Wither Estes Pro Series II builder kits?

So I took a look at the Estes website to see if there was the slightest possibility any new builder kits for PSII were in the pipeline. Up until yesterday, the "Sahara" was still available... but now no longer. A pity that no builder kits are around at the moment. I loved the simplicity and quality of them and was hooked the second I found a Ventris in a local hobby store. I picked up the Sahara because of the price point being just too good to pass up... good enough for me to pick up a second one. I really hope they produce a few more of these because they WERE easy to assemble... all you needed was patience.

Here is to hoping that good things are coming... it's already happening with the new Saturn and Interceptor.

Although the kits were much-loved, I've never been convinced that they sell in the kinds of volumes that Estes needs to make it worth their while. Other factors (reportedly) included difficulty in sourcing satisfactory plywood for the fins, and also the heavier PS2 kits require composite motors that Estes does not manufacture. And Estes, as far as I understand, makes its money selling motors.

Note that the currently available PS2 kits (a) do not use plywood, and (b) fly well on 29mm BP motors.

Maybe you saw this reply over in the What Kits Should Estes Bring Back thread?

JumpJet said:

If you guys really want to see the Pro Series Builder kits come back I would suggest you FLOOD the Estes Face Book Page with such comments.
John Boren

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If the constraints are as neil_w suggests, and if we really want Estes to refresh the PSII line, maybe we pitch them a few designs?

Better yet, somebody with a FB account could "flood" them with suggestions that they sponsor a design contest:

A builder's kit with no plywood parts that flies safely on 24 or 29mm BP.

I was told Estes got out of the PS line because they didn't want to make kits that didn't fly on their own motors. The Pro Series composites were just rebranded Aerotech Single Use motors

FWIW the Sahara and Panavia will certainly fly on an F15... Since they were a bit smaller than the argent and partizon. But if you're and old timer like me, you'll remember that the Gemini Titan and Thor Agena B were also (effectively) builder kits too... But they required some real skill to build. But for a while at least, the PS II line was, shall we say, a bit more "adult". Losing the builder kits just bums me out a bit...

neil_w said:

Although the kits were much-loved, I've never been convinced that they sell in the kinds of volumes that Estes needs to make it worth their while. Other factors (reportedly) included difficulty in sourcing satisfactory plywood for the fins, and also the heavier PS2 kits require composite motors that Estes does not manufacture. And Estes, as far as I understand, makes its money selling motors.

Note that the currently available PS2 kits (a) do not use plywood, and (b) fly well on 29mm BP motors.

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It'd help if the Estes BP F's had a bit more punch to them so an Argent or Panavia could fly on one....

DeltaVee said:

It'd help if the Estes BP F's had a bit more punch to them so an Argent or Panavia could fly on one....

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Estes could open up a lot more possibilities if they could develop a core-burning 29 mm F motor.

The current Star Orbiter and Super Big Bertha are a start. If Estes has no plans on building or buying composite motors then larger rockets using standard Estes-type parts with 29mm motor mounts but light enough for 24mm motors is probably what we’ll get. Right now my New Year’s wish is a PSII Mega Fat Boy using BT-101 tubes.

Hmmmmm.....Mega Fat Boy. That would be fun.

I expect to be flying my Super Big Bertha at the club launch tomorrow. It turns in such lovely flights on both the E16-6 and F15-6. I need a bigger site to do the Star Orbiter justice.

That said, I've built and flown and enjoyed most of the PSII builder's kits (first the Ventris, then the Leviathan for my Level 1, Mega Der Red Max, Panavia) and I've bashed a Partizon into a 256% upscale Nova Payloader. I have a couple of Argents, a couple of Partizons, a Panavia and a Leviathan in the kit stash, too.

It's too bad they are gone.

IMHO: Star Orbiter == "fire and forget"... not unlike the Estes Delta Clipper, two stage, D12 powered, nearly minimum diameter.

You can still buy PSII parts - tubes, nose cones, couplers and transitions - on the Estes website. Some of them are gone (the 3 inch Leviathan PNC, for example), but there are some good tubes there to be had. I picked up a few, first to make various different upper sections for a Panavia (well, I guess that makes it an Argent or Partigent or something), and then I got some more with the intent of using the parts for scratch projects.

You won't find centering rings or fin stock on there, but those can be cut from scratch if you have the tools - or a friend with the tools. My club has started holding meetings at a makerspace, so I hope to learn how to use a laser cutter in the near future.

lcorinth said:

You can still buy PSII parts - tubes, nose cones, couplers and transitions - on the Estes website. Some of them are gone (the 3 inch Leviathan PNC, for example), but there are some good tubes there to be had. I picked up a few, first to make various different upper sections for a Panavia (well, I guess that makes it an Argent or Partigent or something), and then I got some more with the intent of using the parts for scratch projects.

