Aerotech Propellant Types

Okay, someone please edumacate me: Cesaroni has Skidmark motors, so what is the Aerotech "equivalent"? Is it Dark Matter, Metalstorm, are Dark Matter and Metalstorm the same thing, or is reality somewhere else entirely. I've seen videos of the Dark Matter drag race at LDRS31, and I want to know if Aerotech will continue making motors like those--especially if Aerotech starts making bigger ones :cool2:.

Dark matter is Aerotech's skidmark (sparks, dark smoke, etc), while Metalstorm is a bit different. Metalstorm has a large white flame, white smoke, and sparks. Here's a video of a J340 Metalstorm to give you an idea:

[youtube]LXVi-lEbJBo[/youtube]

So, does Aerotech make both propellant types still? I didn't see the propellant types on the website.

I think so, yes. Sometimes Aerotech's website is a bit out of date - you're better off looking at the certified motor list and vendor websites instead.

DM is relatively new and both are still in production. But you cant beat the classic AMW Skidmark. The CTI skids are pretty close, some are spot on while some seem just a bit wimpy. What I look for in a classic skid is more noise then smoke and fire. I burned an AMW L1400 last weekend at Freedom Launch. Words cannot describe it....

Hmm. I guess I'm more of a visual guy. I love bass & noise, but not if there isn't a thick black smoke plume wrapped in burning titanium or whatnot. Plus, I just like the really big motors (M & N). Not that I can fly them, I just like them. Seeing that 12,000 N-s rating on a motor is way cool to me.

Dark matter seems to have many more, tiny sparks, making for very spectacular photos.

Metalstorm is more like the old Rocketflite Silver Streaks.
Metalstorm: [YOUTUBE]4CpawdmH6EE[/YOUTUBE]
Silver Streak: [YOUTUBE]sIEKCBRKyZ4[/YOUTUBE]
The newer Dark Matter propellant is more like Skidmark, Firestarter, Spitfire, Yellow Jacket, Etc.

jimzcatz said:

I burned an AMW L1400 last weekend at Freedom Launch. Words cannot describe it....

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Video can :tongue:[YOUTUBE]OEoct51ZpnM[/YOUTUBE]

Does AMW still make those motors? I've seen an M2200SK on their website, but unless I'm just an idiot (strong possibility of that), I didn't see the motor you used in the video. Also, does anyone make home-made sparky motors? I wouldn't be able to fly research motors, but I'm intrigued by the possibility.

jimzcatz said:

DM is relatively new and both are still in production. But you cant beat the classic AMW Skidmark.

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I'm inclined to agree with this. Dark matter is the closest I've seen in currently available motors (though, admittedly, there's not a whole lot of Gorilla or Loki around where I am, so I'm mostly just comparing AMW Skid to CTI skid to AT DM), but classic AMW skids (especially the BIG ones) are something else to behold.



As for the M2200, that's a wonderful motor. I'd definitely love to fly one someday - I can still remember the first time I ever saw a skidmark (it was an M2200), and the impression it made on me.

The big Dark Matter loads are pretty impressive.

75mm L: https://www.flickr.com/photos/78604807@N00/6380766159/in/set-72157628091979761

98mm M: https://www.flickr.com/photos/78604807@N00/6380834933/in/set-72157628091979761/

But I agree that it's pretty hard to be AMW's classic Skidmark.
M2200: https://www.flickr.com/photos/78604807@N00/4572145460/in/set-72157624201986031

cjl said:

I'm inclined to agree with this. Dark matter is the closest I've seen in currently available motors (though, admittedly, there's not a whole lot of Gorilla or Loki around where I am, so I'm mostly just comparing AMW Skid to CTI skid to AT DM), but classic AMW skids (especially the BIG ones) are something else to behold.



As for the M2200, that's a wonderful motor. I'd definitely love to fly one someday - I can still remember the first time I ever saw a skidmark (it was an M2200), and the impression it made on me.

