Hello everyone, I was wondering if anyone had recommendations on a brand or even a specific kit that they think does an exceptional job of teaching advanced techniques. Seeing as high powered rocketry seems to me to have a bit of a learning curve, I thought there may be a kit out there that tries to bridge that knowledge gap between balsa, paper and wood glue to epoxy, fiberglass and electronics. As a side note, even though I am not not Level 1, please don’t assume I am looking for a good candidate kit for a level 1 certification. From what I can tell, most recommended level 1 certification rockets can be very dumbed down so as there is less to go wrong; while fine for certification, I’m more interested in learning a lot. Thank you for the helpful pointers!
Best kit to learn from
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Most high power kits that I've bought have very basic instructions, if any. Also, a lot of kits don't require fiberglassing, unless you really push them hard. I personally like to 'scratch' build. A lot of people new to HPR overbuild. ask questions on the forums, watch other hobbyists build threads, etc. but don't assume that what works for a 75mm motor bird will be the same as a 38mm bird 
. Enjoy the build process.
. Enjoy the build process.
Spitfire222
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I don't think there's a specific kit or way of doing what you want. You gain that knowledge over exposure and time being involved in the hobby. It's why pretty much most experienced modelers recommend a gradual, stepped approach (crawl-->walk-->run) when we encounter someone who wants to enter the hobby directly into HPR (i.e. birth-->sprint, skipping the crawl, walk, run steps entirely). As you work your way through larger and more complex rockets, you pick up experience that you can then compound into the next one.
For example, going from LPR, MPR, and then finally HPR with a simple, cardboard Level 1 rocket, you gain experience with new materials, such as plywood, two-part adhesives, and seeing how that affects their flights and recovery. Then, you can try dual-deploy on those same rockets. Then, you try a simple, MPR fiberglass rocket to practice working with that material on a low-stakes model. Then you build a bigger fiberglass HPR. Then you add dual-deploy to that rocket, etc etc. Every step of the way you try one new thing, and overtime you amass the skills (building and flying!) to apply to larger, more complex rockets.
With that being said, the plethora of valuable information on this website is invaluable for helping those "jumps" up a step to go more smoothly. There are so many members here who are happy to share their knowledge and experience, usually with lots of build threads and photos. Lastly, Apogee Components has some good videos explaining the basics, including step-by-step videos on how to build their Level 1 rocket, the Zephyr.
For example, going from LPR, MPR, and then finally HPR with a simple, cardboard Level 1 rocket, you gain experience with new materials, such as plywood, two-part adhesives, and seeing how that affects their flights and recovery. Then, you can try dual-deploy on those same rockets. Then, you try a simple, MPR fiberglass rocket to practice working with that material on a low-stakes model. Then you build a bigger fiberglass HPR. Then you add dual-deploy to that rocket, etc etc. Every step of the way you try one new thing, and overtime you amass the skills (building and flying!) to apply to larger, more complex rockets.
With that being said, the plethora of valuable information on this website is invaluable for helping those "jumps" up a step to go more smoothly. There are so many members here who are happy to share their knowledge and experience, usually with lots of build threads and photos. Lastly, Apogee Components has some good videos explaining the basics, including step-by-step videos on how to build their Level 1 rocket, the Zephyr.
Rschub
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LOC makes nice kits, but I think the underlying question is "How do I become proficient with advanced techniques?"
There is no kit that will answer every question you will have or foresee which direction you will take in the hobby. I have not yet gotten to a full fiberglass kit yet, but from what I have seen they assume a quite high level of pre-existing knowledge on the part of the builder.
That is where this forum is valuable, almost every question you can think of has been answered here numerous times, at least in my searches.
If you are a video person, John Coker has a ton of videos on almost every conceivable topic.
Using myself as an example, I started with a LOC kit just to get my feet wet. I launched it several times, gained experience with motor sizing, motor ejection and proper parachute packing. I am currently adding an extension tube and an av-bay to work on dual deploy which is a big step in complexity.
My goal for this year is to fly it a bunch and then possibly start on a full fiberglass kit.
The reasoning is to make mistakes on something basic before moving up, you will make mistakes, that's just part of learning. My current rocket is about an inch shorter due to something I didn't anticipate. It's very easy to trim cardboard.
There is no kit that will answer every question you will have or foresee which direction you will take in the hobby. I have not yet gotten to a full fiberglass kit yet, but from what I have seen they assume a quite high level of pre-existing knowledge on the part of the builder.
