Dr. Zooch Return To Flight Space Shuttle build thread- #2

The Rocketry Forum

Help Support The Rocketry Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.
CHANGES coming for the orbiter:

I'm considering some changes for the orbiter to make it a bit more fun and less frustrating to fly. The "Low Rider" mod will allow me to make a few config. changes in the orbiter. I want to add a bit of dihedral and make the ailerons fixed, thus using just the body flap for trim.

Currently this is just a thought that I'll be testing out, and I'd like some opinions on it.
 
So the low rider variant is going in to production?

How much dihedral are you thinking?
 
The Low Rider mod. will go into production with the next run of kits, sometime in the next month or so. This is still provided that the mod. flies well on the stock FlameFins. I plan on doing that final test at MDRA's June launch. From what I saw with the aug fins, there's no real hint at any trouble- I just have to remember to put the right FlameFins in before they push the button this time :rolleyes:

The orbiter's fixed aileron mod. will still have to be extensivly tested. A test bed of sorts was built and has been extensivly flown already. That is the MSC-040 (Jenkins Designated) which is a simplified, smaller version of the kit STS orbiter. This orbiter was used in early testing of the fixed aileron mod. The MSC-040 is not currently for sale or planned as a part of any kit in the near future. Foose, however, does have one as he helps me out with a lot of testing. The amount of dihedral is still under review.

0404TRF.jpg
 
VEEERRRRYYYYY EEENNNTERRRESSS-TINK! :cool:

I'm looking forward to seeing what you've got coming there Doc...

Not sure about the dihedral, but the 'low rider' config sounds REAL good.

You're prototype looks like a good basis for a BURAN orbiter/stack! (HINT, HINT)

Later! OL JR :)
 
Actually it is based on early STS orbiters- get Jenkins' book "Space Shuttle" (a MUST for any shuttle buff) and you find it all over the place in there. I have no current plans for it- just wanted to see if I could build it, fly it and make it look cool. It ended up being a testbed for the fixed aileron work.

People often get the notion that everything I build has some implication toward a future kit... fact is I have my hands so darned full just keeping up with current kits that everything else keeps getting shoved backward.
 
Actually it is based on early STS orbiters- get Jenkins' book "Space Shuttle" (a MUST for any shuttle buff) and you find it all over the place in there. I have no current plans for it- just wanted to see if I could build it, fly it and make it look cool. It ended up being a testbed for the fixed aileron work.

People often get the notion that everything I build has some implication toward a future kit... fact is I have my hands so darned full just keeping up with current kits that everything else keeps getting shoved backward.

Hmmm... why the dihedral?? From what I've seen and heard they glide fine, so why mess it up with dihedral, or is this just a 'what if' exercise for you (to quote Dr. Emmett L. Brown, when asked if this is a train robbery, he replies, "It's a SCIENCE EXPERIMENT") My test glides all look good BTW and the orbiters are pretty easy to build as-is; adding dihedral, not so much.

Just curious... may be NOMDB... LOL:)

Just hinting that a Buran would be REALLY cool, not meaning to intimate that you have one in the works. Not fishing, honest!:D

Of course if you DID want to put one out, that would be:cool: EXTREMELY COOL! :cool:

Any more info on the Mark II Stage 0, BTW?? :D

Later! OL JR :)
 
Well, that's exactly the kind of in-put I'm looking for... does the orbiter assemble and fly good enough as it is?

Frankly, what set me off in this direction was that I built 2 orbiters in a row that simply refused to fly- so I decided to take a look at it.
 
My orbiter went together pretty easily, I had more trouble getting the SRB's on straight than with the orbiter.

This would make the build a little bit more complicated but you could do the body flap and elevons in 3 pieces and have the elevons set at a few degrees up angle, (should not affect the flight, I think your momentum theory holds up with the shuttle's weight and aerodynamics pretty well) and have the body flap provide the rest of the lift.

Adding dihedral or wing twist could make the build a mess. Even a couple of degrees would cause a lot of rocking if it was center line dihedral and if you went with polyhedral flat center and dihedral starting at the wing root the joints may not be as strong. The cross sections add a lot of reinforcing strength.

You've said before if it's not broke don't fix it. If it really improves performance than it might be worth it, but I do like the scale like glide of the current shuttle.
 
