Rocketry terms yesterday and today

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prfesser

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This will be a bit long, so if ya gotta pee or get a drink, go now.

I spent more years than I like to think, trying to teach students (who often didn’t want to learn) that chemistry terms are quite definite and precise. Theory, substance, acid, formula: all have very specific meanings in science. In fact, I use "formulation" rather than "formula" when speaking of APCP because of that specific meaning.

And when they’re used incorrectly it can cause more than just minor misunderstanding. Consider the HUGE debates and even legal issues that have arisen when “it’s just a theory” is used as though it means “something you came up with last night while drunk”.

Which brings me to the rocketry connection. In years gone by we’ve referred to the thingadoos that we shove up the nozzle as “igniters”. A motor you made yourself was “experimental”. Fine…except that those terms mean one thing to us, and something rather different to BATFE and FAA.

An igniter is a regulated item, no ifs, ands, or buts. A motor starter...that’s kind of a gray area at the moment. But I’d bet good money that BATFE is somewhat sick-n-tired of dealing with rocket folk who have a tiny box of these items (or ematches) in a large storage space that's been built to withstand a small nuclear weapon. And if we, the rocket community, begin to insist that the devices we use are NOT igniters but are solely for the purpose of starting rocket motors—hence the name—perhaps we’ll need to worry less about the constant argument of ‘is this legal?’ The point is especially important when one considers that many of these devices are used to start APCP motors—which are SPECIFICALLY exempted from BATFE regulation. (If the motor is unregulated, and the motor starter uses a type of APCP, then is the whole thing unregulated?)

By the same token, the FAA gets a shiver down its collective back when it hears “experimental”, because in FAA-speak that means something entirely different from a homemade motor. That is why we switched to “Research”.

Point being: these names have been changed to protect the innocent, namely us rocket folk. Please, try to get in the habit of using them. It’s a little awkward at first, I know. But maybe it will give us some legal benefits in the future. Certainly it can’t hurt.

Happy New Year to all,
Terry
PS: How about "ejection charge initiators"? Maybe they're unregulated... :)
 
PS: How about "ejection charge initiators"? Maybe they're unregulated... :)

Air bag deployment is caused by "air bag initiators" so why not? Or even, "Deployment initiators" or "Recovery initiators"?
 
Why do they need to be referred to at all? Just say you flew the rocket with all the required accouterments.
 
In years gone by we’ve referred to the thingadoos that we shove up the nozzle as “igniters”. A motor you made yourself was “experimental”. Fine…except that those terms mean one thing to us, and something rather different to BATFE and FAA.
An igniter is a regulated item, no ifs, ands, or buts. A motor starter...that’s kind of a gray area at the moment.
Point being: these names have been changed to protect the innocent, namely us rocket folk.

We can call our "stuff" whatever we want, but in the end the AFT will translate it to their own language. In the end: doesn't matter what we call it.
As long as we use our "stuff" responsibly we shouldn't have much to worry about.
 
We can call our "stuff" whatever we want, but in the end the AFT will translate it to their own language. In the end: doesn't matter what we call it.
As long as we use our "stuff" responsibly we shouldn't have much to worry about.
Agree on responsible use, disagree on terms not mattering. Time after time we see news, the courts, and social media crucify people by picking the worst phrasing on record and running with it. Why give them any ammo?
 
Agree on responsible use, disagree on terms not mattering. Time after time we see news, the courts, and social media crucify people by picking the worst phrasing on record and running with it. Why give them any ammo?

Kind of like Assault Weapon/Rifle....appearances/usages are very important.
 
We can call our "stuff" whatever we want, but in the end the AFT will translate it to their own language. In the end: doesn't matter what we call it.
As long as we use our "stuff" responsibly we shouldn't have much to worry about.

Well, it’s unfortunately not that simple. You should listen to the prfesser; he was the Tripoli President during much of the time of the lawsuit and I’m reasonably certain he has had more meetings with ATF than you have.
Two things matter here: perception and reality. What we call something matters because it catches their attention. That puts them in a bind. They then have to check to see if it functions as an explosive or if it contains an explosive. It’s much better to stay completely under their radar.
 
Well, it’s unfortunately not that simple. You should listen to the prfesser; he was the Tripoli President during much of the time of the lawsuit and I’m reasonably certain he has had more meetings with ATF than you have.
Two things matter here: perception and reality. What we call something matters because it catches their attention. That puts them in a bind. They then have to check to see if it functions as an explosive or if it contains an explosive. It’s much better to stay completely under their radar.

I am!! Nothing wrong with having a false sense of security by calling some of our "stuff" a more benign name. Just say'in no matter what we call them it isn't going to make a difference to an ATF agent. They will check function and content no matter what you call it. If it looks like a duck........................
 
I am!! Nothing wrong with having a false sense of security by calling some of our "stuff" a more benign name. Just say'in no matter what we call them it isn't going to make a difference to an ATF agent. They will check function and content no matter what you call it. If it looks like a duck........................
It's not the inspecting agent we need to influence. It's the ones higher up who make the rules.
 