That is where this forum is valuable, almost every question you can think of has been answered here numerous times, at least in my searches.
If you are a video person, John Coker has a ton of videos on almost every conceivable topic.
Using myself as an example, I started with a LOC kit just to get my feet wet. I launched it several times, gained experience with motor sizing, motor ejection and proper parachute packing. I am currently adding an extension tube and an av-bay to work on dual deploy which is a big step in complexity.
My goal for this year is to fly it a bunch and then possibly start on a full fiberglass kit.
The reasoning is to make mistakes on something basic before moving up, you will make mistakes, that's just part of learning. My current rocket is about an inch shorter due to something I didn't anticipate. It's very easy to trim cardboard.
You can't go wrong with a LOC or PML kit. Also, Apogee's new kits introduce an advanced fin/centering ring interlock system. The Apogee design ensures strength and perfect fin alignment without a jig. You can download the instructions for the Apogee kits from their website to see how it works.
Thanks for the responses, but I was being quite literal with the request. I appreciate the pointers on how to learn more, and they are all good and valid. I have built many low powered rockets, and I am also very well read on the topics of both low and high powered rocketry. Not trying to run before I walk or anything like that, just looking for an advanced kit with very good instructions to learn more from.
Not trying to be rude, I just don’t want the thread to turn into a discussion on how there are better ways to learn.
Not trying to be rude, I just don’t want the thread to turn into a discussion on how there are better ways to learn.
I’ll check those out, thank you!
Aerotech kits are a good MPR bridge between low and high power. They are well made and have a couple of neat features, but also have instructions completed enough to get you through the build without having to ask questions.
LOC/PML are great simple kits, sturdy, and perhaps a better choice if you want to modify them.
How do the Aerotech kits compare to the Estes MPR kits?
bcook7135
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Miles apart. Aerotech uses a fin lock system on several kits. Makes the kit heavier. But it is very precise and sturdy. They use thicker walled body tubes also. They also incorporate a baffle system that eliminates the need for recovery wadding.
I have built Estes kit since the early 1970’s. And I like them. They have their place. Their instructions are very good most of the time. And Aerotech sometimes include some confusing revisions. But the kits are well made.
I have built Estes kit since the early 1970’s. And I like them. They have their place. Their instructions are very good most of the time. And Aerotech sometimes include some confusing revisions. But the kits are well made.
Different animal, IMHO.
I was weaned on Estes kits, and they will always represent rocketry to me.
The Aerotech kits are more advanced, with thick fins, molded with bevels and fillets, and TTW tabs that snap into a lock system that secures them to the motor mount.
There’s a baffle with stainless mesh built into the end if the motor mount to eliminate the need for wadding. That’s a love it hate it thing, but I’ve found it helpful and worthy of at least a couple years’ flying before the mesh gave up and I had to go back to adding wadding.
They’re solid without having to make changes for strength.
Edit: ninja’s by @bcook7135 !
I was weaned on Estes kits, and they will always represent rocketry to me.
The Aerotech kits are more advanced, with thick fins, molded with bevels and fillets, and TTW tabs that snap into a lock system that secures them to the motor mount.
There’s a baffle with stainless mesh built into the end if the motor mount to eliminate the need for wadding. That’s a love it hate it thing, but I’ve found it helpful and worthy of at least a couple years’ flying before the mesh gave up and I had to go back to adding wadding.
They’re solid without having to make changes for strength.
Edit: ninja’s by @bcook7135 !
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bcook7135
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We think the same
A kit is merely a canvass to ones soul. Let your mind wander across the fiberglass like a river, flowing through time.
wow man, that's some deep stuff.
Hehehe.
James Duffy
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The hobby really does not have a single kit that offers a "buffet," if you will, of advanced building techniques. Generally you will find one novel approach on one kit, something completely different on another kit, and so on.
After a few kit builds in this hobby, you're on your own. Regardless of whether your are building high, mid, or low power, paper, glass, carbon, or whatever, it's up to the builder to determine what approach or technique might be appropriate for a particular build. That's what makes this so much fun.
After a few kit builds in this hobby, you're on your own. Regardless of whether your are building high, mid, or low power, paper, glass, carbon, or whatever, it's up to the builder to determine what approach or technique might be appropriate for a particular build. That's what makes this so much fun.
waltr
Well-Known Member
I'll recommend a kit that is popular and then search this forum for threads about building that kit.