You won't find centering rings or fin stock on there, but those can be cut from scratch if you have the tools - or a friend with the tools. My club has started holding meetings at a makerspace, so I hope to learn how to use a laser cutter in the near future.

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Leviathan and Scion can be easily cloned with a T300 airframe tube from Balsa Machining Service, and the nosecone from a Estes Big Daddy. BMS alsosell centering rings for 3" to 29mm.

jlabrasca said:

Maybe you saw this reply over in the What Kits Should Estes Bring Back thread?

If you guys really want to see the Pro Series Builder kits come back I would suggest you FLOOD the Estes Face Book Page with such comments.
John Boren

Click to expand...

My sarcasm detector is pinging

Estes is mailing me a Sahara as a warranty replacement for a Maxi Alpa 3 damaged in an E12 cato. It’s probably just temporarily out of stock and will be back. Or maybe I got the last one!

When I got my first PSII kits, it was super exciting, because
I had only ever flown small Estes rockets, and it was clear that these were a next-level step in rocketry — more robust materials, bigger size, composite motors, etc. It was my introduction to MPR, and it drove me to join rocketry clubs, because these bigger rockets were too much for the local schoolyard. So the PSII kits really propelled me into my adult involvement with rocketry, and without them, I probably would have given up rocketry again as soon as my nephew lost interest in flying small rockets after school.

With that said though, I’ve come to realize that there are lots of sources for similar rockets, and they aren’t really all that unique. If you are already into MPR, you’ll find plenty to keep you busy.

So to me, the main loss is that there won’t be that introduction to MPR by Estes. There’s less likelihood that a person will take the same path to MPR and club rocketry that I did. So many people start into rocketry with Estes that having those MPR kits on the Estes website, in their catalogs, and in hobby stores made the transition to MPR more likely to happen.

ThirstyBarbarian said:

Estes is mailing me a Sahara as a warranty replacement for a Maxi Alpa 3 damaged in an E12 cato. It’s probably just temporarily out of stock and will be back. Or maybe I got the last one!

When I got my first PSII kits, it was super exciting, because
I had only ever flown small Estes rockets, and it was clear that these were a next-level step in rocketry — more robust materials, bigger size, composite motors, etc. It was my introduction to MPR, and it drove me to join rocketry clubs, because these bigger rockets were too much for the local schoolyard. So the PSII kits really propelled me into my adult involvement with rocketry, and without them, I probably would have given up rocketry again as soon as my nephew lost interest in flying small rockets after school.

With that said though, I’ve come to realize that there are lots of sources for similar rockets, and they aren’t really all that unique. If you are already into MPR, you’ll find plenty to keep you busy.

So to me, the main loss is that there won’t be that introduction to MPR by Estes. There’s less likelihood that a person will take the same path to MPR and club rocketry that I did. So many people start into rocketry with Estes that having those MPR kits on the Estes website, in their catalogs, and in hobby stores made the transition to MPR more likely to happen.

Click to expand...

What was particularly nice about the Sahara and Panavia was the price. The Ventris I got was after discontinuation, but it was at list n the hobby store and it was twice as much. I know Estes was dumping the parts and all, but I would hazard a guess that these kits (Sahara and Panavia) might be profitable if at 50% higher price... Which puts them way cheaper than the original PS II builder kits and just about any other similar vendor kit afaict.... Maybe... Maybe not... And free shipping the boot!

DeltaVee said:

What was particularly nice about the Sahara and Panavia was the price. The Ventris I got was after discontinuation, but it was at list n the hobby store and it was twice as much. I know Estes was dumping the parts and all, but I would hazard a guess that these kits (Sahara and Panavia) might be profitable if at 50% higher price... Which puts them way cheaper than the original PS II builder kits and just about any other similar vendor kit afaict.... Maybe... Maybe not... And free shipping the boot!

Click to expand...

These parts elimination kits were really affordable that's for sure. The original price for the PSII kits was not really that great. Weren't they closer to 60 or 70 bucks? I mentioned I got my Sahara as a warranty replacement for an OOP kit -- well, I also got my very first PSII kit as a warranty replacement for an OOP Executioner with faulty fins. I was really impressed with the size of it, and the fact that I got it free was great! Honestly, at that point in my rocketry career, I probably would not have bought it at list price.

My Sahara came last week. I’m not in a huge hurry to build it as I have some rockets in that size and motor class right now, but it will make a good replacement if I need one someday.