Estes Igniter Modification Demo, FabriTac and FabriTac plus Black Powder

[BABAR]

Had some unsuccessful cluster shots recently (was using a 12 volt batter source)
Thought I would try some experiments.

First Video is a comparison of 4 Types, type 3 I think didn't have enough glue
Left: Estes Current Starter (Cellulose tip0
Top Left: Old Estes "Solar" Igniter (Black Tip)
Top Right: Estes Current Starter, soaked off the cellulose with water, replaced with FabriTac Glue Alone
Right: Estes Current Starter, soaked off the cellulose with water, replaced with FabriTac Glue and BlackPowder

jump to 50 seconds for the burn



When I reviewed the above, looked like there was no glue on the TIP of the FabriTac alone igniter, I had run out of BlackPowder tipped ones, so I did a three way comparison

Left: Estes Current Starter (Cellulose tip0
Top : Old Estes "Solar" Igniter (Black Tip)
Right: Estes Current Starter, soaked off the cellulose with water, replaced with FabriTac Glue Alone

jump to 50 seconds for the burn



I'm not sure the glue is helping it to light FASTER, but it definitely (even without the pyrodex) is definitely burning LONGER and presumably hotter (maybe not, the wire is glowing pretty well.) One thing I LIKE about dipping in the glue, once it is dry, it makes the igniter "solid", so you are much less likely to accidentally break the thin bridging nichrome wire.

comments welcome.

 

[KILTED COWBOY]

What conclusions do y’all have about the test.
Can anyone explain why Estes changed igniters.
The old black tips alway seemed to work better than the new ones.
I had a bunch of old ones left over from many years ago but I am running out

 

[kuririn]

Nice demo!
Just wondering if the igniter with the Fabri Tac alone was completely dry?
If not the acetone could have contributed to the flammability.
For the igniter with Fabri-Tac and BP, maybe a less clumpy igniter can be made with a finer grain powder?
Probably just need a dusting on top. 4F?
I've heard that fingernail polish/lacquer and BP also works.
Maybe make a few ignitors when the wife isn't looking.

 

[kuririn]

Can anyone explain why Estes changed igniters.

My understanding is that they would have had to adhere to new postal regulations if they kept pyrogen coated ignitors, so they changed to non-pyrogen ones and renamed them "starters". But I may be wrong. And frequently am.

 

[kuririn]

P.S. Also nitrocellulose coated with BP.

 

[BABAR]

Nice demo!
Just wondering if the igniter with the Fabri Tac alone was completely dry?
If not the acetone could have contributed to the flammability.
For the igniter with Fabri-Tac and BP, maybe a less clumpy igniter can be made with a finer grain powder?
Probably just need a dusting on top. 4F?
I've heard that fingernail polish/lacquer and BP also works.
Maybe make a few ignitors when the wife isn't looking.

Hang them tip down so the glue forms a droplet at the tip.

They were completely dry

 

[BABAR]

I think the plain glue coated ones will be more reliable for single motor rockets.

NOT sure about clusters. While if the igniter is in the motor it will ignite it EVENTUALLY, not sure if all will light simultaneously.

 

[mbeels]

Interesting, it looks like the fabritac one pops just a bit later than the other two in your second video. But when it goes, it goes. That may help avoid duds on the A rack. I may give it a try as well, last time I had 3 failed launch attempts with the plain Estes ignitor.

 

[BEC]

What did you use to power the test (since you were essentially trying to fire a four-motor cluster in the first test and a three-motor cluster on the second). The leads look like an old Solar Launch controller....

Also...what about just dipping a starter in Fabri-Tac without soaking off the factory coating? Or maybe I should try that?

Personally I have about a ~5% or so failure rate with the current starters, but I sure would be afraid to use 'em in a cluster. Both of my personal systems and the club one are currently using 3s LiPoly batteries for power.

 

[BABAR]

What did you use to power the test (since you were essentially trying to fire a four-motor cluster in the first test and a three-motor cluster on the second). The leads look like an old Solar Launch controller....

Also...what about just dipping a starter in Fabri-Tac without soaking off the factory coating? Or maybe I should try that?

Personally I have about a ~5% or so failure rate with the current starters, but I sure would be afraid to use 'em in a cluster. Both of my personal systems and the club one are currently using 3s LiPoly batteries for power.

 

[BABAR]

I used
STANLEY FATMAX 700/350 Amp Jump Starter
with Pratt GoBox Cigaretty lighter adapter plug in.

I like the GoBox, probably lose some energy due to the long wires.

I have had good luck with the Estes starters for single motors, not so much for clusters.

 

[kuririn]

I think Chris M ran a similar test a while back on his blog. I'll see if I can find it.