My orbiter went together pretty easily, I had more trouble getting the SRB's on straight than with the orbiter.

This would make the build a little bit more complicated but you could do the body flap and elevons in 3 pieces and have the elevons set at a few degrees up angle, (should not affect the flight, I think your momentum theory holds up with the shuttle's weight and aerodynamics pretty well) and have the body flap provide the rest of the lift.

Adding dihedral or wing twist could make the build a mess. Even a couple of degrees would cause a lot of rocking if it was center line dihedral and if you went with polyhedral flat center and dihedral starting at the wing root the joints may not be as strong. The cross sections add a lot of reinforcing strength.

You've said before if it's not broke don't fix it. If it really improves performance than it might be worth it, but I do like the scale like glide of the current shuttle.

Here's an up-date- You are right concerning the "twisting" with the dinedral. Testing shows that once just a few degrees is added all sorts of funky stuff begins to happen. Additionally, fixed ailerons with a moving body flap is even worse. That body flap- although great in transonic areas, is a real pill at low speeds. It's looking more and more like the best this is zero dihedran and zero anhedral.

I did build one with just everything fixed- fixed ailerons and a fixed zero elevation body flap. It has a small dihedral and the wings are slightly smaller. I'll fly that one this weekend and see what happens- just for fun.

It strikes me that I cannot change the orbiter's adjustable elevator anyhow... I still have about 1,800 of those nylon screws in stock :cyclops:
 
It strikes me that I cannot change the orbiter's adjustable elevator anyhow... I still have about 1,800 of those nylon screws in stock :cyclops:

Either that or you'll have to design another model to use them up...:D
 
The votes are in on the "Low Rider" conversion- it does work just fine with both the augment fins and the FlameFins.
 
That's cool... I'll have to build all future orbiters to fly on the low-rider config.

Thanks Doc!!! OL JR :)
 
The orbiter's fixed aileron mod. will still have to be extensivly tested. A test bed of sorts was built and has been extensivly flown already. That is the MSC-040 (Jenkins Designated) which is a simplified, smaller version of the kit STS orbiter. This orbiter was used in early testing of the fixed aileron mod. The MSC-040 is not currently for sale or planned as a part of any kit in the near future. Foose, however, does have one as he helps me out with a lot of testing. The amount of dihedral is still under review.


Mine is still under construction. I managed to get a little more work done on it this weekend. It is a little slow going because I have been trying to work up a booster design that resembles something in the Jenkins book. I'm counting on the low rider config to help stabilize the stack...that is theory anyway. I am a bit skeptical, but it should be fun trying. :)
 
Actually I used a lifting body to help stabalize a second stage that had just 2 fins on one side with the LB on the other. Although the first stage went unstable (due to the drop away SRB issue that we've talked about) the second stage flew just fine.

Would your booster be the MSC-021 by chance? I have a fully constructed one sitting here on my bench :D
 
Actually I used a lifting body to help stabalize a second stage that had just 2 fins on one side with the LB on the other. Although the first stage went unstable (due to the drop away SRB issue that we've talked about) the second stage flew just fine.

Would your booster be the MSC-021 by chance? I have a fully constructed one sitting here on my bench :D

"Paging Dr. Zooch... Paging Dr. Zooch... WE NEED PICS, STAT!!! "

"Paging Dr. Foose... Paging Dr. Foose... please report to the photo lab STAT!"

:D:D:D

Later! OL JR :)
 
Here's the LB on the second stage (insert). You can see that the stack went crazy prior to staging. Each SRB had a fin set inserted, but this was before I added the fence for stability. After staging, it straightened itself out and, although nearly horizontal, flew quite well.

000trfCRV2.jpg
 
Nope- not the MSC-021. I'm still going for the MSC-040...Phase C -Grumman . Traditional looking stack... but with fins on the ET.

Still have a few things to do before I can test the stack- add glider attach lugs and dowels, trim glider and permanently attach nose, add nose ballast to the ET cone, launch lugs, etc. I'm hoping to get those things done tomorrow and send it for a ride.

MSC-040.jpg

MSC-040-stack.jpg
 
Tied up the loose ends this morning. Added roughly 3/4 oz to the nose.

I'm satisfied with the shuttle trim. All it needed was a piece of clay the size of a pencil eraser(or one BB).