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PLEASE bring that thing to Kansas next year. I'll even go get it for ya :wink:


Gorilla Black Lightning motors are my favorite currently available sparky.
[youtube]IPn_j8WZ6U8[/youtube]

Closely followed by Loki's spitfire. But like a lot of people, I just don't think you can beat the classic AMW skidmark.

https://www.libertylaunchsystems.com/apps/wpisa.dll/LLS/PhotoShop/ViewLargeSize?AirFest18-144901~http%3A%2F%2Fimages.rocketsmagazine.com%2FLibrary1%2FAirFest18%2F2012-09-02-Sunday%2FNeilMcGilvray%2FD300%2F800Thumbs%2F_LLS7314.jpg


Blue Sparky is cool too. Thanks for that shot Neil! :wink:

Braden

GA: The founder and original owner of Animal Motor Works, Paul Robinson, passed away a couple of years ago, not long after his company was purchased by CTI. Paul's original Skidmark motors are regarded as the "gold standard" for dark, sparky motors. (Many other motors that he made were also very highly regarded.) The current iteration of the company still makes Skidmark motors, and while they are also quite popular, some true sparky motor aficionados regard them as not quite as intense as the originals.

There is no patent on the concept of adding titanium sponge to a propellant formulation, so the other major players, including AeroTech, also make their own dark sparky motors. AeroTech, in turn, is widely known for its hugely popular White Lightning propellant, which is very intense and dramatic in its own right. It was probably a natural development then that they would leverage the popularity and renown of WL for their first sparky propellant. AT's Metalstorm propellant is essentially White Lightning with titanium sponge added into it. I happen to like the effect myself. AeroTech has recently added a "dark" sparky propellant, Metalstorm Dark Matter.

AeroTech's most recent catalog, available as a PDF download from their site, is from 2009-2010, and it does not include a few of their new propellants, including their sparkies, as well as several other new products like their RAS motor adapters. I imagine that we will see a new version of the catalog released before too long. (At least I hope so.)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MOQA7W_Iovc

Still the best

Does it bother anyone that these sort of put a toe across the fireworks/rocketry line? I mean, if you can add Ti sponge for effect, and stick a motor in a spool or one of Art's n-sided saucers, or make a spin-stabilized saucer with horizontal thrusters just because the physics works, or build a replica of Nell, what's to prevent someone from building a rocket like Nell without the aft section and one side stabilizer and call it a rocket? I'm sure this has been beaten to death in the past, but it just strikes me as "over the line."

JordanT said:

I'm sure this has been beaten to death in the past, but it just strikes me as "over the line."

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It has, especially in the Tripoli email lists, but it basically boils down to the view points that "We don't need no stinking colors" and "I want more sparks lol". Its one of those things that never really goes away, but my silly little opinion is that if the FAA and BATFE don't care, and it appears at the moment that they do not, then I am fine with what the individual clubs are okay with.

Cyril's Scribe said:

It has, especially in the Tripoli email lists, but it basically boils down to the view points that "We don't need no stinking colors" and "I want more sparks lol". Its one of those things that never really goes away, but my silly little opinion is that if the FAA and BATFE don't care, and it appears at the moment that they do not, then I am fine with what the individual clubs are okay with.

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All good points.. infact theres some precedent with states to want to ball us up with fireworks anyway.

to the comment by JordanT, yes, it has been pounded to the ground... funny thing is I dont really like sparkies... but i have flown 2 of them. Just because i got a wild hair.. (which is good we have that ability.)

For crossing lines, NFPA is where the code stipulates the "not for display" thing. The government doesnt really care, to them its regulated or not regulated... NFPA defines how much "SPARKLE" you can get. this is through particle size limits, and its overal percentage in the composiiton.(i cant give actual numbers since i dont have a copy of 1125, but have been posted before on trf)

So, NFPA and the interpretations by the motor certifier are where that line is, and even though it "used" to bother me... i think it really should be left to "each to his own".

JordanT said:

Does it bother anyone that these sort of put a toe across the fireworks/rocketry line? I mean, if you can add Ti sponge for effect, and stick a motor in a spool or one of Art's n-sided saucers, or make a spin-stabilized saucer with horizontal thrusters just because the physics works, or build a replica of Nell, what's to prevent someone from building a rocket like Nell without the aft section and one side stabilizer and call it a rocket? I'm sure this has been beaten to death in the past, but it just strikes me as "over the line."

