Advice needed: Lathes

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AtlPhilip

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I am considering adding a metal lathe to my shop. As it will primarily be a hobby tool (for now), I do not want to spend a fortune. But I also do not want to spend good money on a piece of junk. i.e. Buy cheap, buy twice.

Experience? I get the concepts, but have never actually used a lathe (wood or metal). I do have lots of experience with other types of tools/trades incl woodworking, electrical, plumbing, auto repair, electronics repair, etc. I.e. I'm not that guy who owns one small tool box that I use to hang pictures.

Uses? It will primarily be used in research motor making. But I'm an avid DIYer so I can see where it could come in handy for other purposes. Like my brake rotors that currently need flattening.

@prfesser - I saw that you made a Gingery lathe. That project very much appeals to me, but the reality is that I have so many projects going that it'll never get done. Maybe when I'm retired.

Let's hear it! What advice do you have?
 
As a brake engineer, I would be very astonished if you could get rotors right on a standard metal working lathe.
Thanks. As someone with no experience, my knowledge ends at "a lathe is used for precision turning of metal parts". And brake rotors was the first thing that came to mind.

If you don't mind, educate me a bit. What are the differences between a standard metal lathe and a dedicated brake lathe that make the standard lathe unsuitable for this task? I always assumed that shops used brake lathes purely because a dedicated purpose machine was more efficient at the task than a general purpose machine.
 
A brake lathe cuts both sides of the rotor at the same time, guaranteeing parallel sides and consistent thickness. Most cars will tolerate up to around 0.003 lateral runout, but only about 1/10 of that for thickness variation. Almost impossible to achieve by doing one side and then the other in a separate chucking.
 
I am considering adding a metal lathe to my shop. As it will primarily be a hobby tool (for now), I do not want to spend a fortune. But I also do not want to spend good money on a piece of junk. i.e. Buy cheap, buy twice.

Experience? I get the concepts, but have never actually used a lathe (wood or metal). I do have lots of experience with other types of tools/trades incl woodworking, electrical, plumbing, auto repair, electronics repair, etc. I.e. I'm not that guy who owns one small tool box that I use to hang pictures.

Uses? It will primarily be used in research motor making. But I'm an avid DIYer so I can see where it could come in handy for other purposes. Like my brake rotors that currently need flattening.

@prfesser - I saw that you made a Gingery lathe. That project very much appeals to me, but the reality is that I have so many projects going that it'll never get done. Maybe when I'm retired.

Let's hear it! What advice do you have?
What size research motors? I have owned a Grizzly G0602 (10"×22") for about six years now, and I burn mostly 38mm motors, with a few 29s and 54s. I have occasionally wished it was bigger; Ideally the spindle bore would fit the largest diameter casing you plan to machine. Otherwise, I have been very satisfied with it.
 
I have owned a Grizzly G0602 (10"×22")

Nice. $3k is a bit out of my budget unless I want to give up rocketry and take up lathing as my hobby.

So I know what Distance Between Centers means. When they say Swing Over Bed, is that center to bed (radius) or max to max (diameter).

The G0602 says SOB = 9-1/2. But the jaw looks to be about 3in. Does that mean I could buy and install a 6in jaw?
The underlying question. If I wanted to chuck up a 3in nozzle (or tube), could I?

What size research motors?
I plan to fly 1000-3000 N-S
Probably 38mm for test burns, 54 for flights.

I'm getting back in after a long hiatus. Designing and building has gotten a bit routine, so I'm thinking that Ex might be a way to rekindle the fire. That, and I've never been a huge fan of AT hardware vs snap ring motors.
 
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Is there a maker-space somewhere near you can join and get some experience on their shop equipment? No better way to learn what the requirements would be for your needs.

BTW: Tools and accessories will be large part of your sub $3K budget.
 
Is there a maker-space somewhere near you can join and get some experience on their shop equipment?

That is a fantastic idea, and one that did not even cross my mind. Thank you.

BTW: Tools and accessories will be large part of your sub $3K budget.

That's what I've heard. Someone said allocate 50% for machine, 50% for tooling.

I'm kind of in that weird place right now where I like the idea, but a proper setup may or may not make good fiscal sense. And that means the maker space is a fantastic idea.
 
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I am considering adding a metal lathe to my shop. As it will primarily be a hobby tool (for now), I do not want to spend a fortune. But I also do not want to spend good money on a piece of junk. i.e. Buy cheap, buy twice.

