Computers... Then and NOW

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I am in fact still able to assemble working PCs from purchased parts but really don't bother coding anything these days. The new kids do the job well enough so...

It was fun back then but now I find better ways to fill my retirement years. There's a message in that.
 
Exactly... that's the point I was making when posting about the cotton marketing issues...

When computers were first coming down into the "everyday" realm, with the promise of computers being more than clunky mainframes connected to workstations, the promise was that when computers were commonplace, they'd make life SO much easier that we'd only be working 20-30 hours a week and have at least three days a week off and society would go practically paperless. Now, here we are, a few decades later, and folks are working 50-60 hours a week is fairly commonplace, and now with cell phones, nobody has a MINUTE of privacy... I remember when cell phones first started becoming rather common... seemed you couldn't go to a restaurant or movie theatre without SOME up-n-coming go-getter type, usually either in business, or especially real-estate, sitting behind you or at the next table constantly gabbing on the phone... and they were LOUD too... I always got the distinct impression folks did that to show off-- "Hey, look at me... I've got a cell phone! See how impressive and important I am-- everybody NEEDS to get ahold of me and I'm so important I cannot be more than 5 minutes from access by phone at any time... I'm rich and important!" (gag). Anyway, now that they're everywhere, the newness has worn off and a degree of etiquette has returned...

I guess I'm just Amish about it, but when it's time to eat, or I'm in a movie theatre, I don't care if the President is calling... I turn the phone off... when I'm in church, I leave it in the car charging. I simply DO NOT answer the phone during meal or leisure times, period. I've gotten to where if I don't recognize the number, I don't answer, and now that these idiot salespeople are calling, if I DO happen to answer and get "hello, I'm from XYZ... " I just immediately hang up. I know land lines are passe, but we have one in the house, but I DO NOT answer the phone... if you want to talk to me, you talk to the answering machine first. If I hear it's someone I know and want to talk to them (not busy otherwise) I will pick up the phone and start conversing. Otherwise, they can go pound sand... LOL:)

AS for the "promise" of computers, just chalk it up to another empty promise of technology that never happened... when nuclear power was first invented, we were all promised we'd be off the grid in 20 years... just go to Montgomery Ward, pick up a backyard reactor the size of a water heater, dig a hole in the backyard, drop it in the ground, hook the wires up to the house, fill in the hole, and presto! free electricity for 20 years... when the thing was depleted, get another one... Then of course there were flying cars, and jetpacks... WE WERE PROMISED JETPACKS!!! I still remember when they were building the nuke plant my old man worked at when I was a kid-- the talk of "electricity too cheap to meter" and all that BS...

I've learned to look at technology with a jaundiced eye... it's EXTREMELY rare that it works out as advertised... all the hoopla about genetic engineering and GMO crops and the way "the system" has been set up, basically you sign your rights away and become a serf on your own land to the company holding the patents... no thanks... it'll be the same if anything ever comes out of stem cell research or nanotech or any of a hundred other "up-n-coming" technologies...

It's no wonder more and more people are becoming Luddites... I don't particularly advocate it, but I understand it... it's all about balance and how technology affects our lives... if it doesn't SUBSTANTIALLY improve it, I pass on it...

Later! OL JR :)
 
+1

Ain't nothing but pretty smart appliances these days.

...and they lied about the jetpacks. That was the cruelest cut of all.
 
Punched cards were fun. Sitting at a big machine in battleship grey (with a little IBM blue accent), with cigarette burns all over its table. Or, before sitting down, finding one that worked with all the keys you wanted to use (hey, it was a university facility, what can I say?). Buying packs of blank cards from a vending machine. Of finding it empty because lots of non computer people would buy blank cards as a substitute for note cards. Watching grad students with huge card decks drop them. The grad student with a huge deck where one card near the end just wouldn't load, and s/he'd keep trying to load it, while a line of students formed behind them.

I only saw papertape on the typesetter at the newspaper I worked at, and on the HP mini-computer that my friend at the Genetics department ran.

