An "R"-powered rocket build

Discussion in 'High Power Rocketry (HPR)' started by Rail Dawg, Nov 30, 2018.

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  1. Jul 3, 2019 #1,981

    Bat-mite

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    Well, Peter Pan, I hate to break it to you, but ...
     
  2. Jul 3, 2019 #1,982

    Rail Dawg

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    Good point about the cops... I've been pulled over a few times when I carried the rockets on the roof of my SUV. They were always professional (a few people call in and rat me out) but all it takes is a Barney Fife to not know the laws and there could be some problems.

    I'm going to bring a copy of the Class 3 application that has the FAA waiver application attached.

    Also a copy of the law regarding the carriage of APCP (Ammonium Perchlorate Composite Propellant).

    APCP is classified as 1.3 the same as fireworks. Here's a scenario and response that applies to what we do:

    (HMR; 49 CFR Parts 171-180) applicable to the transportation of display fireworks.

    Scenario 1: An individual transports Division 1.3 display fireworks to a private residential property, such as a farm, for non-commercial purposes. You ask whether such transportation is subject to the HMR.

    Response 1: The answer is no. As provided by§ 171.l(d)(6), the transportation of a hazardous material by an individual for non-commercial purposes in a private motor vehicle, including a leased or rented motor vehicle, is not subject to the HMR.

    If any of you have any further input on this issue I'm listening. Almost guaranteed I'll be pulled over with a rocket the size of a telephone pole in tow lol.

    Chuck C.
     
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  3. Jul 4, 2019 #1,983

    Ez2cDave

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    Chuck,

    "From my chair", this is how I would play it . . .

    (1) Make a bunch of telephone calls to Police Chiefs and Sheriffs along the driving route. Also contact the Highway Patrol and speak to someone as high up the "food chain" as possible.

    (2) Get and record their names, plus the office they hold. Get telephone numbers for all, just in case "Barney Fife" starts having a "hissy fit" !

    (3) Arrange to either email or Fax them a brief "Information Package" about the project.

    (4) Ask them for written confirmation of the receipt of data, plus written confirmation that they are aware of the scope of your activities, in a format suitable to show LEO's ( Official Letterhead ) along the route, if necessary. ( FAX or Email should suffice )

    (5) Be "proactive", not "reactive" !

    Dave F.

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    Last edited: Jul 4, 2019
  4. Jul 4, 2019 #1,984

    llickteig1

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    Chuck,

    You aren't doing anything even remotely illegal. There is honestly no reason to call attention to yourself with any local LEOs. You're hauling fiberglass and aluminum that happens to look like a rocket. Info on APCP is fine to bring to share if you do get stopped. One thing you might educate yourself in is trailer weight and license tag requirements. Know those laws.

    If you announce you're coming through, they'll be looking for you.

    --Lance.
     
    Last edited: Jul 4, 2019
  5. Jul 4, 2019 #1,985

    Ez2cDave

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    Lance,

    It "just happens to look like a rocket", plus a big-azz rocket motor, several hundred pounds of propellant, and a bunch of electronics that are completely unfamiliar to almost all cops. Don't forget that FFFFG Black Powder is being used, other than in a muzzle-loader. I don't think Chuck is a licensed Pyrotechnian, so there could definitely be some "problems" !

    If he informs them in advance, they inform their personnel at the beginning of each shift. That way, they will know in advance, avoiding "hassles" along the way.

    If he "isn't doing anything remotely illegal", why would they be "looking for him", when he comes through ?

    I strongly suspect that most, if not all, Police Chiefs, Sheriffs, and upper Law Enforcement officials would be thankful for being "in the loop", rather than potentially having an "officer-involved incident" out on the highway . . . We do have an awful lot of "trigger happy" Cops out there, nowadays !

    Are you willing to cover his bail and attorney fees, if Chuck takes your advice and tries to "sneak through", undetected, and things "go South" ?

    Dave F.

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    Last edited: Jul 4, 2019
  6. Jul 4, 2019 #1,986

    3stoogesrocketry

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    Shoot Tim better start calling every police department along his travels . God forbid a cop pulls over his trailer with a 1000 plus pounds of AP in it. Yes I will 100 percent cover Chucks legal cost , since he is 100 percent in the clear . I guess the tripoli lawsuit is new to you Dave ? Relax , seriously . Chuck has gone above and beyond with this project in terms of making sure it is done right . You do not need to be a licensed muzzle loader to have 4f powder . I can walk down to my local sporting goods store and buy as much 4f as I can carry out.
     
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  7. Jul 4, 2019 #1,987

    Rail Dawg

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    Dave I'm with Lance on this one.

    Most of my police encounters hauling rockets were just officers interested (like everyone is) about the rocket. A few times a "concerned citizen" dropped a dime on me but even then the police were quite friendly.

    And you're right Lance good common sense on hauling a trailer is always prudent.

    Thanks!

    Chuck C.
     
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  8. Jul 4, 2019 #1,988

    Ez2cDave

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    Tim Lehr is a licensed Dealer ( at least I hope he is ).

