Certification Pass or Fail

The Rocketry Forum

Help Support The Rocketry Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.
I mean its very lucky the fin stayed in, and technically its fixable to fly again that day. Had the fin been lost then then obviously no, and this picture would be way different. The Cert Teams concern could be that structurally it did fail on the way up, and it wasn't the landing.

Either way that's fixable. Certification should have been given. ...
The flight being discussed here did earn the op a Level 2 certification, as reported in post #27. Most of the TRFers responding here disagree with that decision.
For myself I've always been a big supporter of local control of the cert process. The top persons on the scene make the call. They called PASS in this case. On the other hand, the photos provided by the op show damage that I and many others judge to be a FAIL. Hence the "conundrum" I mentioned in a previous post.
At the end of the day it don't matter. The op is L2 certified. God Bless America! :)
 
Last edited:
Hmm, 25 x 25 is 625 vee squared and then let's say 8 lbs., that's 5000 moon units of force.

The fins are secured with 4mm nylon bolts.

Tom Hanks Quote GIF by Top 100 Movie Quotes of All Time
 
My take on the rule is when you hand it over for the inspection after the flight it would need to be in flying condition to pass the certification. Not “hey if you can fix it in 15 mins your good”.
This flight doesn’t meet those expectations, regardless of the intended design.
 
If the heads popped off… they sheared. Interesting design, but absolutely unnecessary if you sized your recovery system correctly. Just doing the math on the approximate force it should have taken to shear all those bolts… that wasn’t a safe recovery especially if the laundry was fully deployed.
I consider the bolts to be like fuses in an electrical system— sacrificial parts that fail in order to to prevent major damage. You may never need a fuse, until you do. Do you consider fuses to be unnecessary? Maybe I just need to re-size my fuses.

BTW, shear forces are perpendicular to the bolt shaft. These failed in tension.
 
Last edited:
Model airplanes use rubber bands or nylon bolts to hold the wings on. The nylon bolts are designed to shear and hopefully limit damage to the wing and airframe in a non-nominal landing. If a student flyer breaks the bolts on landing but can put the plane back together quickly with new bolts, I would still not consider that a successful landing.

ETA: I believe it was discussed recently that the TRA allowance for structural metal is limited to ductile metals, so effectively copper and aluminum. Brass might get smuggled in as sufficiently like copper. Aluminum screws are a thing, if one wants to go there.
 
Last edited:
Maybe nylon is not the best choice, metal would be better probably. Edit also a coarser thread might help.
The fins would be the sacrificial parts with steel, or larger nylon bolts. Although it would be easy to put in a spare fin, I would rather replace bolts than make more spare fins.
 
Model airplanes use rubber bands or nylon bolts to hold the wings on. The nylon bolts are designed to shear and hopefully limit damage to the wing and airframe in a non-nominal landing. If a student flyer breaks the bolts on landing but can put the plane back together quickly with new bolts, I would still not consider that a successful landing.
Personally, I see too much of the everyone’s a winner attitude with the cert flights. We all know how much work was put into it, how nervous the flyer is and how their expectations are so high for success, but if you got a 6” long zipper, sorry, if you break a fin , sorry even if you were unlucky enough to land on the only rock in the entire sod farm, if it’s hung up 60’ in a tree sorry, if the motor burned through and fried your rear CR & retainer sorry, if you recover intact but a half mile outside the recovery cylinder, sorry if you break the waiver, sorry if you chute fouled and didn’t open sorry, ect ect ect. If you can’t put it up under the waiver, bring it down within the recovery cylinder, and bring it back to the RSO table for inspection that it is indeed undamaged then you need to learn from the attempt and return to the next launch to try again. Planned failure point engineering should not be part of a cert flight as referenced in almost all the above posts
 
Personally, I see too much of the everyone’s a winner attitude with the cert flights. We all know how much work was put into it, how nervous the flyer is and how their expectations are so high for success, but if you got a 6” long zipper, sorry, if you break a fin , sorry even if you were unlucky enough to land on the only rock in the entire sod farm, if it’s hung up 60’ in a tree sorry, if the motor burned through and fried your rear CR & retainer sorry, if you recover intact but a half mile outside the recovery c, sorry if you break the waiver, sorry if you chute fouled and didnylinder’t open sorry, ect ect ect. If you can’t put it up under the waiver, bring it down within the recovery cylinder, and bring it back to the RSO table for inspection that it is indeed undamaged then you need to learn from the attempt and return to the next launch to try again. Planned failure point engineering should not be part of a cert flight as referenced in almost all the above posts
Well it passed, I guess it is time now then to rethink who can do certification. I've seen lots of scary and stupid flights allowed at launches, time to rethink who can RSO. OP said the flight was well thought over before passing it. I'm sure the Cert team figured the chute and decent rate was OK. and took into consideration that this rocket had planned failure points. A failure point that is no big deal and that it happened to work on the cert flight.
One thing I would not recommend is using an upscale Estes Cato for certification.

