Estes and Motors

[Bill S]

Aren't these Estes 29mm pretty much unobtanium?

Here you go...

https://www.hobbylinc.com/cgi-bin/s8.cgi?search_cat_s=&str_s=e16

https://www.hobbylinc.com/cgi-bin/s8.cgi?search_cat_s=&str_s=estes+f15

 

[Antares JS]

China.
Like the way every heroin dealer cuts the quality of the product by adding baking soda or something, and then reselling the same product at 1/2 the quality to make more money, I suspect the Chinese factory that is pumping out all of Estes' product line is cutting back on the quality of materials, which includes the quality of the black powder, to make more profit. Although it seems like the Ferengi in Star Trek were meant to be (or turned into) a slanderous parody of Jewish people, I believe China has done a really good job embracing the Rules of Acquisition.

I thought all of Estes BP Motors were made domestically.

Estes turns to China for kit components, but their motors are still made in the US.

 

[techrat]

Estes turns to China for kit components, but their motors are still made in the US.

That is interesting. So CATO reports to Estes might actually affect manufacturing as Customer Service may actually communicate with the folks making the motors. Noted for future reference. Either way, they need to do something about those nozzles blowing out. While my "D" CATO didn't damage the rocket, the "E" explosion destroyed my 'Drag Queen" rocket.

 

[techrat]

FYI, here is what another person in my group is doing with his Estes BP's -- regarding the ring of epoxy around the nozzle.
I may try CA as thin CA should also bind the clay itself better than stock.

 

[smstachwick]

That is interesting. So CATO reports to Estes might actually affect manufacturing as Customer Service may actually communicate with the folks making the motors. Noted for future reference. Either way, they need to do something about those nozzles blowing out. While my "D" CATO didn't damage the rocket, the "E" explosion destroyed my 'Drag Queen" rocket.

Black powder Es have always been at high risk for CATO. Estes already withdrew the E9s and replaced them with the E12s to address precisely this risk. They did the same in the 70s with the D line, replacing the D13 with the D12.

You can also reduce the odds of a CATO by flying large motors as quickly as possible. They have 1-year warranties and that’s about as much temperature cycling as they can take.

 

[SolarYellow]

Estes already withdrew the E9s and replaced them with the E12s to address precisely this risk.

Do we know when the last E9 was made? They get considerably higher apogee on some light, zippy rockets and vendors still have them in stock.

Estes already withdrew the E9s and replaced them with the E12s to address precisely this risk.

You can also reduce the odds of a CATO by flying large motors as quickly as possible. They have 1-year warranties and that’s about as much temperature cycling as they can take.

Keeping them in climate controlled storage (inside the house in A/C if needed) has to help. We see reports of people flying quite old motors without issue and black powder charges loaded for firearms many, many decades old still being good. Is there any consensus for how old is likely to be too old?

 

[BABAR]

China.
Like the way every heroin dealer cuts the quality of the product by adding baking soda or something, and then reselling the same product at 1/2 the quality to make more money, I suspect the Chinese factory that is pumping out all of Estes' product line is cutting back on the quality of materials, which includes the quality of the black powder, to make more profit. Although it seems like the Ferengi in Star Trek were meant to be (or turned into) a slanderous parody of Jewish people, I believe China has done a really good job embracing the Rules of Acquisition.

My ignorance is showing, but doesn’t every new motor need to be certified? Then that published data is used by entities like Open Rocket, RockSim, ThrustCurve, and Rocket Reviews.

i don’t know if EXISTING motors ver have to get re-certified. I don’t know if the re-released C5-3 got re-tested (rather than “assumed” to be identical to the OLD C5-3) nor if other motors that haven’t obviously been changed for decades (Estes 13, 18, and 24 mm, for example) in decades ever get rechecked (really miss Der MicroMeister, he’d probably know this, maybe @Peartree , @cwbullet , or @Steve Shannon would know, although the last two are mainly High Power guys, they may know who to ask on the forum, thanks in advance Gentlemen!)

since I don’t thing the Estes Motor Chart has changed much over the years, and it includes recommended Max Lift Off weights (which Estes continues to design rockets OVER the recommended Max Lift Off weights for recommended motors…..but that’s another rabbit hole for another time) I would think if their current manufacturers were ”watering down the whiskey” it would catch up with them in a span of a few months.

the Quest motors have certainly had a few bugs, but seem to be squashing them quickly.

anyhoo, yes Estes has a corner on all Black powder and all 13 mm motors and all single use zero delay motors, but the Quest motors motors compete well in the 18mm and 24mm markets which I think is the majority of low power. I like Estes, but I am glad they don’t have a complete monopoly.