Or search for build threads to find a kit that interests you.
As said above, most of the HPR kits have minimum or no instructions. Also they leave a number of things, like motor retention, up to the builder to figure out.
First kit that comes to mind (I build for L1 cert) is the LOC 4" Goblin. This kit is complete, you only need to add glue and paint. LOC has a good video on building it and there are a number of build threads here about it.
LOC kit are nice and since are cardboard and plywood are an easy step from LPR kits.
The other option is to go to a glass rocket kit. This is a much bigger change on how to build due to the materials. A good first glass kit would be a smaller Mach 1 rocket.
Or search for build threads to find a kit that interests you.
As said above, most of the HPR kits have minimum or no instructions. Also they leave a number of things, like motor retention, up to the builder to figure out.
First kit that comes to mind (I build for L1 cert) is the LOC 4" Goblin. This kit is complete, you only need to add glue and paint. LOC has a good video on building it and there are a number of build threads here about it.
LOC kit are nice and since are cardboard and plywood are an easy step from LPR kits.
The other option is to go to a glass rocket kit. This is a much bigger change on how to build due to the materials. A good first glass kit would be a smaller Mach 1 rocket.
Rschub
Well-Known Member
Deep Stuff sounds like a rocket name......
If you don't mind going to club members, TRF, or other sources for information and instructions on how to actually assemble the kit, then the MadCow 2.6" DD DX3 is an excellent kit for learning to build HPR, work with fiberglass, dual deployment, etc. You will have to L1 cert to fly this because it will need H motors at a minimum to fly safely.
I recently finished a 2.2" DD DX3 and found it has almost the same flight profiles on the same motors as my scratch built L1 cert rocket from 17 years ago. I built that cert rocket for the same reason you want to do the kit, to learn as much about HPR building as possible. I learned more building and flying that rocket than any before or since. I think the DX3 kit could do the same for you.
Just keep in mind, you will learn as much flying that HPR rocket as you will building it.
I recently finished a 2.2" DD DX3 and found it has almost the same flight profiles on the same motors as my scratch built L1 cert rocket from 17 years ago. I built that cert rocket for the same reason you want to do the kit, to learn as much about HPR building as possible. I learned more building and flying that rocket than any before or since. I think the DX3 kit could do the same for you.
Just keep in mind, you will learn as much flying that HPR rocket as you will building it.
I recently completed a Wildman Journey 75 kit. It came without instructions, but there's a comprehensive video on their YouTube channel.
The kit came with everything except a chute protector, engine retainer, epoxy, and paint.
Originally, I looked at the Apogee Zephyr (which I'll probably get someday), but in my mind, a fiberglass rocket would be sturdier for a L1 attempt... It's also heavier, but everything is a tradeoff.
(I'm not saying that one is better than the other, but I'm really happy with the way mine came out.)
It was my first fiberglass/HPR build, but I've been into RC planes for years and have experience with epoxy and sanding... and sanding is 90% of HPR, just saying..
Video mentioned is here;
The kit came with everything except a chute protector, engine retainer, epoxy, and paint.
Originally, I looked at the Apogee Zephyr (which I'll probably get someday), but in my mind, a fiberglass rocket would be sturdier for a L1 attempt... It's also heavier, but everything is a tradeoff.
(I'm not saying that one is better than the other, but I'm really happy with the way mine came out.)
It was my first fiberglass/HPR build, but I've been into RC planes for years and have experience with epoxy and sanding... and sanding is 90% of HPR, just saying..
Video mentioned is here;
MidOH
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Everything you need to know is here. I read the whole forum. Built a Loc Goblin and some MPR stepping stones. Like the Loc Onyx, and Loc Micromag.
Then took what I learned from building those, and built a lighter, less epoxy, Loc IV. Using Loc parts, not the kit. So it's not a spilt fuselage, and has a long 38mm motor tube and forward mounted FCR as a laundry shelf (eyelet is also reachable for a quick ring). Hopefully will launch it this fall with a JLCR.