I wrote programs for Windows 1.0 (not many... it was too painful), and would've written programs in 1984 for the Mac, except that Steve Jobs wanted $3000 for the SDK.
 
I had a friend who was a Computer Science major in the early 1970's.
The punch card machines and card reader were in the basement of the Math
building. People would submit their cards for reading, then wait for the
programs to run and the output to print out. So there were lots of people
camped out in the hallways waiting for things to happen. One time,
he took a whole box of punched cards up to the card reader to be submitted,
and just before he got there he tripped over someone who was sitting in the hallway
and dropped the box, spilling them all over the floor. He then made
quite a scene, to everyone's horror. When he had calmed down a little, a few
brave souls started helping him pick them up, and that's when they began to
realize they were all blank. What a joker.
 
the promise was that when computers were commonplace, they'd make life SO much easier that we'd only be working 20-30 hours a week and have at least three days a week off and society would go practically paperless

I see some aspects of this in my daily life. In my work I am much more efficient- I can get more work done in the same amount of time but unfortunately now I have more work to do for the same pay, but even worse there are too many people in my profession so now most people don't have enough work and my company doesn't have any work.

In my personal life the computer has generated new things to do, meaning reading forums and such on the internet. But the information quickly available on the internet has made a lot of things easier and quicker.
 
fortran and cobol on punch cards.

the first computer I owned was an ohio scientific that came with 4 K of ram and used cassettes. I built a board for it that upgraded the memory to 32 K. I thought no one would ever need more memory than that! part of the board would have contained a floppy drive controller put i couldn't afford a drive, so I didn't finish that part.
 
The first computer I used was the homemade computers my dad made. And when I mean homemade, I dont mean buy a motherboard, cpu, video card... No, Im talking about getting a project board (a sheet of fiberglass with bunch of holes drilled in it, hand wire all the circuts with soldering iron and wire. OS and programming language made from scratch. Early 80's he upgraded the computer by building a new one, this time the circuit board was made with tape, pad stickers, and a trip to a copy shop to get a reduced positive, and used the photo emulation stuff to make the circuit board. Primary purpose of that computer was to run a CAD program he wrote called P3 (which was primarily used to make circuit boards for his other projects) in the native language he wrote for the computer. He used that till he got his first 286 (it may of been a 386) where he rewrote P3 in C. Still uses his P3 program to this day:

ap4.jpg
ap4.jpg


My first computer I owned was a Tandy CoCo3. 8088 processor, cassette tape used to load and save data and programs. Computer also had a cartridge slot which was used for games and add on like a music card, and networking cards. Guys at radio shack said we couldn't connect an amega monitor to it. My dad made an adapter card which was placed in the expansion bay. Finally got rid of that monitor last year, screen turned brown.

I remember my first hard drive. 360 MB. Took two full bays and had a HUGE hard drive controller card. This went into my 386

I remember the day I got my first CD-ROM drive, i had to find someone who had office 95 on CD because disk 23 could not be read, which aborted the install (office 95 had 24 floppies. Disk 24 was the powerpoint view). Blasted 1.7 MB format on floppies was VERY unreliable.

I remember when I got my first DVD drive... was hard pressed to find a dvd codec that worked on a K6-2.

Now we live in the world where Windows 7 replaced Vista, Macs are now fast (but still WAY overpriced), 64bit has become standard and widely supported, and and and .... lol
 
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Before that I had a copy of Windows 286 and before that Windows 2.0 (so there must have been a Windows 1.0, but I never saw it). The 2.0 version ran under DOS and basically used extended ASCII characters to make things look "graphical". All I remember about the "286" version is that after loading in all the floppies...the PC locked up.

Does anyone remember moving the little applet windows using the Alt-Minus keystroke, selecting Move, and then using the arrow keys to move the window?

