Cross Compatible Reloads

[constevens]

Don't know how to burst yall's bubble, but they [KBA] will fly in Kosdon hardare, I saw the m-3500red[m-2900] fly in kosdon hardware 7600 case at LDRS. so did you, if you were there monday. It was borrowed from F.K. himself and I loaded it. No one knew it though! And the KBA's [ from AT]are 25% less than the AMW loads. 30.00 vs 40.00 for a 640case......300.00 vs 400.00 for a 7600case M load. I will say no more.

As far as slag in skids..... Just soak the nozzle overnite in water..... 98% of it will come right off.....time is your friend here.

You miss the point. Its still nothing but a AT formulation in another manufactures case. Most all the people I know that WERE excited about KBA me included was that we would finally get our fix for Franks Fast/Slow and Dirty Harry. Not a cheap substitute that has "truely" nothing to really do with Kosdon but just a name Associated with AT formulas. Its nothing more then a stunt as far as im concerned as well as several others that know what the gig is. If AT wants my bussiness then they should work on getting along with other manufactures quit with the antics and care more about what can happen to the hobby and doing there thing and bring on the "true" kosdon motors by AT with Franks formulations.

 

[constevens]

FYI.....Gorilla loads will fly in AMW hardware just fine. You may not get every last drop of performance as used in the Gorilla case, but it works. If you were at Bong last weekend you would have been witness to that also. The long burn 54mm [5.2 secs] can't remember the load # flew in the 1750 case and nozzle.

Well this would actually be a violation of TRA and NAR cert code and regulation actually as they are not certed to fly this way. I know Jim and he has Class and he decided not to do cross cert casing stuff for that reason. he has pride and class in what he does not to get involved or do something like running his loads in others hardware. reguardless if the are the same or not. Same wth Loki. Its to bad At cant follow the same as to with respect of others and what they are doing.

 

[Todd Moore]

Its to bad At cant follow the same as to with respect of others and what they are doing.

It seems to me that AT is just following a competitive landscape that was tilled previously by other parties....

I don't agree with cross-compatible (never have) but at the same time, once the box is open, it's hard to close it again.

There may be other problems with how these NAR certs were done, but that is really removed from the ethical question here. The ethics of the situation are this; It has been deemed by some AHJ's and by way of the combined cert list that cross compatible reloads are fine with all organizations. I've seen commercial M motors manufactured by a company other than Aerotech flying in AT hardware at both NAR and TRA launches. If it wasn't fine, there should have been prohibitions against flying these combinations in both the TRA and NAR years ago with the situation first arose. Gary is simply leveraging this new attitude regarding cross compatible hardware to his advantage now that the box is open. There is nothing unethical or immoral about it. In fact, it would be dumb from a business perspective for him not to do so.

The only question I have is about using the KBA thing... While on one hand, it's hard to deny that the AMW casing is a 'Kosdon' TRM design, It's not hard to understand that the Kosdon name is being used for reasons other than what the original KBA brand was used for.

 

[deandome]

What was the evolution of AMW from it's Kosdon/Kosdon East roots like? Did (DO?) the AMW guys get along w/Kosdon? Did he feel p.o.'ed/betrayed when they set up their own company & used 'his' hardware?

The answers to this, at least for me, might affect/sway feelings on the "fairness" of all this. Maybe Kosdon got screwed, so he went to AT & this is his 'payback'. Maybe not.

People have implied that Kosdon is/was kind of a jerk, so maybe the AMW guys just wanted to get away from him. Maybe not.

You see where I'm going...even though I've been pretty much in the "AT is looking a bit too agressive" camp, maybe it's more complicated than that.

Maybe not.

 

[SpartaChris]

The only question I have is about using the KBA thing... While on one hand, it's hard to deny that the AMW casing is a 'Kosdon' TRM design, It's not hard to understand that the Kosdon name is being used for reasons other than what the original KBA brand was used for.

Yes, but why is this an issue when both AT and Dr. Kosdon are in agreement to use his name in exactly this manner?

 

[blackjack2564]

Ben........