 

[Steve Shannon]

My ignorance is showing, but doesn’t every new motor need to be certified? Then that published data is used by entities like Open Rocket, RockSim, ThrustCurve, and Rocket Reviews.

i don’t know if EXISTING motors ver have to get re-certified. I don’t know if the re-released C5-3 got re-tested (rather than “assumed” to be identical to the OLD C5-3) nor if other motors that haven’t obviously been changed for decades (Estes 13, 18, and 24 mm, for example) in decades ever get rechecked (really miss Der MicroMeister, he’d probably know this, maybe @Peartree , @cwbullet , or @Steve Shannon would know, although the last two are mainly High Power guys, they may know who to ask on the forum, thanks in advance Gentlemen!)

since I don’t thing the Estes Motor Chart has changed much over the years, and it includes recommended Max Lift Off weights (which Estes continues to design rockets OVER the recommended Max Lift Off weights for recommended motors…..but that’s another rabbit hole for another time) I would think if their current manufacturers were ”watering down the whiskey” it would catch up with them in a span of a few months.

the Quest motors have certainly had a few bugs, but seem to be squashing them quickly.

anyhoo, yes Estes has a corner on all Black powder and all 13 mm motors and all single use zero delay motors, but the Quest 18 and 24 mm motors compete well in those markets, which I think is the majority of low power. I like Estes, but I am glad they don’t have a complete monopoly.

Yes, in order to be sold to the general public in most countries, rocket motors must be certified, typically in accordance with NFPA 1125.
In North America there are three groups that certify the performance of rocket motors. The first was NAR S&T, formed to certify model rocket motors, the second was Tripoli Motor Testing (TMT) formed to certify high power rocket motors, and the third is CAR MCC in Canada.
All three certify the full range of motors now. All three work together to ensure that their certifications are reciprocally recognized by the other two. We have had meetings with representatives from all three to discuss common concerns, although not since Covid.
In the past motors were required to be recertified every five years, but there are so many different types of motors on the market now that it just became unmanageable and, according to the manufacturers, too expensive.
So now, motor certifications are reviewed every five years and if there’s an apparent problem the certification organizations can require re-testing or they can even cancel a certification, making a motor non-compliant with NFPA 1125 and thus unable for newly produced motors to be sold. No such action has had to be taken. Generally speaking the manufacturers are very responsive to issues with their motors. “Watering down the whisky” would be a great way for a manufacturer to lose the trust of the certification organizations. It’s even possible that a certification organization could revoke certification for an entire manufacturer’s line.

 

[lakeroadster]

Estes turns to China for kit components, but their motors are still made in the US.

So my memory didn't fail me this time. Thanks for the reply.

@techrat will you be posting an apology to the good folks at Estes any time soon?

the "E" explosion destroyed my 'Drag Queen" rocket.

Did you contact Estes about this ^^? They are pretty great about making things right and compensating the customer for damage as a result of a motor CATO.

I had two recent CATOs with Estes BP motors where the nozzle blew out. This isn't saying to me that the powder is too powerful, it's saying to me that whatever glue they use to keep the nozzle in place is too weak. Like they are cutting back on the glue. I have another rocketeer who recommends to me that we all put a little ring of epoxy around the nozzle to hold things in place. While it seems that customer service is happy to provide replacement motors, when I informed them of that plan, they urged me not to modify the motors in any way as that voids the warantee. Nevertheless this other rocketeer who has epoxied the nozzle isn't experiencing CATOs.

This is *NOT* hard evidence and is circumstantial, I know. Won't hold up in court. Already aware.

That said, my experience has been that something is amiss, and I should not be experiencing such a thing with brand new packages of D and E motors.

Who do you buy motors from, and what time of year? As @smstachwick stated, temperature cycles wreak havoc with these motors.

 

[lakeroadster]

Here you go...

https://www.hobbylinc.com/cgi-bin/s8.cgi?search_cat_s=&str_s=e16

https://www.hobbylinc.com/cgi-bin/s8.cgi?search_cat_s=&str_s=estes+f15

Thanks Bill.