I sent it up on a B6-4 a little while ago. Winds about 8-10 mph. Wasn't the prettiest flight in the world, but it did go up(mostly). With help from the wind, it arched on it's back to about 55-60 degrees, and made a couple long corkscrews on the way up. I think I know what caused the corkscrew. With the 1/8" lugs and the toothpick diameter of the attach dowels, there is some slop that allows the shuttle to rock side to side. The fixed(relative to the shuttle) elevon surfaces become even more exaggerated when this occurs. Since the stability of the whole stack relies on the shuttle surfaces, the rocking motion is causing the stack to move accordingly.

Should be an easy fix, or at the very least, an easy way to test my theory. I'll just wrap a couple layers of tape around the attach dowels and take out some of that slop... being careful not to make it too snug and allowing for easy glider separation.
 
Last edited:
Sounds REALLY cool fooseman!!!

How bout those pics?? :D

Later and KUTGW!!! OL JR :)

I was by myself and couldn't get any pics of the first test flight. Today is windy and rain, tomorrow's forecast looks like more of the same. Might be Friday before I can make another attempt.
 
My orbiter had an interesting flight when checking out the Low Rider config. last Sunday. On that flight, all I was interested in was the boost, so I got one of my old worn orbiters to fly the test, because the part glide didn't matter.

The orbiter came off the stack normally, but instead of doing the normal tight spiral that this orbiter usually does, it "foose'ed" on me! It went straight as an arrow (like one of foose's gliders would do) and headed off the field... and directly toward the port-a-potty! There was a lady just coming out with her little daughter and they had the door open as the on-coming orbiter caught their attention. Lucky it ran out of energy a few yards shy of the outhouse and landed in the road, otherwise they both said it would have gone straight into the outhouse. :y:

So many puns can be attached to that flight that I'm not even gonna start... and neither should you folks.
 
My orbiter had an interesting flight when checking out the Low Rider config. last Sunday. On that flight, all I was interested in was the boost, so I got one of my old worn orbiters to fly the test, because the part glide didn't matter.

The orbiter came off the stack normally, but instead of doing the normal tight spiral that this orbiter usually does, it "foose'ed" on me! It went straight as an arrow (like one of foose's gliders would do) and headed off the field... and directly toward the port-a-potty! There was a lady just coming out with her little daughter and they had the door open as the on-coming orbiter caught their attention. Lucky it ran out of energy a few yards shy of the outhouse and landed in the road, otherwise they both said it would have gone straight into the outhouse. :y:

So many puns can be attached to that flight that I'm not even gonna start... and neither should you folks.

Ok, Ok... but I had a GOOD one... :D:D

I could see the Ares I headed for the pooper, but the shuttle... :jaw:

Later! OL JR :)
 
So many puns can be attached to that flight that I'm not even gonna start... and neither should you folks.

I now have seven of your kits in various stages of completion... so I reserve the right to make a bad pun when inspiration strikes. :neener:


I'm putting some finishing touches on my second shuttle kit, and, still keeping with the spirit of the "ant scale illusion", I've added a few cosmetic details for a slightly more scale appearance up-close. While I had the paint out, I also re-painted the ET on the first kit so it looks less like a milk chocolate Easter treat.

I moved the lugs on my Atlantis orbiter to the low-rider configuration. I also plan to go with the flame fins for this kit. I'll want to get in a few test flights before moving the lugs on the rest of my fleet... and then comes the boostervision camera :dark:

Here are a couple of pics of the nearly-completed stack.

D.

P1000843B.jpg

P1000839B.jpg
 
I now have seven of your kits in various stages of completion... so I reserve the right to make a bad pun when inspiration strikes. :neener:


I'm putting some finishing touches on my second shuttle kit, and, still keeping with the spirit of the "ant scale illusion", I've added a few cosmetic details for a slightly more scale appearance up-close. While I had the paint out, I also re-painted the ET on the first kit so it looks less like a milk chocolate Easter treat.

I moved the lugs on my Atlantis orbiter to the low-rider configuration. I also plan to go with the flame fins for this kit. I'll want to get in a few test flights before moving the lugs on the rest of my fleet... and then comes the boostervision camera :dark:

Here are a couple of pics of the nearly-completed stack.