Fiberglass doesn't seem too hot for a L1 cert flight. Strong, but too heavy. Fat paper rockets, built light are best. Safe picks:
Loc IV
Apogee Zephyr
Loc 5.5" Goblin
Apogee Katana
Then took what I learned from building those, and built a lighter, less epoxy, Loc IV. Using Loc parts, not the kit. So it's not a spilt fuselage, and has a long 38mm motor tube and forward mounted FCR as a laundry shelf (eyelet is also reachable for a quick ring). Hopefully will launch it this fall with a JLCR.
Fiberglass doesn't seem too hot for a L1 cert flight. Strong, but too heavy. Fat paper rockets, built light are best. Safe picks:
Loc IV
Apogee Zephyr
Loc 5.5" Goblin
Apogee Katana
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My Apogee Level 2 rocket was all fiberglass and being completely smooth, I did less sanding on it than any other rocket I've ever built, so HPR rockets are only 10% sanding if made of fiberglass.
There's a chance I was being facetious.
Yeah, my fiberglass rocket feels smooth as glass, maybe I'm just used to the amount of sanding I do on balsa, but it did seem a little labor intensive.
As a side note, fiberglass is no joke. You'll want to wear a mask or a respirator and some gloves.. maybe even do it outside. I only had to pluck about three or four pieces of fiberglass out of my fingers, but hopefully I learned something.
Yeah, my fiberglass rocket feels smooth as glass, maybe I'm just used to the amount of sanding I do on balsa, but it did seem a little labor intensive.
As a side note, fiberglass is no joke. You'll want to wear a mask or a respirator and some gloves.. maybe even do it outside. I only had to pluck about three or four pieces of fiberglass out of my fingers, but hopefully I learned something.
Rocketjunkie
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If you are stepping up from Estes, LOC is the closest. Kits are complete and can be assembled with wood glue. 5 min epoxy is fast and can be used ti assemble LOC kits. They are cardboard and plywood with plastic nose cones. As previously stated, there are plenty of build threads here. Something like the Magnum will take you well into L2 motors.
The Wildman kits seem great, and I really liked that video. Thanks
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Started by in the 60's with Estes kits....took time off for family and got back into rockets when the kids were old enough to do science fair projects. First mid power kits were LOC. As I moved up, I learned much from attending launches and talking with people. As I moved into HP, I made many of the rookie mistakes....see the thread on rookie mistakes. While I had done hundreds of low and mid powered flights, I learned that there are no shortcuts in HP. Much learned by doing and seeing. I do highly recommend Mark Canepa's book on Modern High Powered Rocketry. While dated, much of the info is spot on. It covers getting ready for L1 thru L3. Good stuff and good luck to you on your journey. I hope you have as much fun as I've had in learning!
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It doesn't matter so much which kit you choose, as which glue you choose to hold it together.
That's kind of in jest, but also totally serious. You can put together a LOC kit with wood glue and spray Rusto on it, or you can go down the epoxy rabbit hole, then the fillet rabbit hole, then the filling, priming and painting rabbit hole. You can leave the fin edges square, sand them round, or DIY a router table to put uber-consistent radii or bevels on them. You can use simple motor eject, or you can add an ebay and choose from multiple different methods of DD.
You can choose to do or not do as much of it as you want on each kit, whether it's Estes, LOC, AeroTech, Quest, Balsa Machining, or any of the others. Very little is required, but you can go as far as you want and can afford or imagine. I am not aware of any kit that will teach you all these things if you just follow its assembly instructions. Learn by reading, then really learn by doing.
That's kind of in jest, but also totally serious. You can put together a LOC kit with wood glue and spray Rusto on it, or you can go down the epoxy rabbit hole, then the fillet rabbit hole, then the filling, priming and painting rabbit hole. You can leave the fin edges square, sand them round, or DIY a router table to put uber-consistent radii or bevels on them. You can use simple motor eject, or you can add an ebay and choose from multiple different methods of DD.
You can choose to do or not do as much of it as you want on each kit, whether it's Estes, LOC, AeroTech, Quest, Balsa Machining, or any of the others. Very little is required, but you can go as far as you want and can afford or imagine. I am not aware of any kit that will teach you all these things if you just follow its assembly instructions. Learn by reading, then really learn by doing.
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OP, are you starting to see how many different opinions you're going to get?
My buddy uses the term "analysis paralysis, and I think it happens no matter what endeavor you're trying to get into.. whether it be cars or bikes or guns or whatever.
Just pick one and go for it, hopefully you'll be building them for years to come.
Just pick one and go for it, hopefully you'll be building them for years to come.
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