Planned failure point engineering should not be part of a cert flight as referenced in almost all the above posts
Not referenced here:
Pre Flight: Are the fins fully secured to the model? Check for looseness or cracking at the fin to body tube junction. "Thru the wall" construction is recommended for high power models. Is the fin material compatible with the motor thrust range (1/8 inch minimum plywood is recommended for high power models)? Ask the modeler how their fins are mounted, what adhesives were used (epoxy is preferred), and what fin material was used. Are the fins mounted parallel to the roll axis of the model? Are any warps present which may cause erratic flight?

Post Flight: Verify that no major damage is present. Minor impact damage or "zipper" is acceptable.
I would call what happened minor as the fins were designed to do that.

bring it back to the RSO table for inspection that it is indeed undamaged
??????????????

if it’s hung up 60’ in a tree sorry,
what if recovered before end of launch and no damage to it?? Any difference if it's only 10ft. up in a tree and recovered??
if you recover intact but a half mile outside the recovery cylinder, sorry
Sorry I don't see any of these as disqualifications in the NAR L2 certification procedures.
 
Last edited:
Model airplanes use rubber bands or nylon bolts to hold the wings on. The nylon bolts are designed to shear and hopefully limit damage to the wing and airframe in a non-nominal landing. If a student flyer breaks the bolts on landing but can put the plane back together quickly with new bolts, I would still not consider that a successful landing.

ETA: I believe it was discussed recently that the TRA allowance for structural metal is limited to ductile metals, so effectively copper and aluminum. Brass might get smuggled in as sufficiently like copper. Aluminum screws are a thing, if one wants to go there.
There’s no issue with steel in minor parts like screws, u-bolts, or even aft closures of motors.
 
As a L3CC it would be a no.... I would fail it

If you came up to me BEFORE your flight and asked me to 'do your cert' , I would ask the question, how do you know the rocket is strong enough?
If the answer is 'i built a kit and am using a motor the kit recommends' I would ask questions about construction, methods, adhesives (dont get me started about adhesives) for construction.

If the answer is 'I changed the kit using a different way of holding the fins on' There would be many more questions about how do you know it is strong enough. Lots of good ways to answer that question, and a lot of bad ways to answer that too. Dont get me wrong, my level 1 and level 2 rockets were scratch built (I built the tubes from fiber and resin, fins were laid up, I'm talking totally scratch built. I like that people scratch build, but if you do, be ready to 'defend' the materials, methods and design of the rocket. My level 3 was a LARGE rocket with bolted on fins, I'm not against that either. I fly 3D printed fincans too, I'm not saying no for any of those reasons.

Here are the issues I have, and I say these without talking to the flyer;
  • Nylon screws is a pretty generic statement, how did you size them, spec then?
  • it looks like the edges of the washers are up against the fillet, the engineering term for that is a no-no, causes a bending in the screws, preloading them.
  • No washer under the nut, did you 'twist preload' the screws during installation? Really easy to do with nylon screws.
  • It is difficult to get the right torque on a nylon screw, have a metal screw, with a significant margin (most do) and this isn't very critical.
  • If the fins are pop off, how did the flyer determine what is strong enough to fly but weak enough to pop off, any testing?
  • Did the 3d printed flanges have chamfers on the edges (to keep the fin from rotating about the edge), most parts like that will have a lip at the edge (corner is proud not recessed). Were the flanges truly 120 degrees apart or did the parts have snap in. Either of these causes the screws to be loaded in bad ways as the fin 'pivots' on the edges. Like a claw hammer tanking out a nail.
  • If the fins were able to slide in the slot, when the fin tip hits the ground the fin acts like a lever shearing the aft fin with little resistance from the other screws Easy to check for this during assembly. Problem is worse due to the shape fin he used. Nothing wrong with the fin but adds load to the screws / joint.
  • The fact that it doesn't appear that the flyer knows why the screws failed is a problem to me. Were the screws marginal, installed with preload, and hit by a shock cord on deployment, or nosecone? Or if they did snap off on the ground (mechanical fuse) was the load HIGH enough that with a larger motor or on a different day the fins wouldn't have had any issue during the flight.
  • When you pick materials like nylon and 3D printed parts, have you taken into account temperature (BTW hot OR cold). Easy for a rocket (black one) sitting on the pad to get warm enough that - the CTE of 3D printed part causes the, lower strength due to temperature nylon screws, to be REALLY preloaded.
Just a couple of thoughts I had. I really encourage scratch building, new materials, and unique designs, BUT for a level 2 cert that lets you fly some pretty 'fun' motors, it has to be a bit more than a let see what happens build. I'm not saying he needed to do a full material allowable testing program / stress analysis, but, IMHO needs to do some justification for the design. This is where mentors / experienced flyers can help.