No, neither 1.0 or 2.0 used extended ascii characters, at least the way that IBM's TopView did. But Microsoft was constrained by the rectangular pixels of IBM's 640x200 screen, while Apple specified their own hardware and got more or less square pixels and proportional fonts. The memory mapped architecture of the IBM Graphics Adapters (and clones) meant that using fixed width fonts went a lot faster. As graphics hardware for the PC improved by '87, Win 2.0 took advantage of it and allowed proportional fonts for applications and improved device independence allowed square pixels and more colors, but Apple still had the edge. In the late 80's, Microsoft and IBM had a combined graphics group in Ireland that had completely revamped the graphics engine for OS/2 and Microsoft then ported it to Windows 3.0, and it was finally on par with Apple as far as windowing graphics was concerned.

Alt-Minus gave way to Alt-Spacebar M a long time ago

Another interesting thing about Windows 1.0 was that Microsoft was afraid of copyright infringement suits from Apple and used tiled, not overlapping, windows. But users and developers wanted overlapping, and, after being assured that Apple couldn't win any such suit (and when they did sue, they did lose), they went to overlapping windows with Win 2.0. Now with Windows 8, the new Metro interface is a return to tiled windows.

AZylWfCCEAE1CkA-500x337.jpg
 
All this talk about old computers has brought back some memories for me.

I remember banging out a word processing program on a VIC-20 with tape drive. That took about a half a day to type in, but it ran very well. Lots of games on that too, including TANK.

Then I had a 486 and boy was that a special day. The thing ran so fast, I wasn't sure what could ever be faster. That's also when I discovered the wonderful thing called the Internet. This was an internet full of links, useful information, free of ads, digital pictures didn't exist, and you had to have good knowledge on how to work it. The modern-day internet just can't compare.

Years later, the Techmedia P200 came along and I did my first upgrade. a sound blaster on ISA bus. I actually had SOUND coming from the computer.

----------

I read the luddite comment and I found myself agreeing with it pretty handedly. Not a whole lot to say about it, just wish that they kept what was good about the technology we used twenty years ago and didn't bastardize it into what it is today. Nowadays the information you find on the internet is terrible, polarized or just a mess. same goes with most of the websites too. very little real content, mostly flotsam.
 
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I was just thinking about this topic! I just registered for university classes for the summer and it made me think around to the first time when I filled out admissions papers by mail, walked around a big gym and picked up punch cards for each course (and exchanged them if the schedule didn't work out. At the end of the line turning in the cards was officially registration. Later in the week I stopped by the accounts office and paid the entire balance for fees and tuition that my financial aid didn't cover.

The second time around I filled out admissions paperwork and dropped it off. I registered most semesters by phone and paid my tuition by waiting in line at the payment office.

This time around I went through the admissions process online. I was waived from the $40 admissions fee because the system recognized me from when I last attended almost 20 years ago. When I was through with that part I had a username, password, campus email address, personal campus website, personal blog, pin number (that I apparently need to change every 60 days), and something called blackboard and clicker that I suppose are for taking online courses. I registered for classes yesterday and had to call a friend to make sure that I was even registered and then I called in one of my teens because I couldn't for the life of me figure out how to check my campus email. (I consoled myself with the fact that he had to hunt for it too). Payment can be done by echeck or in person by cash, check, or money order plus it can be paid in installments.

I definitely didn't miss the punch cards.

This is where I started. Still have it in the attic.

View attachment 83296

.

That was my first introduction to computers with a machine purchased by science club at the high school where I worked. Us teachers would take turns taking it home at night to work on. A few years down the road the school finally bought computers for use by the teachers.
 
Exactly... that's the point I was making when posting about the cotton marketing issues...