D.

Wow!:eyepop: That looks fantastic. That's the best looking Zooch stack I've seen yet. Keep us posted on the flight.
 
That's the best looking Zooch stack I've seen yet.

Thanks - worst case scenario, I'll have the best looking debris field you've seen yet.

I didn't go too crazy with the details, as they do add weight. Also, the more time I put into this, the more terrified I'll be to fly it :y:

I have to give due credit to you guys for sharing the orbiter wraps, and of course to the Doc for his design, advice and support. Many thanks, guys.

I hope to get some video and pics of the launch when the weather is a bit more cooperative.

D.
 
...and a taste of things to come (screenshot). Holding the boostervision capsule I made for another rocket (Estes Eliminator) in place on the shuttle stack.

camera test 1.jpg
 
...and a taste of things to come (screenshot). Holding the boostervision capsule I made for another rocket (Estes Eliminator) in place on the shuttle stack.

Man, Dave, that looks AMAZING!!! What paint(s) did you use on the ET?? It REALLY looks terrific! Also, how did you do the highlighting of the ET intertank and the LOX cable tray detailing?? That looks SO cool!!!

Please share your secrets (and maybe a few more pics:))

Keep Up the Good Work! OL JR :)
 
:eyepop:
WOW!!!!!!
That is AMAZING!!!!!!!

That's the BEST version of my shuttle kit I have EVER seen!

Please tell me you compensated for the extra weight of the after-market wraps, because I don't want your orbiter to fly poorly.

Again... WOW!! WOW!! AMAZING!!! :eyepop:
 
Thanks OL JR :)

I tried a couple of different colours of spray paints, but they ended up looking very... toy-ish. I was afraid the thing was going to end up weighing too much if I put much more paint on, but then I found a bottle of Testors Model Master Acrylic in Yellow Ochre (#4214). I brushed it on, and it came out surprisingly smooth.

For the intertank section, I first painted it the same as the rest of the ET. Then I used another color of the Model Master paint, Panama Buf(#4221), with a bit of the Yellow Ochre mixed in. I used a fairly wide brush (with just a little bit of paint at a time) and lightly brushed perpendicular to the corrugations so the paint only caught the raised portions. Anywhere the paint got into the grooves, I gently scraped it once dry to expose the base color. I printed off some labels with a suitable color and cut strips for the upper and lower edges of the intertank section.

On the LOX cable tray, I cut tiny strips of label paper that I had printed a yellowish color on the computer and applied them to the ET. Then I used MS word to draw and print off the LOX cables (thin black line, a color close to the ET color, then another line), cut it with an exacto knife/steel ruler and applied it over the little strips from the previous step. I didn't go perfectly scale here, but it gives a good illusion. Anyone gets too close for a look while it's on the pad, and I'm launching the sucker!

I also added dowels along the outer sides of the SRBs, and the forward separation nozzles (also printed on label paper) and aft separation thrusters (sanded a couple of small pieces of balsa). Added a couple extra brackets to the aft shuttle attach assembly, and the point (tranquilizer dart to subdue the scale-critic types that get too close to all of this) on the tip of the nose cone as well.

I fashioned the ET aft dome from a piece of pink styrofoam insulation, then coated it with a layer of white glue to harden it and protect it from heat of lauch. Still pretty lightweight.

It would be impractical to make all of these details in a stock kit. The Doc gave us a great design, and it is an excellent canvas to play with for those of us with far too much time on our hands.


That's the BEST version of my shuttle kit I have EVER seen!

Thanks so much, Doc. This has to be my favorite kit ever!


Please tell me you compensated for the extra weight of the after-market wraps, because I don't want your orbiter to fly poorly.

I printed the fuselage, OMS pods, engines and nose section on 67lb cover stock paper. Printed the wing tops and bottoms and vertical stabilizer on inkjet label sheets... added a bit of white poster-mounting putty in the nose to balance, that's it. The Columbia orbiter that made the amazing glide on my most recent flight (seems like ages ago now) was constructed in this manner, so no worries there. It flew like a champ... fast and far... and probably didn't deviate more than 10 feet from a perfectly straight line. I don't have a sensitive scale, but it doesn't weigh much more than the stock version with the provided photorealisitc belly skin.

P1000861B.jpg
 
Back
Top