Again I'm making LOTS of assumptions here, if the flyer did some testing / analysis ahead of time, my apologies.

Mike K
 
Last edited:
Well it passed, I guess it is time now then to rethink who can do certification. I've seen lots of scary and stupid flights allowed at launches, time to rethink who can RSO. OP said the flight was well thought over before passing it. I'm sure the Cert team figured the chute and decent rate was OK. and took into consideration that this rocket had planned failure points. A failure point that is no big deal and that it happened to work on the cert flight.
One thing I would not recommend is using an upscale Estes Cato for certification.

Planned failure point engineering should not be part of a cert flight as referenced in almost all the above posts
Not referenced here:
Pre Flight: Are the fins fully secured to the model? Check for looseness or cracking at the fin to body tube junction. "Thru the wall" construction is recommended for high power models. Is the fin material compatible with the motor thrust range (1/8 inch minimum plywood is recommended for high power models)? Ask the modeler how their fins are mounted, what adhesives were used (epoxy is preferred), and what fin material was used. Are the fins mounted parallel to the roll axis of the model? Are any warps present which may cause erratic flight?

Post Flight: Verify that no major damage is present. Minor impact damage or "zipper" is acceptable.
I would call what happened minor as the fins were designed to do that.

bring it back to the RSO table for inspection that it is indeed undamaged
??????????????

if it’s hung up 60’ in a tree sorry,
what if recovered before end of launch and no damage to it?? Any difference if it's only 10ft. up in a tree and recovered??
if you recover intact but a half mile outside the recovery cylinder, sorry
Sorry I don't see any of these as disqualifications in the NAR L2 certification procedures.
Being Tripoli not NAR, I am not familiar with their rules. Two points in Tripoli’s rules that cause a pause are:

1. Cert flight rockets shall be if conventional design - fins that are designed to fail at some unknown force load are NOT part of a conventional rocket

2. Tripoli defines damage as: “If you were handed another motor, could the rocket be loaded and flown again safely”
It does not say anything about making repairs or be given any certain amount of time to make any repairs. It clearly states that it needs to be capable of flying safely again as is. Again this would be a fail at our field.
 
Here’s what the Prefect Manual says:
Non-certification – Any of the following will result in the failure of a certification flight:
 Motor Cato
 Excessive Damage during flight or recovery
1. Excessive damage is defined as damage to the rocket which would prevent flying it again safely.
2. A zipper of a quarter caliber or less is acceptable.
3. Cosmetic damage to fillets is acceptable, but a fin tab that is no longer securely bonded to either
the motor mount tube or body tube is not.

 Failed recovery system deployment, including failure to eject deployment system, tangled recovery
system, failure of chute release to release, or other failure that allows the rocket to descend faster
than designed even if there is no damage to the rocket.
 Rocket exceeding the waivered altitude, the expected altitude as limited by FAR 101.25(G), or
drifting outside the specified launch range.
 Components coming down that are not attached to the recovery system.
 Landing in excess of 35 feet per second.
 Any other violation of the Tripoli Unified Safety Code associated with this particular flight.

Definitely should have been a fail. Poor choice of construction material (nylon screws in a high stress location). Those screws could just as easily have failed in flight due to fin flutter, resulting in an unsafe flight. Flying a rocket with “sacrificial fin mounts” shouldn’t be approved by an RSO.

As an L3cc and TAP i would fail for several reasons. First would be
You are designing a rocket that has intened failure points in the structural area of the fins. This would be a fail before it even got out to the range. Its potential for an unsafe flight or unstable flight could exist. What if the sheer pins sheered upon thrust. Lost a fin. Your drilling holes through the root of a fin thats thin plywood. This would weaken the fin root. I would agree with @watheyak on modifing a kit that doesnt need it. You are trying to create a fix for a problem that doesnt exist especially if recovery is working as it is supposed to. There was also poor choice in the strength of material used in nylon bolts.

Second your recovery obviously did not come down slowly enough. That also IS a fail see the above post by @Steve Shannon. If safe recovery speed is occuring you should have never broke any of the nylon pins.

You also had basically a structural failure. Not a minor or cosmetic repair. This would also be a failure.
 
I consider the bolts to be like fuses in an electrical system— sacrificial parts that fail in order to to prevent major damage. You may never need a fuse, until you do. Do you consider fuses to be unnecessary? Maybe I just need to re-size my fuses.

