? If the government (i.e., Congress) thinks that the handout will somehow benefit the nation’s citizens overall, it will do it.

Great example of this: The Federally chartered Union Pacific Railroad in the 1860’s. The act authorizing the UP gave every other section Federal land along the route to use for “railroad purposes”. The UP thought that means “anything we want to do”. This created the “checkerboard” patterm of the UP owning land in Wyoming and other states. The UP now has drilled natural gas wells in those sections and earned nice profits. Does this help the country? Sure, it is an energy source developed. Does it help the UP? Even moreso.

 

[Zbench]

The commerce clause. Article I, Section 8, Clause 3. Basically, if the government thinks that doing something to help private industry will somehow help the citizens of the nation overall, the government can do it.

There is plenty of corporate “welfare” in the history of our government. Remember bailing out GM in 2008? Remember the Federal Reserve bailing out banks with loans and guarantees? If the government (i.e., Congress) thinks that the handout will somehow benefit the nation’s citizens overall, it will do it.

Great example of this: The Federally chartered Union Pacific Railroad in the 1860’s. The act authorizing the UP gave every other section Federal land along the route to use for “railroad purposes”. The UP thought that means “anything we want to do”. This created the “checkerboard” patterm of the UP owning land in Wyoming and other states. The UP now has drilled natural gas wells in those sections and earned nice profits. Does this help the country? Sure, it is an energy source developed. Does it help the UP? Even moreso.

Appreciate your perspective, but that's not the intent of the commerce clause. I assume you are talking about the "general welfare" part. SC has held that whatever that is used for, has to be uniform across the entire country. Giving a gift to private industry is not consistent with this intent. And, just because Congress gets away with it now, and has in the past, does not make it right or what the founders intended.

As to the Federal Reserve, you do know that it is a private entity, a business made up or 12 independent banks, right? It is not part of the Government. The only part that is, is the Board of Governors, who's sole job is to set monetary policy. So that example doesn't fly either.

 

[rharshberger]

The commerce clause. Article I, Section 8, Clause 3. Basically, if the government thinks that doing something to help private industry will somehow help the citizens of the nation overall, the government can do it.

There is plenty of corporate “welfare” in the history of our government. Remember bailing out GM in 2008? Remember the Federal Reserve bailing out banks with loans and guarantees? If the government (i.e., Congress) thinks that the handout will somehow benefit the nation’s citizens overall, it will do it.

Great example of this: The Federally chartered Union Pacific Railroad in the 1860’s. The act authorizing the UP gave every other section Federal land along the route to use for “railroad purposes”. The UP thought that means “anything we want to do”. This created the “checkerboard” patterm of the UP owning land in Wyoming and other states. The UP now has drilled natural gas wells in those sections and earned nice profits. Does this help the country? Sure, it is an energy source developed. Does it help the UP? Even moreso.

This particular $3.5million dollars is via the Defense Production Act, and yes we do need a domestic black powder producer for defense purposes.

 

[Zbench]

I don’t disagree, but why is it incumbent on the taxpayer to foot the bill for capital costs for private industry? There are programs to borrow money and pay it back which was the case with GM. They paid back every dime they borrowed with interest. It takes the average guy 70 years to earn $3.5M. The govt spends it like it’s free rain water.

 

[shockie]

The U.S. Military Relies on One Louisiana Factory. It Blew Up.

Decades of consolidation has left the Pentagon vulnerable to mishaps—including when the sole maker of a crucial type of gunpowder went offline
Nonexplosive testing materials were loaded into a press at the black powder factory in Minden, La., in February amid its preparations to resume production.

Article link, should work without a WSJ subscription:

https://www.wsj.com/articles/the-u-...iayzhlw4cw1&reflink=desktopwebshare_permalink

It doesn't work without a subscription.

 

[cls]

It doesn't work without a subscription.

Hi, per second post,

https://www.wsj.com/articles/the-u-...iayzhlw4cw1&reflink=desktopwebshare_permalink

Also, please look for the browser extension "Block Paywalls Clean Complete". With uBlock Origin, the web is all yours.

(Edit, Clean, not Complete. You might find Chrome as well.)

 

[schworer]

I don’t disagree, but why is it incumbent on the taxpayer to foot the bill for capital costs for private industry? There are programs to borrow money and pay it back which was the case with GM. They paid back every dime they borrowed with interest. It takes the average guy 70 years to earn $3.5M. The govt spends it like it’s free rain water.