    No, the Tripoli/NAR BATFE lawsuit is not new to me.

    Black powder is not "legal" for use in Rocket ejection charges ( without a LEUP ), even though "everyone does it".

    If you "carry out" or possess more than 50lbs at a time, it must be stored in a Low Explosives magazine AND have a LEUP.

    The "Law" . . .

    (b) Black powder. Except for the provisions applicable to persons required to be licensed under subpart D, this part does not apply with respect to commercially manufactured black powder in quantities not to exceed 50 pounds, percussion caps, safety and pyrotechnic fuses, quills, quick and slow matches, and friction primers, if the black powder is intended to be used solely for sporting, recreational, or cultural purposes in antique firearms, as defined in 18 U.S.C. 921(a)(16) or antique devices, as exempted from the term “destructive devices” in 18 U.S.C. 921(a)(4).
    [T.D. ATF–87, 46 FR 40384, Aug. 7, 1981 as amended by T.D. ATF–87, 46 FR 46916, Sept. 23, 1981; T.D. ATF–293, 55 FR 3722, Feb. 5, 1990; T.D. ATF–387, 62 FR 8377, Feb. 25, 1997; T.D. ATF–400, 63 FR 45003, Aug. 24, 1998; ATF No. 1, 68 FR 13792, Mar. 20, 2003; ATF 6F, 71 FR 46101, Aug. 11, 2006]

    Please note that the law states "this part does not apply with respect to commercially manufactured black powder in quantities not to exceed 50 pounds, percussion caps, safety and pyrotechnic fuses, quills, quick and slow matches, and friction primers, if the black powder is intended to be used solely for sporting, recreational, or cultural purposes in antique firearms"

    END QUOTE:

    This is where some people believe the law says the use of BP is legal for use in recreational activities (rocketry). When in fact it says the use of BP is exempt if the black powder is intended to be used solely for sporting, recreational, or cultural purposes in antique firearms.

    The 50 pound exemption applies only to the use of Black Powder in Antique Firearms.

    Dave F.

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    Last edited: Jul 4, 2019
  9. Jul 4, 2019 #1,989

    Ez2cDave

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    Lance,

    If you are arrested and formally charged, you are only "100 percent in the clear" after the Jury says so . . . That, of course, comes after you have paid your criminal defense lawyer, up front, and that money doesn't "come back", after the trial is over.

    Dave F.

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  10. Jul 4, 2019 #1,990

    blackjack2564

    blackjack2564

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    Carry a copy of any rockets magazine along. If you are stopped inform them you are headed to a sanctioned rocketry event, complete with FAA waiver, covered by Tripoli insurance, and you are a card carrying member. You are headed to an event covered several times by the Discovery channel that has been extensively covered by them on TV.

    I hand them the magazine and its always a non issue.

    Like you said they usually just want a first hand look out of pure curiosity.
    I have been stopped 3 time with large rockets and 9 times driving a Pantera car [remember those lol]..all stops were just curiosity.

    As others mention do NOT alert any authority in advance .....that's just asking for it.
    The only time it was an issue was going through Illinois toll both where the booth attendant asked me to pull over......so he and the others could take turns shutting down their booths and look at the "Gone Banana's rocket in my truck bed...lol
    My experience has always been one of courtesy and respect. Never a threat of arrest.

    Dave your a smart guy with tons of info...but on this one I beg to differ with you.

    Good Luck with your flight!
     
    Last edited: Jul 4, 2019
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  11. Jul 4, 2019 #1,991

    Ez2cDave

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    Chuck,

    If you're not going to inform Law Enforcement, in advance, you may as well just head over to Harbor Freight, buy a couple of large tarps and cover the whole thing, so no one sees what's on the trailer, at all.

    Dave F.

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  12. Jul 4, 2019 #1,992

    Rail Dawg

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    I appreciate the idea there Dave.

    Tarps going from Houston to the Black Rock for this kind of load last to about the New Mexico border lol.

    Plus they beat the crud out of the rocket.

    Chuck C.
     
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  13. Jul 4, 2019 #1,993

    Ez2cDave

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    Chuck,

    Speaking of that, how are you planning to protect the rocket from rocks and other debris flying up from the road ?

    Dave F.

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  14. Jul 4, 2019 #1,994

    Rail Dawg

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    The Q motor casing is 9.5' long. While there's a chance we could get an R out of that casing we decided to play it safe and build another motor casing that is 10' long.

    The rocket was designed to fit the 9.5' long motor so another 6" in length has been designed in. It's not as simple as putting on an additional piece of 6" airframe and calling it good. Because the motors are retained from the top a 6" coupler assembly had to be built to handle the longer 10' motor.

    The first picture shows that 6" coupler assembly and the second picture shows the booster section with that assembly installed.

    The 30" long coupler assembly that was part of the original designed is now slid into place on top of the new 6" coupler assembly.

    The third picture shows the 117.5" from the bottom of the lowest thrust plate on the rocket to where the longer motor case top will be. Birch spacers need to be added to fill the gap.

    The fourth picture shows the 3/4" birch spacers that ensure the 1/4" aluminum motor retainer plate will fit just above the top of the upper enclosure of the motor casing.