3 Gorilla re-poads were flown in the AMW1400 and 1750 cases and nozzles. They all performed well. So you decide for yourself.
If you have any background in EX, you will note that as long as the propellant is well characterized, and pressures are within the boundries of the cases, you can change the grain geometry and core size, to make it work in ALMOST anything.
That is what EX'ers do. Make propellant to be used in existing hardware, be it AT, Loki, AMW etc. It just happens to be much cheaper ans easier to use snap ring, graphite nozzle hardware than screw on hardware due to the re-usable facter.
A nozzle and liner for AT can run 40.00 plus 35.00 for a M motor, plus you have to machine the nozzle yourself[ throat and exit ] vs 8.00 for a liner and nothing for the nozzle if you have snap ring hardware. O rings are only a buck or two in either case.
That's what AT did with their KBA stuff, it is just white lightning and redline {a well proven propellant] that has been re-configured to use AMW hardware. Don't be too suprised that once the white and red catch on, they will most likely introduce green and blue.
I doubt that they will ever introduce sparkies simply because they are just too low of a total impulse motor for the case size. [not alot of performance for the amount of fuel burned realatively speaking] and a pain inthe butt to make.
Any other fuel in a given case= more performance. This is the extremely simple version in laymen's terms.
But only time will tell.

And as they say......THIS IS ROCKET SCIENCE and what it is really all about anyhow. That's why I got into rocketry it in the first place. To finally have a reason to use all that math and calc. I had to take in school years ago, and finally make some sense of it all!

So dust off the old books and do some reading, and it will all make sense.

Enough said.

 

[Todd Moore]

Yes, but why is this an issue when both AT and Dr. Kosdon are in agreement to use his name in exactly this manner?

Oh, I just mean it totally looks like marketing over substance.... Not that there is anything wrong with it... I'm just curious as to why this was done. Nothing wrong with it, IMO....

 

[blackjack2564]

So that after all these years F.K.could collect royalties and everyone involved could make some money. And originally AMW and Kosden were associated.

 

[jderimig]

Ben........

3 Gorilla re-poads were flown in the AMW1400 and 1750 cases and nozzles. They all performed well. So you decide for yourself.

That is a violation of TRA regular and Research Safety Codes.

Section 9.5.1 No?

 

[gorillamotors]

3 Gorilla re-poads were flown in the AMW1400 and 1750 cases and nozzles. They all performed well. So you decide for yourself.

And just where were these 3 Gorilla reloads launched at??

Jim Harris
Gorilla Motors

 

[ben]

And just where were these 3 Gorilla reloads launched at??

Jim Harris
Gorilla Motors

Jim Honestly, i was wonderin about cross compatibility so I could fly AMW motors in some of your hardware. You do have cheaper hardware. And your sparkies seem more sparky than others.

Ben

 

[gorillamotors]

Jim Honestly, i was wonderin about cross compatibility so I could fly AMW motors in some of your hardware. You do have cheaper hardware. And your sparkies seem more sparky than others.

Ben

My hardware is identical to AMWs except for the nozzle. My reloads are not certified in AMWs and AMWs reloads have not been certified in mine. Warranty is voided using any other motor than Gorillas.

In order to receive any replacements the following MUST be met:
1. Use only Gorilla reloads in Gorilla hardware
2. Absolutely DO NOT clean up the motor. After removing motor from rocket you must seal and package the hardware as is. Absolutley NO cleanup. Cleanup VOIDS any warranty.
3. Contact me by email and I will tell you where to send it.

If you say my sparkies are sparkier then why do you want to use another sparky motor?

Jim

 

[constevens]

It seems to me that AT is just following a competitive landscape that was tilled previously by other parties....

I don't agree with cross-compatible (never have) but at the same time, once the box is open, it's hard to close it again.

There may be other problems with how these NAR certs were done, but that is really removed from the ethical question here. The ethics of the situation are this; It has been deemed by some AHJ's and by way of the combined cert list that cross compatible reloads are fine with all organizations. I've seen commercial M motors manufactured by a company other than Aerotech flying in AT hardware at both NAR and TRA launches. If it wasn't fine, there should have been prohibitions against flying these combinations in both the TRA and NAR years ago with the situation first arose. Gary is simply leveraging this new attitude regarding cross compatible hardware to his advantage now that the box is open. There is nothing unethical or immoral about it. In fact, it would be dumb from a business perspective for him not to do so.

The only question I have is about using the KBA thing... While on one hand, it's hard to deny that the AMW casing is a 'Kosdon' TRM design, It's not hard to understand that the Kosdon name is being used for reasons other than what the original KBA brand was used for.