Experience? I get the concepts, but have never actually used a lathe (wood or metal). I do have lots of experience with other types of tools/trades incl woodworking, electrical, plumbing, auto repair, electronics repair, etc. I.e. I'm not that guy who owns one small tool box that I use to hang pictures.

Uses? It will primarily be used in research motor making. But I'm an avid DIYer so I can see where it could come in handy for other purposes. Like my brake rotors that currently need flattening.

@prfesser - I saw that you made a Gingery lathe. That project very much appeals to me, but the reality is that I have so many projects going that it'll never get done. Maybe when I'm retired.

Let's hear it! What advice do you have?
Okay, you asked for it... :)

Build a Gingery lathe---and the other make-it-from-scrap tools---when you've retired. For fun. Because they're far too time consuming if what you want is a lathe. (If you don't have and don't ever expect to have the money, that's a different matter.) The basic Gingery lathe is okay for turning and boring, but it'll be a long time before you can cut threads. Because you need a dividing head to make the dozen or so gears to do that. And you need a milling machine to make the dividing head. And you need the simple lathe (and, of course, the foundry) to build the milling machine. It's a ball of snakes.

[If you do decide to make the Gingery lathe, the only changes I'd suggest are (A) make it 7x18 instead of 7x12, and (B) make the bed in the style of the milling machine bed, and mount it on a heavy base for rigidity and vibration resistance. Increasing the swing is fraught with un-fun changes. Believe me, I know.]

The 7x10, 7x12, etc. units sold by Horrible Fright and others are okay but the between-centers distance is just too short for much of what I wanted to do.

I bought one like this, 8.7x29". Mine is metric, which I would not have bought if I'd noticed. I'm just used to the Imperial system of measurement. It's not a super-problem but it's a continuous minor annoyance for someone who still thinks in Imperial.

The hole through the spindle (in mine; may not be true for some) is slightly over 1.5" diameter, which is good for 38mm work.

Threading arrangement: On my lathe and most similar ones, the motor has to be reversed and the lathe backed up to the beginning of each pass for threading. Doing fifteen passes that way is tiresome. A more conventional (= more expensive) lathe has a threading dial that is much more convenient. And some common Imperial threads aren't available on mine. Also, changing the angle of the compound slide is a huge PITA. There are fixes for that online but I haven't gotten a round tuit yet.

Another annoyance is a lack of back gears. Those are great when you want to work at very low RPM and high torque, as for threading or heavy cuts.

The bed has conventional prism-shaped ways, which I like. But it's a lightweight bed for all of that. I almost tipped over the machine while placing it on the benchtop. Eventually I'll mount it on a heavy steel plate or a cast-concrete slab.

Depending on what you're doing, tooling doesn't have to be half the cost of the lathe, though it's easy to spend a lot. I fitted mine out with just a four-jaw chuck (HIGHLY recommended, make sure that it has the correct thread), dial indicator with magnetic base, carbide bits, set of drill bits, keyless drill chuck, and some other odds and ends.

Bottom line: Something like the Grizzly 11x26" unit, at twice the price, would definitely be a better buy, and if I'd had the money at the time I'd'a bought it. But mine is usable and not an enormous pain as long as you remember that 0.1 mm = 0.004", so a quarter of a tenth of a millimeter is about one-thousandth of an inch. Eventually I'll remember that. :)

[FWIW I've seen posts elsewhere from those who have bought a combination lathe-and-milling-machine. Most have pointed out that these are much less rigid than a conventional lathe and mill, and are not entirely satisfactory. I may build the milling machine later...but more likely that I'll buy a mill.]
 
Recently on a trip back from up north, my brother was driving and we decided to look at Facebook market place in the various towns we were passing through for 'stuff' that might be interesting that wasn't as available in our own local markets. I noted a good number of lathes, so I would consider using that resource to see what is available in your region. Some places, you'll find some interesting options.

As far as the machines go, it is very easy to buy a lathe that is smaller than you want for function, but bigger than you want from a floorspace situation. I have a Southbend Tool Room 10 (basically the heavy 10 + some other features). I will own it the rest of my life, but it takes up a good bit of space and is still a 'small' lathe. I might be able to put a 54mm tube through the pass-through, but I doubt it.