When computers were first coming down into the "everyday" realm, with the promise of computers being more than clunky mainframes connected to workstations, the promise was that when computers were commonplace, they'd make life SO much easier that we'd only be working 20-30 hours a week and have at least three days a week off and society would go practically paperless. Now, here we are, a few decades later, and folks are working 50-60 hours a week is fairly commonplace, and now with cell phones, nobody has a MINUTE of privacy...
...
AS for the "promise" of computers, just chalk it up to another empty promise of technology that never happened...
...
...
I've learned to look at technology with a jaundiced eye... it's EXTREMELY rare that it works out as advertised...

all the hoopla about genetic engineering and GMO crops and the way "the system" has been set up, basically you sign your rights away and become a serf on your own land to the company holding the patents... no thanks... it'll be the same if anything ever comes out of stem cell research or nanotech or any of a hundred other "up-n-coming" technologies...

It's no wonder more and more people are becoming Luddites... I don't particularly advocate it, but I understand it... it's all about balance and how technology affects our lives... if it doesn't SUBSTANTIALLY improve it, I pass on it...

Later! OL JR :)

While I agree with a lot of what JR has to say, I also disagree with a lot of it. I think the fundamental fact of the world is that those with money make the rules, and the point of their game is to make more money and amass more power. So, "too cheap to meter" electricity and other concepts without a business model that would make sense for the people developing/implementing them are by definition, non-starters.

But computers have done a lot to improve my life, and I daresay the lives of my family and friends such as you folks.

First, without computers, or the fairly recent developments in the internet and home-based access to it, I wouldn't have you all to chat with about rockets and life in general. I wouldn't have open rocket, rocksim or the ability to create, view, and share pictures like I did in my launch report yesterday.

When my son banged his head on the doorjamb, and there was no appropriate physician on-staff that late night to read the x-ray, they sent the pics over the network to another hospital where a specialist was able tell us not to worry. This saved us a lot of worry and potentially a night at the hospital with a two year old boy.

When my wife had a 104F fever a few days after delivering that boy, computers were deeply involved in interpretting the results and coming up with treatments that saved her life.

Stem cell: it's not an empty promise; I've worked with a couple folks alive today due to stem cell research. They wouldn't be around without it. It's not a panacea, but it's important technology that has been handcuffed far too long.

Oh yeah, back to computers: hobby lobby coupons on a smartphone!

If we think any technology is going to change our society for the better, we're largely wrong. It's us who need to change the society. Technology just gives us more powerful tools to do so.

Marc
 
Kids...

Who remembers core memory?
Who remembers plated wire memory?
Who remembers magnetic storage drums?
Who remembers when punched paper tape was a big improvement?
 
I made 2 replies. Both highly critical of JR and their ilk. In the end I trashed them. Marc said it better and perhaps less critical. When people try to take away guns because of murder, the gun owners rightly point out, that guns do not kill anyone - they are inanimate objects. Well it's the same with SCIENCE and TECHNOLOGY (they are inseparable because the former begats the latter). They are tools. People decide how to use them. And in so so so so so many ways we are far far far far better off than returning to the dark ages.

Thx Marc. You said it better. :handshake:
 
I was pretty sure I remembered my Compuserve address so just for the heck of it I Googled it (73320.1253). I got five hits!

Mine was 70245,1037. Originally you used a comma. The Compuserve servers were DEC machines, and the user accounts were pairs of octal (base 8) numbers. When Compuserve hooked into the Internet, they changed the comma to a dot.

The google hits on mine have dwindled to only two, as part of a list of email addresses offered to spammers.
 
Thanks Jeff!

But, I hope I didn't sound at all critical of JR or others... I agree with a lot of the things they said, though I stand with a different perspective and perhaps a stronger appreciation for the areas where the reality comes close to or exceeds the promise of technology.

I actually love reading JR's accounts of how technology and evolving business have impacted the farming paradigm in the U.S.A.. I was peripherally aware of many of the things he has cited, but his first-hand, visceral accounting brought home the experience much more dramatically than what I get from a NOVA special or documentary.