Todd, I will agree that Gary didnt open the Box. we all (or maybe some of us do) know who originally did... Cough further north...Cough. But as I remember CAR was the Certifying agency and due to cross recognized certs it became NAR and TRA recognized. So I cant really even say it was a NAr or TRA issue to begin with other then cross recognition. I also remember Gary being pretty upset about the issue and told them they could not do so and he did try to resist that issue but lost out to CAR certification. Anyhow seems as though the issue is the shoe is on the other foot and because the closeness between CTI and AMW Gary has stricken at AMW. I still say that just because you put a propellant in a case shouldn't give you the ability to say its KBA. Especially when its not. Come on, for real. its Aerotech in AMW hardware. not Kosdon "Truly Recyclable Motors" No Kosdon propellants, and really to be honest there is a difference is Frank hardware and AMW. They may look alike but they arent. Besides didnt Aerojet use that design even before Frank? Im sure they did. Aerotech might as well say Its KBA for AMW... Loki... Gorilla... Kosdon... If Gary is going to switch hardware which Im sure he isnt but lets say he is. What about the support and loads for ALL those folks that have invested in Aerotech/Dr Rocket/Rouse Tech hardware? What about the vendors that have it on their shelves? Speaking of the hardware manufactures... are they ready to spend and retool or get hosed? I just dont see it happening. Again Im pretty sure for gary to do this every reload he has that would be flown in the snap-ring style cases would have to be re-certed. The thrust profiles will change they will not even be the same motor as the At design rely s on the plastic high erosive nozzle. Alot of work and money to make it happen. Again if they want to do this atleast put a REAL Kosdon propellant in it.

 

[constevens]

That is a violation of TRA regular and Research Safety Codes.

Section 9.5.1 No?

Exactly what I stated earlier... John.

Im Curious as to lets say something did happen when these loads were flown. (not saying it will) just a possibility let alone ive seen a many motors fail. But if it were to cause a liability where would we be as TRA or as the club that permitted such. If it was a NON-TRA event and was a private event with NO club or national Orgs involved then not much can be said. But if done otherwise its not right.

 

[constevens]

Its to bad that more of the TRF folk here dont have the whole inside track on the History of Kosdon and Kosdon East-then become AMW and Aertoech with KBA. So much missing info. but I will be honest. Not one for wanting to get into that conversation even though I know. Also probably why most the others that know have not posted here or the ones that have that do wont say either. Again as Ron Zeppin said. Cant we all get along.

 

[daveyfire]

"Animal Style" Aerotech motors.

https://www.in-n-out.com/secretmenu.asp

Yum.

 

[ben]

My hardware is identical to AMWs except for the nozzle. My reloads are not certified in AMWs and AMWs reloads have not been certified in mine. Warranty is voided using any other motor than Gorillas.

In order to receive any replacements the following MUST be met:
1. Use only Gorilla reloads in Gorilla hardware
2. Absolutely DO NOT clean up the motor. After removing motor from rocket you must seal and package the hardware as is. Absolutley NO cleanup. Cleanup VOIDS any warranty.
3. Contact me by email and I will tell you where to send it.

If you say my sparkies are sparkier then why do you want to use another sparky motor?

Jim

I would like to use AMW's blue's. They are NICE in 54mm. Other than that I will use sparkies only. My friend has a 54/1050 that has 10 sparky and 2 red flight on it!

Ben

 

[deandome]

My hardware is identical to AMWs except for the nozzle.
Jim

Alas...does this mean that you have the same problem with Slimline motor retainers that AMW has?

It woulda been nice to see you tweak things a LITTLE to handle that...but then again, it woulda been nice for GL to tweak their design a little, as I imagine it would be a lot easier for them than for you

 

[Hospital_Rocket]

If you say my sparkies are sparkier then why do you want to use another sparky motor?

We need to have a contest on naming the appropriate unit of measure for how sparky a motor is.


I was thinking maybe

• Sparcnicity
• Knobtricity
• Waykooliness

Any other equally stupid ideas? I wonder if we could get S&T to make it part of the certification process.