One other thing that happens with old lathes is that the DIY/homeowner guys tend to drive up prices for single phase 110V or 220V lathes, as they can just plug them in without any effort. A similar size lathe that requires 220V 3-phase might be 60% of the price for a single phase version, as most homeowner types don't understand what is required and then opt for the single phase, thereby driving up demand. Options can be to put a different motor on the lathe after you buy it, buy a phase converter or VFD etc., so at least consider looking at 3-phase lathes if searching for used equipment.

Every lathe, new or used, has a personality. There will be things you love and hate about any given machine. Be sure to learn the proper safety requirements, as even cheap, small lathes can do permanent damage to you if you neglect some simple safety practices. Once you've gotten the basics down (and adhere to the best practices by default) they are very safe machines in general, however.

Also, the quality (sharpness and geometry) of the turning tools you buy might have a bigger effect on overall quality than the machine itself. I'll take a somewhat tired old machine with the proper and sharp tools over and brand-new import machine with generic $10 carbide tooling any day of the week.

Sandy.
 
One other thing that happens with old lathes is that the DIY/homeowner guys tend to drive up prices for single phase 110V or 220V lathes, as they can just plug them in without any effort. A similar size lathe that requires 220V 3-phase might be 60% of the price for a single phase version, as most homeowner types don't understand what is required and then opt for the single phase, thereby driving up demand. Options can be to put a different motor on the lathe after you buy it, buy a phase converter or VFD etc., so at least consider looking at 3-phase lathes if searching for used equipment.

Excellent point, thank you.

Be sure to learn the proper safety requirements, as even cheap, small lathes can do permanent damage to you if you neglect some simple safety practices

Another my top 5 concerns, and something to research. Some stuff (like the invisible arrow on a table saw) is so simple once you know it, and so easy to do if you do not.

The hole through the spindle (in mine; may not be true for some) is slightly over 1.5" diameter, which is good for 38mm work.

Something else I need to consider. Because I'm almost certainly going to want to groove 54 for snap rings. Or... maybe just the closures and have someone do that.

So much to learn...
 
Few lathes have sufficient-hole-thru-spindle size for our hobby needs.
Although by far the easy way, there are many ways to skin that cat and you shouldn't prioritize that spec just to cut snap-ring grooves.
 
I bought one like this, 8.7x29". Mine is metric, which I would not have bought if I'd noticed. I'm just used to the Imperial system of measurement. It's not a super-problem but it's a continuous minor annoyance for someone who still thinks in Imperial.
Do what I did and change your brain’s default units, yes when you say that it’s 15km to the store people are going to look at you funny but idk I like metric more.
 
[snip]
Another my top 5 concerns, and something to research. Some stuff (like the invisible arrow on a table saw) is so simple once you know it, and so easy to do if you do not.
[/snip]
The super-most-important one is that no part of your body, clothing, hair etc. should ever come in contact with the spinning lathe (chuck, part etc). Best general rules are to never-ever wear gloves, if you are wearing long sleeves, get a heater and take the long sleeves off (don't roll them up, they will creep down), if you're one of those long-haired hippie people ( :) ) pull your hair back.

There are some other risks (eye protection and other typical shop stuff), but ensure every part of your body or anything connected to your body is far away from the rotating stuff as priority 1, IMO. Also, sometimes when turning, making a nice long chip seems cool, but when that 3ft long chip decides to grab and then start flinging around, it can cut you up pretty bad. I generally prefer to keep chips 6" or less and on my lathe, I just ease up on the feed a tiny bit and the chip breaks and you get a new chip started with very little change in surface finish. Personally, I keep my left hand on the fwd/off/rev handle almost 100% of the time when cutting and do any work I need to do with my right hand. Not practical 100% of the time, but in general, I want my hand in the right spot to shut things down. Some lathes have a foot brake etc., but I've never owned one that big and it is likely outside of typical budget for an individual hobbyist.

Hopefully the above doesn't turn (pun) you away from wanting to buy a lathe, as they are awesome tools that let you do awesome things. Hopefully it does encourage you to find the Makerspace or other community where you can get some good initial training to show you all the invisible arrows to save you potential heartache.
 
if you're one of those long-haired hippie people

Straps, sleeves, and gloves Dad taught me long ago. If my hair gets to 1/4in, it's been too long between cuts, so no issues there. My back, however. :D

Hopefully it does encourage you to find the Makerspace or other community where you can get some good initial training to show you all the invisible arrows to save you potential heartache.