I am!! Nothing wrong with having a false sense of security by calling some of our "stuff" a more benign name. Just say'in no matter what we call them it isn't going to make a difference to an ATF agent. They will check function and content no matter what you call it. If it looks like a duck........................

Actually, and it is somewhat weird, to the Government the terminology is critical. The slight change in terminology does make a difference.
I had a co-worker that lived in a neighborhood that was prone to flooding. They wanted to build a 6' dike to protect their property. This was denied.
They then requested to build an elevated walkway. In the plans they submitted they stated they were going to build it 6' high. This was approved.
The difference was the terminology - Flood control dike vs elevated walkway.

Also at work, related to the ITAR discussion in another thread here on TRF, WHAT you call an item can make all the difference in whether it becomes an ITAR item or not.
The laws are often written based on certain terminology (that is often not well defined). If you match the terminology the law applies, if you do not then the law will not apply.

It seems strange but it is how a lot of things works..........
 
Good luck influencing either one of them.

Actually we have a meeting annually with the higher level assistant directors of ATF. They are very open to these discussions. They’re limited by the wording of the law which specifically calls out “igniters“ without a clear definition of what that is.
 
So what do we call these things then? My vote is and always will be doohickeys. Thingamabobs comes in at a close second. Imagine a government published manual with either word listed, makes me smile.
 
I am!! Nothing wrong with having a false sense of security by calling some of our "stuff" a more benign name. Just say'in no matter what we call them it isn't going to make a difference to an ATF agent. They will check function and content no matter what you call it. If it looks like a duck........................

Actually, Ken Good was president for most of the lawsuit, though I was on the BoD for the majority of it. Ken wanted to stick it out until a decision was made one way or another. I cannot say enough good things about Ken Good.

I do remember attending one of the many hearings. The lawyer for BATFE... if she had any amount of critical thinking ability, she HAD to know that BATFE was attempting to blow smoke up the judge's...nose. They were relying on their discretionary authority---or whatever you call the expertise of the agency in question--- to carry the day. Didn't go over well with the Appellate court... <snicker>
 
Actually, Ken Good was president for most of the lawsuit, though I was on the BoD for the majority of it. Ken wanted to stick it out until a decision was made one way or another. I cannot say enough good things about Ken Good.

I do remember attending one of the many hearings. The lawyer for BATFE... if she had any amount of critical thinking ability, she HAD to know that BATFE was attempting to blow smoke up the judge's...nose. They were relying on their discretionary authority---or whatever you call the expertise of the agency in question--- to carry the day. Didn't go over well with the Appellate court... <snicker>

I agree; Ken is great! I wish our website had a list showing the terms and pictures of all the past presidents.
 
Can we get all spell-checking software to automatically replace the word ig... with starter?

No need to, since the start of model rocketry there were igniters. Until 2014 Estes supplied igniters, now starters. CTI still igniters, Aerotech has some initiators now but mostly igniters. Quest under the category has motors and igniters but under the motor description initiators. Look at the instructions for all. Initiator sounds worse than igniter to me.

I went 3/4 of the way through the process of obtaining a LEUP and storage, I know what it is like. Just happened that the lawsuit was resolved, and I dropped the permit process. I have a $300.00 custom made type 4 magazine sitting here not being used (to small). The last thing I would ever want especially for any one that has never had to go through it is to go back to the days before 2009. IMO using the I word isn't going to make a difference one way or another.
It will take a lot more than just us end users to rid the rocketry world of that nasty word.
 
I would be a fan of calling ignitors "motivators." My friends and I sometimes use this term to refer to a BFH...as in "I'm about to motivate you to move."
 
No need to, since the start of model rocketry there were igniters. Until 2014 Estes supplied igniters, now starters. CTI still igniters, Aerotech has some initiators now but mostly igniters. Quest under the category has motors and igniters but under the motor description initiators. Look at the instructions for all. Initiator sounds worse than igniter to me.

I went 3/4 of the way through the process of obtaining a LEUP and storage, I know what it is like. Just happened that the lawsuit was resolved, and I dropped the permit process. I have a $300.00 custom made type 4 magazine sitting here not being used (to small). The last thing I would ever want especially for any one that has never had to go through it is to go back to the days before 2009. IMO using the I word isn't going to make a difference one way or another.
It will take a lot more than just us end users to rid the rocketry world of that nasty word.

My understanding is that Aerotech is getting rid of the word also.
 
Common use in spacecraft development has three levels of these things. Initiator is the device that does the conversion from electrical impulse to thermal impulse. NASA uses a standard initiator for all sorts of pyrotechnic events, the NSI (NASA Standard Initiator), or “neh-SEE). Ignitor often is a small motor with a large-bore nozzle, designed to go with a particular main propellent.

I like referring to my electrical devices as initiators.
 
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