    On top of those spacers is where the 5' drogue section will be coupled up. I'm working on the drogue section now but it's a fairly easy build as it's just an 8" G-12 tube and 3 centering rings. The hard part is getting the 8" tube at exactly the right height above the motor retention plate as that 8" tube takes the place of stringers.

    The last picture is the fins after I washed and waxed them. Wanted to get a nice coat of wax on them to prevent oxidation.

    Chuck C.

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    Last edited: Jul 4, 2019
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  15. Jul 4, 2019 #1,995

    Rail Dawg

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    A big thumbs-up to Mike at Binder Design for a fantastic set of fins.

    Mike put a huge amount of effort into this part of the project and these are a thing of beauty!

    Chuck C.
     
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  16. Jul 5, 2019 #1,996

    blackjack2564

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    Just a word of caution....I did a fincan on a 4in.when painted with auto paint and clear, the aluminum fincan would no longer fit.
    Had the tedious job of sand the **** out of it to get can back on.
    Don't know if your painting or not and if you are, with what. Thought i would mention.

    That can sure is purdy!
     
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  17. Jul 5, 2019 #1,997

    Rail Dawg

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    Great advice!

    That fin can isn't leaving the airframe. It's a perfect fit and you're right any kind of additional paint would create a problem.

    The fins will be masked off before going into the paint shop.

    Thanks for looking out for things like this.

    Chuck C.
     
  18. Jul 5, 2019 #1,998

    Bat-mite

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    Awesome! I will miss seeing this sucker fly. :(
     
  19. Jul 5, 2019 #1,999

    markg

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    Wow, those fins are a work of art! @Binder Design did a fantastic job!

    cheers - mark
     
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  20. Jul 5, 2019 #2,000

    FredA

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    Is this true for this size motor?

    Once you glue the grains in, with this much AP, does this not become classified as 1.4?
    Large commercial N's with glued-together grains were required to ship as 1.4's in the past.
     
    Last edited: Jul 5, 2019
  21. Jul 5, 2019 #2,001

    MClark

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    DOT classification is a place you don't want to go.
    Since no tests were done to assign a class it is not 1.4 or anything else.

    If I was moving this rocket the motor/propellant would be in a separate vehicle so if the truck towing the trailer with airframe gets pulled over it's all inert.

    M
     
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  22. Jul 5, 2019 #2,002

    Rail Dawg

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    It's my understanding that because this is a non-commercial load the Hazardous Materials Regulations do not apply.

    However like many things I can be wrong and I'd like to find a definitive answer.

    Lots of smart people on here... surely we can find the answer.

    If it gets down to hauling the grains separately that's not a problem. However it would be better logistically to be able to haul the whole thing on one vehicle.

    Chuck C.
     
  23. Jul 5, 2019 #2,003

    Rail Dawg

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    Just got word from a DOT expert.

    Under 1000 lbs non-commercial it's not a problem.

    Chuck C.
     
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  24. Jul 5, 2019 #2,004

    Ez2cDave

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    Chuck,

    Are there any "State Laws" along the intended Driving Routes that might cause problems ? ("Fireworks", for example ) . . . Also, "County Ordinances", especially in "hole in the wall" places, can often be problematic for "certain activities".

    Dave F.

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  25. Jul 5, 2019 #2,005

    Ez2cDave

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    Chuck,

    I agree . . .

    A second vehicle, that appears to be completely non-associated with you, is an excellent idea.

    It would travel a distance, either in front of or behind you, not right with you.

    The Propellant, BP, and Igniters should be transported in it.

    If you get stopped, they continue on to the next exit and wait for you.

    Dave F.

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  26. Jul 5, 2019 #2,006

    Rail Dawg

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    I may not have been clear lol.

    The DOT regulations apply.

    Under 1000 lbs and non-commercial it is completely legal to haul the motor even with the rocket.

    Already a difficult project logistically-speaking. Not going to complicate it further. Best to know the DOT regulations and proceed.

    Thanks!

    Chuck C.
     
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  27. Jul 5, 2019 #2,007

    Ez2cDave

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    Dave F.

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  28. Jul 6, 2019 #2,008

    Binder Design

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    Thanks Mark! I had some fun with it. :)
     
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  29. Jul 6, 2019 #2,009

    rharshberger

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    Most states follow Federal DOT regs when it comes to HAZMAT, generally they are the most restrictive. I personally am unaware of states that are more restrictive on Hazmat than 49 CFR 100-185. Some states may not allow certain types of waste (radioactive usually) to transit but that is about it.
     
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  30. Jul 6, 2019 #2,010

    Rail Dawg

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    Thanks for this Rich.

    We are doing our best to follow all DOT, FAA and NFPA 1127 regulations along with the Tripoli Safety Code.

    It’s taken seriously and inputs such as yours are appreciated. Thankfully there are several important gates that must be passed before this rocket is launched.

    Looking forward to a thorough evaluation as we get this rocket ready for LDRS 38 and BALLS 28. It’s getting close and the pressure is on!

    Chuck C.
     
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