Do vendors actually check credentials before selling motors?

If you have a decent point of sale software and its properly setup, who bought what and how many motors is automatically documented, then it just becomes a matter of NAR/TRA membership and cert check, and if the individual is using a credit card, the ID check should go with it.

Well, "do they actually" is not the same things as what they should do.

DavidMcCann said:

The idea we even need to consider paying for safety regs is insane. The entire NFPA is stupid.

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A bit of a broad brush, I think? The NFPA as an organization develops consensus standards through committees of users, AHJs, manufacturers, and experts. They fund their operations by selling the codes. The fact that so many AHJs adopt their codes speaks to their professionalism, and for the most part it’s a plus for us, or we’d be subject to whatever whims a local AHJ may apply. And without consensus codes, we wouldn’t have a voice (many voices, actually) on the committee establishing the rules.

the really crazy nfpa thing is that my state doesn't adopt the entire, up-to-date NFPA code, but has separate legislation for each code. The result? We're on NFPA 1995 revision and it's not gonna change, with only 1 active club in the state and the state fire marshal more interested in keeping building codes up to date. Guess in some ways that works out for the better for us...off the radar

delete

Bat-mite said:

I have bought HPR motors from more than one dealer at a launch site that did not ask me for anything other than a credit card. Legal? I have no idea. standard practice? Probably.

When they are getting online or phone orders while at home, it is a lot easier to think clearly about things like that. However, at a launch, especially a big launch like an LDRS or a Red Glare, when 20 people an hour are walking through your trailer pulling motors, and you have a check-out line going out the door, maybe it is a little more challenging.

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At most major launches there is a name tag with cert on at that has been given by the club. Local launches usually involve known people. My site asks for the info for my records during checkout as well.

Ted Cochran said:

A bit of a broad brush, I think? .

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I think what DavidMcCann is getting at is that NFPA isn't "wrong" as much as having to follow a law that you have to pay to read. Do any states that follow the NFPA laws have them posted publically so you can read if necessary?

djs said:

I think what DavidMcCann is getting at is that NFPA isn't "wrong" as much as having to follow a law that you have to pay to read. Do any states that follow the NFPA laws have them posted publically so you can read if necessary?

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But you don’t have to pay to read it. All NFPA codes have free online access. You only have to pay to own a copy, either printed or pdf.

heada said:

Or you live in a state that has not adopted NFPA 1125/1127 and explicitly calls them out as unenforceable like Indiana.

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As an Indiana resident, this interests me. Could you elaborate on how Indiana has called them out as unenforceable? And is there a state level substitute?

Marc_G said:

As an Indiana resident, this interests me. Could you elaborate on how Indiana has called them out as unenforceable? And is there a state level substitute?

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I'm also living in Indiana and 3 seconds of a Google search (indiana code nfpa 1127 were the search terms) comes up with a PDF as the second link.

https://www.in.gov/legislative/iac/T06750/A00280.PDF?&iacv=iac2010

That PDF includes the following text:

675 IAC 28-1-39 NFPA 1123; code for fireworks display Authority: IC 22-13-2-2; IC 22-13-2-13 Affected: IC 10-19-2; IC 22-11-14-2; IC 22-12; IC 22-13; IC 22-14; IC 22-15; IC 36-7 Sec. 39. (a) That certain standard, being titled as NFPA 1123, Code for Fireworks Display, 2006 Edition, published by the National Fire Protection Association, 1 Batterymarch Park, Quincy, Massachusetts 02269, be and the same is hereby adopted by reference, as if fully set out in this section except as revised hereafter. (b) The following documents referenced in NFPA 1123 are not adopted, are not enforceable, and are for information purposes only: (1) NFPA 160. (2) NFPA 306. (3) NFPA 1122. (4) NFPA 1124. (5) NFPA 1127. (6) Title 16, Code of Federal Regulations. (7) Title 27, Code of Federal Regulations. (8) Title 49, Code of Federal Regulations. (9) API Standard 87-1

I've highlighted the key text.

While this code doesn't have force of law in Indiana, if you fly with a club which I believe over 99% of HPR fliers do in Indiana, those clubs are either NAR, TRA or both and thus subject to the safety rules regardless. I would encourage you and anyone else to research the codes that are valid in your location.

Ted Cochran said:

A bit of a broad brush, I think? The NFPA as an organization develops consensus standards through committees of users, AHJs, manufacturers, and experts. They fund their operations by selling the codes. The fact that so many AHJs adopt their codes speaks to their professionalism, and for the most part it’s a plus for us, or we’d be subject to whatever whims a local AHJ may apply. And without consensus codes, we wouldn’t have a voice (many voices, actually) on the committee establishing the rules.

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No, my problem is that’s a terrible way to run a government, and I disagree with that setup.

Steve Shannon said:

But you don’t have to pay to read it. All NFPA codes have free online access. You only have to pay to own a copy, either printed or pdf.

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Having to provide an email address does not mean free.

DavidMcCann said:

No, my problem is that’s a terrible way to run a government, and I disagree with that setup.

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Lobby your state to either place the entire copy in law so that it is no longer covered by copyright or to reject them and place their own codes in law. (I agree, nothing that has force of law should require anything more than a visit to a public library to review)

I have never NOT been asked for my cred's or if I have not, its because I always preface my email or communications with my TRA number. I have bought from Wildmans, Als Hobby's (when they sold HP), private sales. Always requested my TRA number or my card/photograph of card.

I think also that we are a tight knit group and dealers know who people are and know of people as well so they know, more or less, who they are selling to from the onset of the sale.

If someone were to ask me "Do you feel the TRA/NAR supporting vendors are doing their due diligence regarding following law and procedure?" I would respond with "Yes, I do believe that they are following to the best of their abilities." I don't believe any of them would put their business or others safety in jeopardy.

I've always asked what cert level someone is when buying a motor..
If through the mail I ask for a pdf of the NAR or Tripoli card for my records..
I have on occasion been given a hard time for asking..
I took this to mean that not all ask..
But I believe the times that the cert question isn't asked
it's because the customer is already known to the vendor..

Teddy

Correction,,
Not so much a hard time for asking
but for asking for a pdf through email for my records..

Hey Teddy:
https://www.nar.org/high-power-rocketry-info/hpr-cert-search/
https://www.tripoli.org/Portals/1/Exports/CertPickup/Certified_Members_List.txt

it's a lot more easier........and no messy paper.....