Definitely, and thanks for the suggestion. You probably just saved me a lot of money either with an unnecessary purchase, or a less than ideal 1st purchase.

I've been fortunate in that none of my power tool "learning opportunities" have done any lasting damage. Some blood and a few minor scars, but I can still count to ten. The invisible arrow I will never forget. Just happily cutting some a rabbet when all of a sudden a thin wood shaft embedded itself in the back wall. 😳 Thank God my Dad also taught me to stand out of the path of the blade.
 
Why ruin a good casing by thinning it with a snap ring groove?! ;)
If you have to, use a steady rest and not worry about a spindle bore big enough to pass it through.
Use bolts or pins to hold the closures on.

Also, turning threads on a lathe is not something to try without the right equipment and practice.
(The best way to make threads is to use a CNC mini mill and a thread mill cutter.)
https://photos.app.goo.gl/GKaZSSBmb8Vu1UU29

On my 12 x 36 Birmingham lathe (same Chinese castings as Grizzly and Jet, etc), I have made up to 8" diameter R motors. I've had it for almost 20 years... paid $1200. You only need the lathe to make closures, nozzle carriers, nozzles, thrust rings, etc. One can match-drill the case & closures, or make a slip-on drill guide jig. Here's some 8" motor machining:
https://photos.app.goo.gl/TBZerov1jdMsibFH9

I've made 38mm hardware with bolted/pinned closures as well. Here's my AT-compatible design. Details are in the Research forum here on TRF.
https://photos.app.goo.gl/Hc3LGtubsoucJFWn6
https://photos.app.goo.gl/YwE1mfqFCVkddKW36


Here's my "new" lathe. A 24 x 80" MoriSeiki lathe. 1980's refirbished by Greer Machinery, who sold similar ones to SpaceX and other big companies. Weighs 8500 pounds. Has a 3-ph 15HP motor. My rotary phase converter has 30HP idler motor; it draws a 200 amp surge at startup!
Dropped in my driveway by a crane. I moved it into my garage alone. :)
https://photos.app.goo.gl/8Au6xMGp3MXXqtzDA
IMG_4908.JPG

I have a 3" x 34" boring bar for it, and an 8" ID roller steady. It has a 3" spindle bore pass through. The 3-jaw and 4-jaw chucks weigh 250 pounds each. Everything has to be hoisted into place. I still need to get more tooling and adjust things before I start making stuff.
 
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@jsdemar that is a lot to digest, thank you. If I could get that Birmingham lathe for $1200, I'd buy it tomorrow and then figure out the rest later.

Regarding the bolts. I thought TRA Ex rules required motors to fail axially. Is that a requirement for your projects? If so, how does one size the bolts/pattern.
 
Regarding the bolts. I thought TRA Ex rules required motors to fail axially. Is that a requirement for your projects? If so, how does one size the bolts/pattern.
The case will tear out at the ends before the the bolts will shear. I have a spreadsheet to calculate the number of bolts and the spacings. My presentation at TRATECH 2021 is under the "Media" section on the Tripoli website (member login required). There are links to my spreadsheets there.
 
The case will tear out at the ends before the the bolts will shear. I have a spreadsheet to calculate the number of bolts and the spacings. My presentation at TRATECH 2021 is under the "Media" section on the Tripoli website (member login required). There are links to my spreadsheets there.

Thanks for all the insight. I just renewed NAR, I've got to renew my TRA membership next (January).
 
If you are considering 7x lathes, there's great info at https://www.mini-lathe.com/

Also check out the Info and resources available at littlemachineshop.com, such as this mini-lathe buying guide.

The short version is they're almost all made by the same company in China. There's no difference in quality, so buy according to features and price rather than brand. And if you're looking really small, note that 7x10 mini-lathes are really 7x8.

You will probably want a quick change tool post (QCTP). A cam lock tail stock is really handy. A four-jaw chuck and dial indicator with a holder will help maximize precision.

Finally, you probably want to get the biggest lathe that fits your space and budget. 1) you can do small work on a big lathe, but you can't do big work on a small lathe. 2) even with small work, the bigger lathe has more mass and stiffness, so it can achieve better results. (But tools, chucks, and everything else will cost more!)
 