 

[Steve Shannon]

China.
Like the way every heroin dealer cuts the quality of the product by adding baking soda or something, and then reselling the same product at 1/2 the quality to make more money, I suspect the Chinese factory that is pumping out all of Estes' product line is cutting back on the quality of materials, which includes the quality of the black powder, to make more profit. Although it seems like the Ferengi in Star Trek were meant to be (or turned into) a slanderous parody of Jewish people, I believe China has done a really good job embracing the Rules of Acquisition.

Your ignorance and assumicidal tendencies are on full display.
In the past few years Estes has been acquired by an upstanding family with a very strong background in model rocketry. They also purchased the Goex black powder factory in the United States after it was closed by its previous owner.

 

[smstachwick]

Easy…

 

[BABAR]

.
In the past few years Estes has been acquired by an upstanding family with a very strong background in model rocketry. They also purchased the Goex black powder factory in the United States after it was closed by its previous owner.

sounds like good business planning to me, kind of like a car company acquiring a steel company (or in today’s world, a battery company!)

 

[beeblebrox]

I had two recent CATOs with Estes BP motors where the nozzle blew out. This isn't saying to me that the powder is too powerful, it's saying to me that whatever glue they use to keep the nozzle in place is too weak. Like they are cutting back on the glue. I have another rocketeer who recommends to me that we all put a little ring of epoxy around the nozzle to hold things in place. While it seems that customer service is happy to provide replacement motors, when I informed them of that plan, they urged me not to modify the motors in any way as that voids the warantee. Nevertheless this other rocketeer who has epoxied the nozzle isn't experiencing CATOs.

This is *NOT* hard evidence and is circumstantial, I know. Won't hold up in court. Already aware.

That said, my experience has been that something is amiss, and I should not be experiencing such a thing with brand new packages of D and E motors.

Nozzles are not glued in, the nozzle material (clay) is pressed into the casing first then the BP charge is pressed in.

 

[Antares JS]

Here you go...

https://www.hobbylinc.com/cgi-bin/s8.cgi?search_cat_s=&str_s=e16

https://www.hobbylinc.com/cgi-bin/s8.cgi?search_cat_s=&str_s=estes+f15

Thanks Bill.

I would not advise buying those from Hobbylinc. Unless something has changed recently, they do not ship those motors hazmat like they are supposed to and accepting that shipment could make you subject to penalties if the PO gets wind.

 

[SolarYellow]

I've always only read of responsibility for a shipment being on the shipper. Unless you're taking delivery at the shipper's dock and arranging the shipment yourself, any problems are on them, AFAIK, until it is delivered to you. IANAL, obviously.

 

[cwbullet]

I would not advise buying those from Hobbylinc. Unless something has changed recently, they do not ship those motors hazmat like they are supposed to and accepting that shipment could make you subject to penalties if the PO gets wind.

The shipper is the one that would be fined.

 

[Antares JS]

The shipper is the one that would be fined.

I'm pretty sure if the customer receives the shipment knowing it was shipped illegally, they could be subject to penalties as well.

I could be wrong, but I'd rather be safe than sorry until I hear an answer from a legal authority.

 

[mh9162013]

knowing it was shipped illegally

Assuming the buyer could get into trouble, those would be the key words.

It's pretty easy for a buyer to assume ignorance in this situation.

 

[cwbullet]

The buyer rarely knows how the shipper will mark the box and ship it.

 

[lakeroadster]

I'm pretty sure if the customer receives the shipment knowing it was shipped illegally, they could be subject to penalties as well.

I could be wrong, but I'd rather be safe than sorry until I hear an answer from a legal authority.

 

[Antares JS]

View attachment 551246

The fist should be flaming or something to set it apart more.

 

[lakeroadster]

The fist should be flaming or something to set it apart more.

 

[Antares JS]

View attachment 551251

There ya go!

 

[dpower]

No complaints here about Estes! owned and run by folks that care about the hobby, active in NAR events, more motor choices than anytime in history, motors made in the U.S., frequent new kit designs, including scale(!), occasional bring-backs and upscales. The dark days of Tunic are long gone!

 

[PDawg]

I used over 125 Estes motors last year including 20+ E-12s, 5 F-15s, 8 D-12s, 12. B4/B6, and the rest mostly C6 along with 4 c5-3s and only one failure on a C6-5. The only other CATos I've seen were a few Quest motors at a club launch. I was expecting a much higher failure rate. The longer thrust duration has kept me from even considering Composites. The E-12s and F-15s are awesome with their 2.5 and 3.5 second burn times. I'm not into Estes rockets too much, but their motors have been awesome.