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ALL of the commercial motors that we use are "engineered" to create a certain experience, not just a performance profile. Do you think that White Lightning or Black Jack motor plumes look like that by accident? It's a hobby; we do this mostly for fun and manufacturers strive to make the products that we want. These motors would not be on the market if they were not popular. With that being said, making motors that throw out a shower of sparks is about as far down the "effects" path as any of us who are currently in the hobby are likely to want to go. Sparky motors have achieved general acceptance in the hobby, but not without a great deal of debate, which is still ongoing. You are not alone in having reservations about them. It is quite proper to ask such questions and to express such concerns.

Also, sparky motors aren't exactly new; the practice goes back awhile, as others have mentioned above. Paul Robinson's AMW Skidmarks weren't the first of this genre, just the best. Absolute state of the art.

UPscaler said:

PLEASE bring that thing to Kansas next year. I'll even go get it for ya :wink:

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I'm strongly considering it, and if I do, I may take you up on that offer. After the flight pictured above, I went to get it by myself, and I think I would have taken a few hours to get it back had the landowner not showed up and helped out (the kloudbusters landowner is awesome by the way).

Do sparkies do any extra damage to the rocket at the next pad over, compared to a normal one? Seems like a jerk thing to do, dumping sparks all over a friends freshly painted rocket.

I was actually more impressed by the sound of them at my first big launch than with the sparks. Whats the loudest aerotech in the 29mm range, white lightning or black jack?

Sparkytfl said:

Whats the loudest aerotech in the 29mm range, white lightning or black jack?

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White Lightning is definitely louder then Black Jack. Black Jacks dont seem to make to much noise. White lightning on the other hand...

Alex

Sparkytfl said:

Do sparkies do any extra damage to the rocket at the next pad over, compared to a normal one? Seems like a jerk thing to do, dumping sparks all over a friends freshly painted rocket.

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I've never seen any damage, and even surfaces exposed to an enormous amount of sparks have only required a bit of a wipedown to remove the soot (I'm specifically referring to the base and the inside of the tube fins of the rocket I posted pictures of above - and if being hit that directly from an N2801 Skidmark doesn't damage ordinary spray paint, I don't think there's much risk)

Aksrockets said:

White Lightning is definitely louder then Black Jack. Black Jacks dont seem to make to much noise. White lightning on the other hand...

Alex

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Thanks. I only manage to launch one or two each time, and thats once a month, so I cant remember them easily enough to compare. I just remember being disappointed in the blue, and the green was like "meh so its green and kinda fast, whatever". I couldnt find the red, but imagine its not much different than the green.

Sparkytfl said:

Thanks. I only manage to launch one or two each time, and thats once a month, so I cant remember them easily enough to compare. I just remember being disappointed in the blue, and the green was like "meh so its green and kinda fast, whatever". I couldnt find the red, but imagine its not much different than the green.

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Actually, aerotech redlines are awesome in any size! Unlike the green, It really is red! The G77R was the first Mpr motor I flew and is still a personal favorite when it comes to SU G motors.
I DO agree with you on the AT blues. I'm not a huge fan of blue thunder it has hardly any flame and smoke. CTI's blue streaks are much better Imho.

Alex

Aksrockets said:

Actually, aerotech redlines are awesome in any size! Unlike the green, It really is red!
Alex

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I can vouch for that, I have flown numerous Aerotech Redlines in my strech Loc Precision Bullet (many repairs) and they are wonderfully red, as you move up the engine scale the red starts to turn more pink/white, the G, H, I range is where it is at. I just flew the Aerotech I-600R this weekend and it was amazing, the flame was almost as long as the rocket and it was really red!

The green and blue are really nice in larger motors. I've never been terribly impressed with the small ones, but the green gets really nice starting around I or J size, and the blue is nice from about K on up. For smaller blues though, CTI is much better - a CTI G or H blue has a much better flame than an equivalent aerotech. I'll also agree that the reds are great in all sizes - everything from G to N, the redline is awesome.

The two I600's I've seen both produced really quiet "wooshes" compared to similar-sized motors. Is that typical? What about the J420?

CarVac said:

The two I600's I've seen both produced really quiet "wooshes" compared to similar-sized motors. Is that typical? What about the J420?

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I found that it was very loud and long crack, though I haven't seen a J420 recently. Here is a link to the video we shot at MMMSC of an I600R, which does have decent sound.

[video=youtube;w1EjL7BWu58]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w1EjL7BWu58[/video]