Best kit to learn from

[kitchw8436]

I grew up on Estes (like the Astron series), graduated to mid-power rocketry when my son got interested, and recently took up HPR when students in my department wanted to go for NASA's SLI competition. I do a lot of scratch builds 'cause I like designing. But I went with t a kit for my first HPR only because I wanted to do it pretty quickly. I chose Madcow's Super DX3 for a number of reasons including:
1) Big enough that you have room to learn stuff like inside fillets without the constraints of a 54mm motor mount in a 76 mm tube
2) Can fly for L1 with single deployment and no electronics and then add e-bay and learn dual deployment while still flying relatively inexpensive L1 motors (I did crash my first dual deployment flight but was able to rebuild it.)
3) Sturdy enough for your L2 flight once you've got dual deployment down

I've followed that with a 3" fiberglass kit, again for expediency. I picked the Composite Warehouse Prometheus, but there are many other options available. I'll be flying this at Texas Shootout over Memorial Day weekend if all goes well.

I'll probably be building mostly scratch built stuff from now on. That's how my low- and mid-power rocketry has gone. But the above combination provided a good HPR introduction sequence for me.

 

[Knundrm]

I stumbled on this sequence of builds for teaching newbies to the hobby by accident, but it makes sense to me.

1. Estes StormCaster (if you can find them still) - 24mm motor
2. Estes Executioner (add couplers and body tubes to lengthen/stretch the rocket - 4ft) 29mm motor
3. LOC IV (dual deploy) - 38mm L1 HPR
4. LOC VII ‐ HPR L2 54mm

All these rockets are pretty much 3 fins and a nosecone build with fin through the wall construction. That keeps assembly simple due to design similarity and build.

But, with the build progression of these rockets, you can add completely/techniques, with each progression.

Hope it helps!

 

[smstachwick]

I’ve had a couple rockets that stand out for practicing HPR techniques.

The Estes Star Orbiter proved to be an ideal platform for practicing through-the-wall fin construction, fin papering, epoxy construction, and reloadable motors. Some others have put avionics bays in them and converted them for electronic ejection or full dual-deployment.

Currently I’m building an Enerjet by AeroTech Astrobee D for L1. It’s recommended for use with F or G motors but I have it on good authority that it’s very sturdy and suited to H flights. I see nothing wrong with setting aside the forward section or the coupler for use as a payload bay.

The best broad recommendation I can make is to pick up a kit that can take a 24mm, 29mm, or 38mm motor and give your new techniques/materials a try, modifying the kit if necessary. Do a build thread or bring it to the range, see what others think of your work. Test-fly it on motors small enough to make a short hop and amp up the power to put it through its paces. Get it back easily on a strong G motor and you’re ready for L1, with either your testbed rocket or something built specifically for the certification flight.

 

[Rschub]

There is no secret ingredient.

 

[BigMacDaddy]

Deep Stuff sounds like a rocket name......

Although might be a good candidate for a lawn dart / core sample.

 

[JohnCoker]

I put together an article on the techniques and tips missing from standard kit instructions:
http://www.jcrocket.com/kitbuilding.shtml
Plus there's a video on mods to a Loc/Precision kit that I like:
http://www.jcrocket.com/certify-level-1.shtml

 

[bcook7135]

Highly recommend the Coker video. It helped me a lot and now I am L1 certified.

 

[Bdwg]

I put together an article on the techniques and tips missing from standard kit instructions:
http://www.jcrocket.com/kitbuilding.shtml
Plus there's a video on mods to a Loc/Precision kit that I like:
http://www.jcrocket.com/certify-level-1.shtml

Fantastic!

 

[fyrwrxz]

Pretty soon, you will realize that a particular bird you've chosen to build will incorporate dozens of tips, tricks, techniques and cheats you can pick up from your buddies or here on TRF. Just the sheer volume of experience here can be overwhelming. Don't let it paralyze you. I just built my first "balsa bird' in 30 years and had forgotten a lot of basic LPR techniques other chaps do as easily as breathing. That said, I love a rocket from 13mm motors to 54's. I will never be Level 3 per an antique agreement with my wife. Are they cool too? Yeah, but so are liquids and EX motors. It's about your own comfort zone and what makes you happy. It's a hobby, and as challenging as it can be, it still needs to be FUN. It's the journey, not the destination. As I drilled into my kids, learn something, anything, new every day. You'll never be bored. Straight smoke and good chutes.

 

[LANZA COLINA]

Start with a good cardboard kit. Fly it as much as you like.
Build a cardboard kit and customize it to your liking and fly it to make sure it does what you designed it to do.
Build a rocket with a new technique like a fiberglass tip to tip layup over cardboard or a phenolic tube/blue tube/quantum tube/fiberglass tube and see what you like to do. Some of us hate sanding so we stay as far away from it as possible. Other of us find it fun to see how smooth and polished we can get the finished product.
Add dual deploy somewhere in there.
Add staging depending on where you fly and your waiver.
Add clustering motors.
So many fun options to try and just see what is fun for you. No one things is right. Enjoy the journey and interact with as many people as you are comfortable with as possible.