And on one thing I most strongly agree: WE WERE PROMISED JET PACKS!
jetpack.jpg
 
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I hear ya... don't get me wrong... the telecommunications revolution and information revolution have REALLY measurably improved our lives... I grew up in the 70's when it seemed that for the better part of a decade all there was on TV was the Watergate hearings, ABSCAM, the winddown in Vietnam, Cambodia, high gas prices, Middle East turmoil, OPEC, and Cold War nuclear war scares... I remember rotary phones and party lines, and being in the country, my grandparents phone high on the bedroom wall, the ONLY phone in the house, a huge rotary monstrosity the size of one of those old phone booth ones... (how many here remember phone booths!??) I remember when we FINALLY got off the party line system and didn't have to have the nosy old Czech neighbor ladies listening in on all your calls, when the first touch-tone phones started coming in out in the country, and new fangled "video games" like the Atari 2600 and such came out... when I was in 7th grade a friend of mine in school got something called a "Coleco-vision" that played video games and he lived, eat, and breathed nothing but video games. I remember that being a big deal, because prior to that you had to go to the pool hall in town that had some video game machines in the back... "quarter eaters"... and that's all there was (well, I remember having "PONG" back in the late 70's and thinking THAT was the pinnacle of entertainment... sure wish I still had the original PONG console...) Getting to play video games nonstop over a weekend sleepover at a buddies house-- unheard of! When I was a freshman in high school, *I* bought the first VCR in our family... a "top loader" VHS model from Sears that I paid $350 for, way back in about 1986... and believe me when I tell you-- $350 in '86 was BBBBIIIIIGGGG MONEY back then!!! (that was my farm income share for the YEAR!) The rest of the family liked renting tapes SO much that they'd come over to Grandma's house (where I lived) and watch movies to the wee small hours of the morning and keep us awake all night while I was trying to get sleep for school... don't know how my brother and sister managed to go to school... (Dad worked a weird shift with 4 days on, 4 days off, 3 days on, 1 day off, 3 days on, 4 days off, then repeat... so he was off every other week most of the week and would stay up all night at will). FINALLY after a year or so they bought their own VCR after nearly wearing mine out... We got a camcorder that year too... a big honkin' VHS one the size of a professional camera that the local TV station reporters use nowdays... recorded a lot of stuff on that old bugger... When I was a senior, I bought a DIGITAL Toshiba VCR... you could "freeze frame" regular TV shows as they were broadcast (without taping them, like a DVR today) which was high-tech in 89 for a country boy! Went in partners with my mom on the family's first computer... I put in $500, she put in $500 (which was HUGE money in 88!)... an old Radio Shack Tandy 1000... had a clock speed of a whopping 4 MHz, 512 K of RAM, and dual floppy drives... the only thing I used it for was flying "F-19 Stealth Fighter" Microsoft simulator game on there, bombing the heck out of Iran and Libya and Eastern Poland... (fun game... wish I could find it nowdays!) After high school when I was in mechanic's school, I bought a pocket color TV that my buddies and I watched the Gulf War 1 on (Desert Storm) back in early 91 while we ate our lunch (supper actually, since I went to the 1-9:30 PM sessions). Paid like $150 for that, which wasn't too bad... found it in the attic a couple years ago, apparently in good shape, but there's no signals for it to receive anymore...) I remember back when CARPHONES were exactly that... for the CAR... had a buddy of my dad's that I was partner in a hay meadow with (he owned the land, I provided the work, we split the hay) that had a carphone in his little Toyota pickup... this was when a carphone came in a big pack about the size of a small softsided lunch cooler nowdays (about big enough to hold a six pack). Thought that was pretty cool, but INSANELY expensive at the time!) I remember when my folks first got internet in the early to mid-90's, the old dial-up that was PAINFULLY slow (14.4 baud modems and all that, and then came 28.8 modems and we thought we'd died and gone to heaven... LOL:)) I remember when my mom got addicted to ICQ (instant messaging "chat" type thing) and I started "computer dating", and ended up getting married to my wife in 2000 after meeting her on the internet and being 'penpals' for a year via email, and dating "IRL" for a few months... which was a good thing for someone who is fairly shy and was PAINFULLY shy at the time!