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If you are considering 7x lathes, there's great info at https://www.mini-lathe.com/

Also check out the Info and resources available at littlemachineshop.com, such as this mini-lathe buying guide.
One of the brands missing from their comparison is the Sherline Mini Lathes:
https://www.sherline.com/product-category/lathes/manually-controlled-lathes/
In the $700 to $1500 range for manual ones.

They're light duty, made in the USA, but well-built and accurate. I have one of their CNC mini mills and I've used it for lots of aluminum parts.
 
Funny this thread appeared. I've been geeking out at lathes for the last few days. Actually I've wanted one since I was 13 and got the Dave Gingery machine shop series of books through Lindsey Publications (may the rest in peace 😢) by way of money order and bicycle. Anyway that was 30 or so years ago. I've been checking out the 12x28 lathe by Preecision Matthew's https://www.precisionmatthews.com/shop/pm-1228vf-lb/
and some gunsmithing type lathes. I'd like to keep it under $3000 though so maybe I'm in a pipe dream unless I can find an old used one that needs lots of electrical fixed. I can do that. Same with 3 phase, VFD's are pure blessed magic!
Ken
 
I own a grizzly 9x19 lathe and have used it for nearly 20 years. I can do some pretty precise work with it and have made some upgrades for it. I’ve used it so much the motor went out which I just replaced last year.

For the money it’s a pretty nice machine. It does have a small spindle bore which I wish was bigger but I have machines some pretty big stuff with the 3 jaw chuck.

For the money, this looks to be a pretty good value and on sale now. One thing you might consider is upgrading to an Aloris style quick change tool post to swap out tooling quickly and easily.

https://www.grizzly.com/products/grizzly-11-x-26-bench-lathe-with-gearbox/g9972z
An excellent website to buy hobbiest tooling and accessories is:

https://littlemachineshop.com/
An excellent resource to learn how to run your lathe is this guy:



I’m old enough that they offered these kinds of skills in HS shop but those days are lost to the ages. I love his approach and he has a passion for teaching. I taught myself to single point thread by watching his videos

Good luck. Learning to run a manual lathe is a life skill you won’t regret.
 
I picked up a used 12" Craftsman lathe that was a later model. Atlas made the lathe which Sears sold as a Craftsman. So far it's done pretty much what I wanted a lathe for. And the price was right, a friend gave it to me. It used to belong to his Dad I when his Dad died they decided to sell the farm, so my friend took the lathe apart and took it home. For years when I would visit him we would usually go to his workshop in the basement to see what he was working on. And for years it sat there still not assembled. So one day I suggested he give it to me, I'd put it back together, and when he wanted to use it he could drive to my place & use it.

Here's a link with lots of good pics about the later made Craftsman 12" Lathe.

http://www.lathes.co.uk/craftsman/page4.html
 
I am considering adding a metal lathe to my shop. As it will primarily be a hobby tool (for now), I do not want to spend a fortune. But I also do not want to spend good money on a piece of junk. i.e. Buy cheap, buy twice.

Experience? I get the concepts, but have never actually used a lathe (wood or metal). I do have lots of experience with other types of tools/trades incl woodworking, electrical, plumbing, auto repair, electronics repair, etc. I.e. I'm not that guy who owns one small tool box that I use to hang pictures.

Uses? It will primarily be used in research motor making. But I'm an avid DIYer so I can see where it could come in handy for other purposes. Like my brake rotors that currently need flattening.

@prfesser - I saw that you made a Gingery lathe. That project very much appeals to me, but the reality is that I have so many projects going that it'll never get done. Maybe when I'm retired.

Let's hear it! What advice do you have?

If you are going to use snap ring closure, the steady rest location will size the length of the bed and the steady rest maximum diameter will size the swing. Better to use bolts to secure the nozzle and bulkhead and buy a shorter and smaller lathe.

I have a now 25 year old Emco Maier Super 11 (6” x 26”) thst is more than sufficient for up to 6” nozzles and bulkheads.

I have bigger pieces machined by one of the online services which—even given my typically small order quantity—are far lower cost than outfitting a full up machine shop for an occasional few parts. If I was starting today I’d think hard about whether I need as high end a lathe as I own because machining is now available as a service at lower cost than I can make most parts.

I’d recommend against machining graphite—I found a shop that specializes in that work—because it is a health threat (lungs) and a threat to your lathe (electrical).

A jig for bolt hole placement on the motor tube is a big (custom) help, btw.

I make far more use of my mill (an Emco Maier FB2) than of the lathe, FWIW.

Bill
 
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