 

[kuririn]

Found it.
https://modelrocketbuilding.blogspot.com/search?q=4F+black+powder

Also...what about just dipping a starter in Fabri-Tac without soaking off the factory coating? Or maybe I should try that?

In the above link the igniter with the white coating removed lit a bit faster.

 

[SavPrato]

Just use nail polish and FFFF black powder.

 

[Antares JS]

I had the same problems with the new white-tipped igniters, and at the suggestion of another MDRA member, I bought Quickdip from Apogee and I now dip all my Estes igniters in it. I have not had a single misfire or cluster failure since I started using it.

https://www.apogeerockets.com/Rocket_Motors/Motor_Starters/QuickDip

 

[BEC]

I have QuickDip and have made a bunch of igniters using it. But my failure rate with the current Estes starters has been low enough that I just haven't bothered doing anything to them.

I spread the leads a little if they are too close (so they don't short when I put in the plug), drop them in the nozzle unbent, use the correct plug to push them in, then bend 'em over. Go fly. This has worked for me both flying alone and at club launches.

As I mentioned before, I generally use a PSII controller with a 3s LiPoly in it when flying alone. I am also using 3s LiPolys to power the club's 5-10 pad system and my own 3-pad system. But I also occasionally use a plain ol' Electron Beam (4 AA alkalines) and sometimes a 1966 Electro-Launch (4 D alkalines) with pretty good results. Not 100%, but certainly over 90%.

All this said, I would dip into my stash of Q2G2s for anything over two-motor clusters at least as long as I have them. After that I'd get into the older Estes igniters, of which I also have a good supply, before dipping the current ones.

 

[trialsguy]

There is a thread on here somewhere, and it has a post by Wes O. (Dr. Zooch), He did a fair amount of ignitor testing - his conclusion was, cheap nail polish on estes ignitors, alone, works great.

I've not tried it yet myself.

 

[kuririn]

Bill Stine announced at NARCON that next generation Estes starters with an "energetic" gray tip will be phasing in starting around the second half of this year.

 

[dpower]

Bill Stine announced at NARCON that next generation Estes starters with an "energetic" gray tip will be phasing in starting around the second half of this year.

That's good news!

 

[JLebow]

We decided to do a little home experiment with estes starters (me and my newly home schooled 9 year old son). We did bare nichrome wire (stock with the starch removed), a stock igniter, stock ignitor dipped in fabri-tac and 4f BP (which we called black sand in the video), and one with the starch removed then fabri-tac dipped in BP. We did usb microscope images and cell phone slow-mo.



Stock Ignitor:


Bare with starch removed using warm water:


Fired ignitor (this one had starch and BP):


This one was bare nichrome and the only one still intact after the test:


Loaded up with BP and Fabri-tac (allowed to dry overnight):


BP under magnification with a 1 mm pitch ruler. Looks like grains are between 250 um and 400 um. Average is supposed to be 470 um for ffff BP :

 

[mbeels]

We decided to do a little home experiment with estes starters (me and my newly home schooled 9 year old son). We did bare nichrome wire (stock with the starch removed), a stock igniter, stock ignitor dipped in fabri-tac and 4f BP (which we called black sand in the video), and one with the starch removed then fabri-tac dipped in BP. We did usb microscope images and cell phone slow-mo

Very nice! Thanks for sharing. I'm going to enhance some igniters soon as well.

 

[hcmbanjo]

I wrote the original article published in Sport Rocketry magazine,
using the Acetone based Fabri-Tac glue and 4F Black Powder.

I have since started water soaking off the glue/corn starch tips before the Fabri-Tac and black powder is applied.
Dip in the black powder and while the Fabri-Tac is still wet, form the tip into a smaller, thinner form on the tip.
Your 4F BP grains are larger than what I purchased.

Your video results are the same as in my tests.
While the clear tips can be left on and "treated", with the clear tip removed the glue and black powder ignition is faster.

 

[KILTED COWBOY]

I keep hearing about Estes coming out with enhanced igniters this summer.
Does anyone know anything about that?
What are they going to do
Will we not have to fix them anymore?
I am running low on my stash of old style ones

 

[Greg Furtman]

I've been adding FabriTac to my new style Estes ignitors & then dipping them in BP. Mid-February a bunch of us got together & launched LPRs. I had no ignitor failures but a lot of the other guys using the new Estes ignitors did. And we were using a 12V lead acid battery launch controller.

 

[BABAR]

Nice video and great pics.

Sure looks like it is worth soaking off the stock cellulose tip.

I had the same problem with the powder I got, grains too big. I got a mortar and pestle to grind them finer.

I need to run another video, I am curious again to compare with just fabritac glue alone.