Nowdays, it's a whole different world... I can read messages on here from various rocketeers from around the WORLD who share the same interests and have interesting stories to tell, questions to ask, or information to share, and I can ask my own or answer as best I can to try to help out... I remember when "research" was going to the library and checking out every Bill Gunston book you could find on rockets, missiles, and military hardware, and trying to glean as much information as you could to build a new or interesting design for a rocket that caught your eye... NOW I can go look at stuff written by Von Braun and other luminaries of the space program on the NASA Technical Resource Server of actual stuff they thought about, modifications they proposed to existing hardware, designs they tried to get approval to build, or things that sadly never got beyond the paper... Heck I can look up North Korean missile designs, Red Chinese nuclear missiles, look at India's nuclear weapon and missile designs, the latest Russian space booster projects, heck even thier proposals that never got built, all without leaving the computer chair across the room... it's AMAZING... and its TOTALLY taken for granted by kids nowdays... heck by most of us adults to, who, if they're like me and only about 41, should remember the days when basically the only information you had any realistic access to was probably in the reference section of your local library, which for us country folks was 5 miles away for even the "branch" library and 15 miles to the county library... and beyond that...??? I didn't get a cell phone of my own (used my wife's sometimes) until around 2001/2, after I was married... my folks had gotten them, but I was behind the curve on that one... still not thrilled with them (seems the more advanced they get, the more mucked up they get-- but then I'm getting older and "more crotchety" with technology than I used to be...) I remember when a phone call was something you did from home, or if you could beg the person behind the counter at the store to let you make a LOCAL call... (back when they weren't so afraid that they put an inch of bulletproof glass between you and them...) I remember a LOT of midnight runs to town to get a gallon of milk after forgetting it at the store and NOBODY having any way to call and remind you... and I helped more than a few people with flat tires that broke down in front of the farm, when your only choice was thumbing a ride, begging a stranger for help, or walking to the nearest house and asking to use the phone... (and hope you didn't get knocked in the head or something). Had to knock on a few doors and beg to use the phone myself a time or two in the "old days" when the truck or car crapped out... Now we call or text without thinking... about the SILLIEST things sometimes...

It's all amazing, to see how far we've come in just the last 30 years or so... and kinda hard to fathom where we'll likely be in another 30... BUT, like everything, it's got its good and bad points...

Later! OL JR :)
 
While I agree with a lot of what JR has to say, I also disagree with a lot of it. I think the fundamental fact of the world is that those with money make the rules, and the point of their game is to make more money and amass more power. So, "too cheap to meter" electricity and other concepts without a business model that would make sense for the people developing/implementing them are by definition, non-starters.

But computers have done a lot to improve my life, and I daresay the lives of my family and friends such as you folks.

First, without computers, or the fairly recent developments in the internet and home-based access to it, I wouldn't have you all to chat with about rockets and life in general. I wouldn't have open rocket, rocksim or the ability to create, view, and share pictures like I did in my launch report yesterday.

When my son banged his head on the doorjamb, and there was no appropriate physician on-staff that late night to read the x-ray, they sent the pics over the network to another hospital where a specialist was able tell us not to worry. This saved us a lot of worry and potentially a night at the hospital with a two year old boy.

When my wife had a 104F fever a few days after delivering that boy, computers were deeply involved in interpretting the results and coming up with treatments that saved her life.

Stem cell: it's not an empty promise; I've worked with a couple folks alive today due to stem cell research. They wouldn't be around without it. It's not a panacea, but it's important technology that has been handcuffed far too long.

Oh yeah, back to computers: hobby lobby coupons on a smartphone!

If we think any technology is going to change our society for the better, we're largely wrong. It's us who need to change the society. Technology just gives us more powerful tools to do so.

Marc

That's pretty much the point I was trying to make...

ANY technology that comes along is going to be used to increase the profits and power of those holding the cards... period... it is not, in and of itself, going to "improve life" or more correctly "improve society" just at face value... Hence "the system"... nowdays, EVERYTHING is about patents, technology licensing, user agreements and fees, etc... just the nature of the beast...