There are budgeted funds for areas that are crucial to defense where domestic suppliers/small businesses may have difficulty getting sufficient capital up front to quickly supply unique DOD-related needs or to prevent downstream supply chain risk. The article doesnt specify the details, it may be Estes is on the hook for paying it back in some fashion. One way to think about it is multi-billion dollar, multi-year procurement of ordinance shouldn't have the risk of production being hobbled by BP supply chain problems or lack of a domestic supply. If that happened, costs incurred would be far more than the $3.5 mil plus military readiness might suffer. So its an insurance policy that benefits DoD and has the added "bonus" of assuring plenty of BP for other domestic uses by the citizenry. And as a percent of DoD's budget, its literally a drop in the ocean.

 

[Zbench]

There are budgeted funds for areas that are crucial to defense where domestic suppliers/small businesses may have difficulty getting sufficient capital up front to quickly supply unique DOD-related needs or to prevent downstream supply chain risk. The article doesnt specify the details, it may be Estes is on the hook for paying it back in some fashion. One way to think about it is multi-billion dollar, multi-year procurement of ordinance shouldn't have the risk of production being hobbled by BP supply chain problems or lack of a domestic supply. If that happened, costs incurred would be far more than the $3.5 mil plus military readiness might suffer. So its an insurance policy that benefits DoD and has the added "bonus" of assuring plenty of BP for other domestic uses by the citizenry. And as a percent of DoD's budget, its literally a drop in the ocean.

I get the defense implications and used to be an active duty Army officer and even worked to develop new equipment in the chemical corps. I’m well aware of how it works.

Where does one draw the line? I think Margaret Thatcher said it best when she opined, “the problem with socialism is eventually you run out of other people’s money.”

I just don’t agree with giving money to private industry so they can make a profit off the brow of the American Taxpayer. Anyone who pays taxes (a dwindling number these days) should feel the same.

 

[schworer]

I get the defense implications and used to be an active duty Army officer and even worked to develop new equipment in the chemical corps. I’m well aware of how it works.

Where does one draw the line? I think Margaret Thatcher said it best when she opined, “the problem with socialism is eventually you run out of other people’s money.”

I just don’t agree with giving money to private industry so they can make a profit off the brow of the American Taxpayer. Anyone who pays taxes (a dwindling number these days) should feel the same.

Philosophically I agree with you on the general government subsidy issue.

Unfortunately Disfunction Central has incrementally built such an ugly house of many gables over the years that to clean up its design would so disrupt the status quo that pretty much everyone would oppose it, even if tax rates were lowered as a result.

For example, look at all the the "hidden" subsidies embedded in the federal and state tax codes voted in by both political parties. There are plenty of legal tax deductions and tax credits at the individual level (standard deduction, itemized deductions, dependent deductions, energy tax credits, etc.) and at the company level (all kinds of write-offs and credits) that force one group of taxpayers to annually cross-subsidize other taxpayers and corporate interests.....to the tune of $billions a year. A visible example is the tax credit for electric cars....that is a subsidy to Tesla et all because it jacks up sales & profits by decreasing the cost to the buyer (some of who would have bought the car without the subsidy). You and I are paying for that, the Tesla driver not so much (actually, our grand-kids are going to be paying for it because that cash is "borrowed" at considerable ongoing compound interest expense that eventually will crowd out other government functions).

That $3.5M to Estes is equal to the federal tax credit subsidies paid on just 466 EVs at $7.5K per. If it were up to me, I'd rather subsidize capital improvements to a BP plant necessary for domestic production than subsidize 466 EV rides for people that can afford new cars north of $50K. Other folk's opinions may be different, particularly if they have bought a taxpayer subsidized EV.

Eventually Thatcher will be proven correct, its just going to take a while to get there.

 

[caveduck]

BP is functionally obsolete for modern military uses. It has very low specific energy, and a number of obnoxious properties that make other energetic materials much better for almost all applications. The few things that still use it are mostly accidents of supply chain history coupled with things that didn't get redesigned back when they should have. I'm kind of astonished that it's still used somewhere in the detonation chain of 155 shells. $3.5M is nothing in the military budget and seems like a very, very small amount for a hazmat manufacturing plant modernization. I think the DoD is really doing it as a convenience move to buy time to finish retiring BP from the military procurement world.

Estes bought the plant because otherwise production of higher-grade BP was going to permanently end, worldwide, threatening their core business.

 

[brockrwood]

BP is functionally obsolete for modern military uses. It has very low specific energy, and a number of obnoxious properties that make other energetic materials much better for almost all applications. The few things that still use it are mostly accidents of supply chain history coupled with things that didn't get redesigned back when they should have. I'm kind of astonished that it's still used somewhere in the detonation chain of 155 shells. $3.5M is nothing in the military budget and seems like a very, very small amount for a hazmat manufacturing plant modernization. I think the DoD is really doing it as a convenience move to buy time to finish retiring BP from the military procurement world.

Estes bought the plant because otherwise production of higher-grade BP was going to permanently end, worldwide, threatening their core business.

Isn’t there a Swiss company that manufactures black powder?