 

[BigMacDaddy]

TIFWIW but I wonder is it worth it to pick up some larger LPR kits that can handle epoxy, being glassed, through-wall fins, etc... so you can experiment on slightly cheaper and smaller rockets? Does not seem like you need to incorporate all the HPR approaches in the same rocket kit.

 

[Rob Campbell]

TIFWIW but I wonder is it worth it to pick up some larger LPR kits that can handle epoxy, being glassed, through-wall fins, etc... so you can experiment on slightly cheaper and smaller rockets? Does not seem like you need to incorporate all the HPR approaches in the same rocket kit.

North Coast Rocketry makes some very nice mid-power kits that perfectly fit with your recommendation. And, the NCR kits are reasonably priced.

 

[JSW]

The "best kit to learn from" for "first HPR rocket" is definitely the Apogee Zephyr or Apogee Katana.

(Note: The Apogee Katana is essentially the Apogee Zephyr plus an e-Bay. Can fly the Katana with/without the e-Bay. Or can add the e-Bay later to the Zephyr.)

The reason why these are the the best kits as an entry to learning HPR basics:

• relatively cheap. ($105 for the Zephyr!)
• everything included. (includes the parachute(s), chute protector(s), etc.)
• great instructions and instruction videos of every step in the process from Apogee
• build techniques: epoxy construction, fillets, through wall fins, body tube spiral filling, nosecone painting.
• e-Bay and dual deploy not required for flights, but has flexibility to experiment when ready.
• can be used for L1 and L2 cert

For more advanced techniques, I guess the question is: Do you want the "kit to teach you" or do you want to be "taught by the kit"? aka,... Are you expecting the kit instructions/videos to walk through the techniques required to build it,... or the kit forces you to research and learn how to do it?

 

[KenECoyote]

The best kit to learn from for me was any design which I was in love with.

This really pushed me to learn and do everything I could to make it happen (research, read instructions carefully, find build threads and videos, etc.).

• Was it perfect? No.
• Did I make mistakes? Yes.
• Did I learn a lot. Yes.

Of course you also need to be realistic about the size of the gap between your skill level and ambitions.

Current example: I'm working on a 4"D Colonial Viper and thought it would be really cool to have motors in the three outer pods for added smoke trails. I've never done airstarts, but for me this is a very good reason to start now.

 

[smstachwick]

The "best kit to learn from" for "first HPR rocket" is definitely the Apogee Zephyr or Apogee Katana.

(Note: The Apogee Katana is essentially the Apogee Zephyr plus an e-Bay. Can fly the Katana with/without the e-Bay. Or can add the e-Bay later to the Zephyr.)

The reason why these are the the best kits as an entry to learning HPR basics:

• relatively cheap. ($105 for the Zephyr!)
• everything included. (includes the parachute(s), chute protector(s), etc.)
• great instructions and instruction videos of every step in the process from Apogee
• build techniques: epoxy construction, fillets, through wall fins, body tube spiral filling, nosecone painting.
• e-Bay and dual deploy not required for flights, but has flexibility to experiment when ready.
• can be used for L1 and L2 cert

For more advanced techniques, I guess the question is: Do you want the "kit to teach you" or do you want to be "taught by the kit"? aka,... Are you expecting the kit instructions/videos to walk through the techniques required to build it,... or the kit forces you to research and learn how to do it?

An important distinction for sure.

Apogee also manufactures the Peregrine. Aside from the fin planform and 38mm mount it’s similar to the Katana, kind of sitting between it and the Zephyr in the product line.







Together those kits will take you from G to L motors or possibly even wider of a range than that.

 

[mikec]

If you ask me, some of the kits mentioned (not naming names) have fins that are unnecessarily breakable. I'm a little confused by how they have ended up dominating the L1 attempt market.

I guess it does teach you a lesson.

 

[MidOH]

Not all of us launch off the salt flats. Trailing fins are an easy instant way to ensure a stable launch, every time. CA seal the edges.

And most of those are thick 1/4" fins. But even thin 1/8" fins do fine in the wet midwest. If the grounds soft enough, the thin fin may even show less force, as it simply slices in.

 

[thzero]

A mid power kit

 

[Renaissance Man]

I came back to the hobby last year (after 15+ years away- and even then was only a novice kid). I started with building an Estes rocket quickly, then an Estes rocket slowly with lots of sanding and focus on paint, and then I took time doing and launching a couple more. I still kinda love the small Estes kits, which you can paint/polish to beauty.

But so far, I think that LOC has some pretty great products. The instructions for Photon were good enough (with some help from folks here) to build a MPR. I am currently building the "Sky Fieri." This was designed with or by the Hot Nozzle Society. It has a lot more detailed instructions than other options I looked into. I kinda hate the name, but it has been a good and relatively easy first HPR build so far (priming/sanding at the moment). Fingers crossed, I feel that way after going for my L1.

 

[jqavins]

Thanks for the responses, but I was being quite literal with the request. I appreciate the pointers on how to learn more, and they are all good and valid. I have built many low powered rockets, and I am also very well read on the topics of both low and high powered rocketry. Not trying to run before I walk or anything like that, just looking for an advanced kit with very good instructions to learn more from.