Perhaps one day far, far, FAR in the future, we'll have a "Star Trek" world where everybody gets what they need free and society works to better itself... until then, the profit motive will rule the day (or the power motive). It'll be a few centuries after I've shuttled off this mortal coil, IF it ever happens at all-- knowing human nature, I wouldn't bet on it...

I'd dare say that no technology is being developed that WOULD weaken or diminish the profit motive or the power motive... No matter how many Monsanto commercials or ADM commercials you might be bombarded with on TV, I can PROMISE you most assuredly that they are NOT developing GMO's to "feed the world" and other such laudable goals... they're in it for a PROFIT and/or to leverage their global position. (power) They're just not honest enough to say that and call it good...

Same thing with most medical technologies... sure they're inventing "miracle cures" all the time, but unless you can figure out how to pay for them...

This is the fundamental problem with the "Third World"... they can't pay for anything, because they don't have anything... I've read the "greenies" and enviromentalists and humanists and vegans for decades cursing US agriculture, farmers, etc for "feeding billions of bushels a year to livestock in the US to fatten them up for meat production for first-world markets, when all that grain could go to alleviate hunger in the Third World..." Yeah, but only problem with that is, we're in business to MAKE A PROFIT... It costs a LOT of money to grow a crop... and even more to ship it halfway around the world... if once you get it there nobody has any money to BUY it, well, you won't be in business very long with THAT model! Hence, only good ol' Uncle Sam, desiring to manipulate the grain markets to the benefit and at the behest of the big agribiz campaign contributors and cohorts, would buy grain at loan prices above current market price, encouraging overproduction, and then giving that "surplus" grain away in the Third World as food aide, for free (well, to "buy" goodwill and influence in the countries receiving such aide, and usually political or military or various other concessions or favoritism in lieu of cash). I guess I could show a slight amount of faith in the better angels of human nature (as Abraham Lincoln put it) and mention the free food aide handed out by groups like the bald guy on TV and Sally Struthers, hawking for donations to feed poor kids elsewhere in the world...

But, basically, in the end, if it doesn't improve someone's power position or profits, it's probably not going to happen...

Later! OL JR :)
 
I made 2 replies. Both highly critical of JR and their ilk. In the end I trashed them. Marc said it better and perhaps less critical. When people try to take away guns because of murder, the gun owners rightly point out, that guns do not kill anyone - they are inanimate objects. Well it's the same with SCIENCE and TECHNOLOGY (they are inseparable because the former begats the latter). They are tools. People decide how to use them. And in so so so so so many ways we are far far far far better off than returning to the dark ages.

Thx Marc. You said it better. :handshake:

WOW! Wasn't trying to get anybody's dander up... Geesh... it's just a discussion after all... not deciding the fate of the world, whether it will be all "I, Robot" or all "Amish Luddite" and we drag the other half kicking and screaming along whichever way we go... (cause we BOTH know there IS "the other half" no matter which side of the issue we're on... we do know that, correct??)