BTW, shear forces are perpendicular to the bolt shaft. These failed in tension.

A fuse blows when the system fails to work within the correct boundries of the design of the circuit. This tells me you created a design for failure so if something happened this would fail. If you keep the flight within the correct parameters of recovery you shouldnt need your "fuse"
 
A fuse blows when the system fails to work within the correct boundries of the design of the circuit. This tells me you created a design for failure so if something happened this would fail. If you keep the flight within the correct parameters of recovery you shouldnt need your "fuse"
You think someone could design a fuse for the long CTI 54mm motors 😊
 
"Substantial metal"? Really? 15 3g machine screw assemblies (No. 4 machine screw, 2 washers, 1 nut, 1 nylon-core lock nut). I weighed it.


It seems to me that any metal that holds vital (fins ARE vital. no?) parts of a rocket together would be DEFINED as substantial, regardless of weight or size!
 
A fuse blows when the system fails to work within the correct boundries of the design of the circuit. This tells me you created a design for failure so if something happened this would fail. If you keep the flight within the correct parameters of recovery you shouldnt need your "fuse"
It's just a concept the OP was working/ experimenting with, just like his bellyflop recovery. I would agree not the best thing to do for a cert flight, wait till after. He did his cert 1 with it. I'm sure he got some recommendations from the cert team after the cert 2 flight.
It isn't any different than someone interested in active stabilization, Odd Rocs, putting fins and nosecone on a DMS motor, steerable chute recovery, L3 certs making a rocket for rocket shredding motors and drag racing them raining pieces down all over etc.

Nothing in the rules prohibiting bolt on fins. It would also be very nice if all of us did not have to worry about keeping our recoveries within the correct parameters.
Maybe try thinking of it as a solution/ easy fix after a potential recovery problem rather than a design for failure.

https://www.rocketryforum.com/threads/rcrg-flyer-in-ohio.174905/https://www.rocketryforum.com/threads/are-fins-over-engineered.178197/
https://www.rocketryforum.com/threads/bolt-on-fins.178405/#post-2442590https://www.rocketryforum.com/threads/bellyflop-recovery.175503/
 
Last edited:
It seems to me that any metal that holds vital (fins ARE vital. no?) parts of a rocket together would be DEFINED as substantial, regardless of weight or size!
Ummmm, is the motor a vital part of the rocket? If so, I guess that would DQ motor hooks.

technically from NAR high power code

  1. Materials. I will use only lightweight materials such as paper, wood, rubber, plastic, fiberglass, or when necessary ductile metal, for the construction of my rocket.
https://www.nar.org/safety-information/high-power-rocket-safety-code/

from Apogee Rockets web site.

STANDARD ENGINE HOOKS​


https://www.apogeerockets.com/Build...y,or remove the rocket engine from the model.

our sorely missed Der MicroMeister was a brilliant and kindly curmudgeon, but would get his panties in a wad for low power using an aluminum can piece as an internal liner in a downsized stuffer tube to prevent burn through.

@sr205347d posted this as an opinion question. it’s all a theoretical exercise on the forum because the NAR authorities on site who preflighted the rocket, watched the flight, and did the post-mortem post-flight review . They know far more about the whole thing than anybody other than @sr205347d himself, and they passed it through all phases. it was their call to make.

strongly concur with advice that before you build ANY cert rocket would be wise (not essential, but certainly wise) to run anything non-standard/not stock by the people you hope to sign off your cert flight, as some strong opinions here that a different reviewer might not have looked so favorably on it.

FWIW, I think ”frangible” fins might be a reasonable thing to put on a rocket, but probably not the best choice for a certification rocket. I probably will be an L-0 for life, but if I did for for L1 it would probably be a helicopter, cuz I don’t think it’s been done (for certification) before. I do know someone did a successful L1 on a GLIDER.

I have used something akin to frangible fins and it worked great,

https://www.rocketryforum.com/threads/frangible-assisted-recovery.165724/
 
For those ok with passing a popped bolt-on fin, would your answer be the same for a popped fin in an Aerotech kit for an L1 cert? Those are designed to pop out of the fin-lok things before breaking, similar to the nylon bolts, and can be quickly repaired by just popping them back in.

Both would be failures for me, for whatever that's worth.
 
For those ok with passing a popped bolt-on fin, would your answer be the same for a popped fin in an Aerotech kit for an L1 cert? Those are designed to pop out of the fin-lok things before breaking, similar to the nylon bolts, and can be quickly repaired by just popping them back in.

Both would be failures for me, for whatever that's worth.

Yup.

Properly sized parachute that properly deploys, with proper construction and fins don't pop out.

-Kevin
 
Back
Top