Not trying to be rude, I just don’t want the thread to turn into a discussion on how there are better ways to learn.

Yeah, it drives me nuts when I ask (or someone asks) "How do I do X", and replies come in like "Do Y instead." That's not an answer to the question asked.

So, confining myself to your question, um, I don't know anything other people haven't already said, i.e. that there are plenty of good kit choices. But please forgive me for going part way to the "Do Y instead" response.

I suspect that trying to pick one "best kit to learn from" is futile. I don't just mean because there are many good choices that are all more than adequate, which is true, but that the tings you want to learn will likely require more than one build.

You mentioned as examples that you want to "bridge that knowledge gap between balsa, paper and wood glue to epoxy, fiberglass and electronics"; building with fiberglass and epoxy is a different thing to learn than using electronics. Sure, they can be done with the same kit, but you may very well not want to. By building with fiberglass, did you mean buying fiberglass parts, or laminating cardboard and wood with glass cloth; those have to be two separate builds. And so on.

 

[bchaltraw]

As a kid, I started with Estes Rockets, learning the basics of $12-15 rockets. Each rocket has been a learning experience. I did an L1 through fin design, 38MM motor H, and I. I did not fiberglass the tubes but found out why people do, as the ground is really hard out here in the desert. Got a DX3 for an L2 and fiberglassed the tube; on my L2, the plastic rivets did not like the wind and shock and removed themselves, causing the whole payload section to free-fall over 1000'. Picked it up, added screws instead of plastic, and got my L2 done. Decided to do a 4' Frenzy, glassed it, did Tip to Tip, and Kevlar reinforced the top as insurance against a zipper. Learned a bunch on that one; multiple fins and alignment were tricky. Worked into an all-fiberglass 2.2" Frenzy; since I already built a bigger Frenzy, I knew what I was in for, but fiberglass tubes had their own challenges, different ways to cut, and align, and it is imperative to clean and be aggressive with sanding all of the glue points. This built the foundation for a fiberglass L3 I built, and now doing a 7.5" 12' 98MM motored monster. It's a bit of a story, but at no point did I think this is easy. Each one built a foundation for the process for the next one. Learn how to leverage OpenRocket or RockSim, don't shoot for the moon with altitude; build for I 1st fly and confirm with a lower power H. Make sure everything is safe and works before putting the juice into it. Completely agree people overthink a build; getting into High power takes planning. You cannot just run down to Hobby Lobby and get the pieces, LOC/Madcow/WIldman will get you a solid kit, but did you get an engine retainer? Recovery items? Ordered your MissleWorks Altimeter from them in Hawaii. How to solder an EggFinder? Do you have droge shoots of different sizes to get the right decent rate? And do not even get me started on figuring out deployment delays when no Altimeter is involved!

 

[Hobie1dog]

50 replies, even more confused now?

 

[bchaltraw]

50 replies, even more confused now?

Your signature line must be wrong. You got your L2 on August 23, and we are in June. Are you a time traveler? Where should I invest my money in the next two months? lol

 

[samb]

https://www.fusionrocket.biz/store-2/?model_number=FUS3
https://www.fusionrocket.biz/store-2/?model_number=DBL3

Scott Binder has the most complete kits. And John Cokers videos are "must see". And John Coker's https://www.thrustcurve.org/ is a must have tool.

 

[Hobie1dog]

Your signature line must be wrong. You got your L2 on August 23, and we are in June. Are you a time traveler? Where should I invest my money in the next two months? lol View attachment 587931

good eye, impressive, but I'm elderly so I have a lifetime of becoming an expert at mistakes.

 

[bchaltraw]

good eye, impressive, but I'm elderly so I have a lifetime of becoming an expert at mistakes.

Does that mean you cannot share your stock picks for the next two months?

 

[Hobie1dog]

Does that mean you cannot share your stock picks for the next two months?

I've invested in stocks twice, made a fair amount with Owens Corning when I worked there but it got driven up by a takeover bid, but 1/2 of us also got canned as a result. Second time lost all my money. I don't even give advice on which restaurants to go eat at anymore. The last time I did that the person said they thought it was low grade food.

 

[Buckeye]

Yeah, it drives me nuts when I ask (or someone asks) "How do I do X", and replies come in like "Do Y instead." That's not an answer to the question asked.

Normally, I would agree with you, but in this case, the OP's question is very bizarre and unanswerable. There is no "best" way to learn anything.

If you want to learn fiberglass, buy a fiberglass kit.

If you want to learn electronics, buy a kit with a payload bay or that is "dual deploy capable."

If you want a kit with well-written instructions included in the box, buy from Apogee.

 

[Lamp]

I will second the Madcow kits. They come with build instructions too which helps if you are new to HPR.

Many years ago I built a Madcow 2.6" HV Arcas kit with a 29mm motor mount which was my second HPR rocket build. My first was a 4" LOC V2 which I did my L1 with. Even though I am L3 and normally fly bigger rockets and bigger motors, I still fly the Arcas occasionally on H motors just for fun and a few laughs, it has probably flown over 30 times.