I'm not particularly in favor of being "Luddite" but I certainly see why some people are... not EVERYTHING has improved because of technology... we've just exchanged one set of problems for another set, honestly... I stand by my observations, especially firsthand relating to agriculture... the technology has worked FAR more to the benefit of the buyers and "the industry" than for the individual farmer... and in fact, the individual farmer IS in a worse position today BECAUSE of the implementation of many of these technologies than he has been helped by it... BUT, obviously it was of sufficient benefit and profit to those higher up the food chain that they spent the time and money to implement it, or it would never have been adopted... Technology isn't always a zero-sum game, but to pretend there aren't winners AND losers in most technological "improvements" is naive, if not downright dishonest, IMHO. I know right now we have all these "industry hacks" that are trying to cram universal mandatory animal ID down our throats... supposedly for the benefit of "disease tracking and control" but realistically, it's all about a power grab and money-making scheme... the gov't loves it because it gives them more regulatory power. The big agribiz companies love it because it gives them SOLID data to plug into their business formulae to determine supply/demand curves, set pricing, buy/sell puts/calls, options, contracts, etc and therefore increase profitability and "corner the market" or at least manipulate it to their advantage (rather than having to work with USDA "estimates")... the vets love it because once they get it in for "disease monitoring and control", they and the animal ag drug companies will be pushing new regs on animal treatments, requiring ALL livestock get vaccines and stuff that are presently "voluntary", since they'll then have a captive method of enforcement once ALL livestock have to be numbered and reported... it'll be simple to set up an enforcement database and force farmers to have to pay a vet to come administer certain vaccines or antibiotics or treatments that are "too complicated" for the farmer to do himself... and have to buy the drugs from the drug companies through said vet... and the hardware and software companies involved love it because they'll get to sell tons of gov't numbered RFID eartags and injectable transmitters, and the hardware to read them, (which amounts to over $40,000 for the average country livestock sale barn) and of course the software people will get to create products to sell and services to handle the databases and such... Like I said, all about CONTROL and MAKING MONEY... funny thing is, more than a few farmers are pushing it... early adopters mostly who've been getting marginal profits from "source verified" niche animal products being sold in NICHE MARKETS... what they fail to realize is, when EVERYBODY is forced to adopt their "paradigm", those profits will dry up-- there will be NO INCENTIVE for the market to "pay more" for source verified livestock when ALL livestock is RFID chipped and tagged and in a gov't database... I don't particularly resent the farmers using such technologies to make a profit, where they can, if they can (to the extent they choose to use it IF THEY DESIRE, and give me the right to CHOOSE NOT TO USE IT IF I SO DESIRE.) I just don't like having such things rammed down my throat, whether I want it or not...

I think that's the fundamental issue a LOT of folks have about certain technologies... and certainly one aspect driving the "Luddite" movements... Like I said, I'm not ADVOCATING being Luddite... I'm just saying I understand WHY some folks are and STRONGLY BELIEVE THEY have the RIGHT to reject such technologies as they see fit. That's one thing I find rather amusing about the Amish... well, amusing and admirable at the same time... they don't believe it's wrong to RIDE in a gas-powered car, it's just wrong to OWN one... eminently practical, actually... enjoy the benefits of a technology to some degree, but don't have to bear the costs of ownership, maintenance, insurance, licensing, inspections, fees, repairs, etc... but it DOES seem somewhat disingenuous to me as well... sorta like "having your cake and eating it too" kinda thing... BUT, if, like my SIL's FIL, who regularly drives an Amish neighbor to town to his doctor's appointments, one wishes to "help out" in such a way (be taken advantage of, in a sense) then so be it... no worse than a lot of other ways we're "taken advantage of" nowdays, and at least it's a genuinely charitable form of "help" I suppose... And on the other side of the coin, even if it is a bit "having my cake and eating it too" sort of thing, it's FAR less hypocritical than a lot of greenies and environmentalists who scream and rant and rave about things while enjoying so many of the benefits provided by the very things they rail against... IMHO NO environmentalist should be allowed to rant and rave about carbon emissions if they use electricity or a fossil-fuel powered vehicle... unless they're TOTALLY off the grid and self-sustaining powerwise... even then, the "interconnectedness" of things means basically they're disingenuous and hypocritical, because the industries supporting the creation and maintenance of those technologies use the power sources or raw materials or mining or processes that they're constantly railing about...

But then again, the world is full of hypocrites... always has been, always will be... and as for technology, there will always be a war between the winners and the losers, between power and greed and altruism, freedom, and being beneficiary... there's an old saying that sorta sums it up, going back to an age when the main form of transportation was much more alive... "If wishes were horses, everybody would ride" (instead of having to walk).

That's all I'm getting at... Like Mr. Spock once said (or Gene Roddenberry anyway, the Great Bird of the Galaxy-- "Technology is inherently neither good nor evil... it is how it is USED that makes the difference.")

Later! OL JR :)
 
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