:rotflol:

 

[edwardw]

I think to test the sparkiness of a motor it needs to be tested horizontally, with banks of Estes motors placed at 10, 20, 30 yard intervals behind it with the nozzles facing the motor. Then it would be easy to see how many motors it lights, ie, I've to a rating of 45 Estes

Edward

 

[KermieD]

I think to test the sparkiness of a motor it needs to be tested horizontally, with banks of Estes motors placed at 10, 20, 30 yard intervals behind it with the nozzles facing the motor. Then it would be easy to see how many motors it lights, ie, I've to a rating of 45 Estes

Edward

:rotflol: :rotflol:

 

[ben]

I think to test the sparkiness of a motor it needs to be tested horizontally, with banks of Estes motors placed at 10, 20, 30 yard intervals behind it with the nozzles facing the motor. Then it would be easy to see how many motors it lights, ie, I've to a rating of 45 Estes

Edward

Brilliant! :rotflol:

 

[gorillamotors]

FYI.....Gorilla loads will fly in AMW hardware just fine. You may not get every last drop of performance as used in the Gorilla case, but it works. If you were at Bong last weekend you would have been witness to that also. The long burn 54mm [5.2 secs] can't remember the load # flew in the 1750 case and nozzle.

Where is Bong? And where have you witnessed my reloads flying in AMW hardware?

I have sold quite a few sparkies for the 54/1050, 1400, and 1750, and have sold quite a few greens for the 54/1050 but I have sold only one of the K222WC long burns for the 54/1400 and one of the K327WC long burns for the 54/1750. The XX black phenolic liner for the long burn motors is on backorder and takes about 6-8 weeks to get delivered. I don't know about the sparkies or the greens if AMW hardware was used but I do know for a fact the one K222WC was flown in Gorilla hardware (I witnessed it myself) and the one K327WC was sent to LDRS 2007 but was never flown there. It was sent back to the owner and he still has it in his possession.

Jim Harris
Gorilla Motors

 

[deandome]

Bong Rec Area is in southern Wisconsin: https://www.dnr.state.wi.us/org/land/parks/specific/bong/maps.html https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Bong_State_Recreation_Area

They were building an air force base after WWII, but it got cancelled right before they poured the runways. But the runway's still there cuzza all the gravel...that's where we launch from. It's not a dry lake bed, and there are certainly tree lines to worry about, but it's still the best we have all year round (unlike the farms where they hold Midwest Power...you hafta wait till the harvest is done).

It's great, cuz it's not a forest preserve, but a state park that allows all sortsa stuff; hunting, dirt bikes RC airplanes, snowmobiles....and it's close enough for illinois people like me to get there easily. Two clubs (Tripoli WI, and WOOSH, a NAR chapter) launch there, so there are are 2-3 launch days each month during spring-fall...and some in winter, too.

Tim 'Wildman' Lehr has exclusive on-site vending rights at all those launches

 

[blackjack2564]

Gorillamotors..........check your PM.

 

[wolfstar]

The snap-ring style motor is not patented. However, Kosdon was threatened with a lawsuit by Aerotech and the result was a settlement to license the Kosdon brand. Aerotech also had an agreement with AMW's owner, but apparently that went away with Aerotech and was not carried over to RCS, although the same person owns the company. Fuzzy things like that are usually decided in a Court of Law.

I'll have to check,but I think that Snap ring in motor are not first used by Kosdon, I do think it was NASA. If that true kinda hard to Patented.

It maybe to late, The Giant has awakened!:surprised:

Me, I love to see a 24mm or 29mm Skidmarks!!!

Round 3, ding!

 

[ben]

Round 3, ding!

HEY! That is my line. :fight: One more and I'm throwing ya out!

Ben

 

[constevens]

I'll have to check,but I think that Snap ring in motor are not first used by Kosdon, I do think it was NASA. If that true kinda hard to Patented.

It maybe to late, The Giant has awakened!:surprised:

Me, I love to see a 24mm or 29mm Skidmarks!!!

Round 3, ding!

The first was I believe (and im pretty sure) was Aerojet.

 

[Art Upton]

The first was I believe (and im pretty sure) was Aerojet.

Yup

Edit for added info:

In fact I think they called themselves AeroJet General as in General Tires.

"Someday you'll own Generals" was always a blurb on the saturday racing on TV in the late 60s
...............................

 

[LFLekx]

My biggest worry about cross-compatability isn't with the manufacturers of either the hardware or the reloads... but with the policies of the various rocketry organizations.

If I put an AT reload into an AMW case, will some RSO say to me - "You can't fly that today... since it's not in an AT case, it's considered to be EX." Despite the fact that it's been certified for use in that case, not everybody may have gotten the message.