Grumblings of a curmudgeon....

[Aero B]

I am new here and have spent quite a lot of time searching for answers. Some of the time what you guys think of as common knowledge is new to us and in a lot of threads you guys use abbreviations for these(common things) and I am unable to figure out what you are talking about.
I still have yet to fully understand what is required to be level one or two and why it is even necessary.
I have been on a few forums and this one seems to have a lot of knowledge on hand but it is hard to extract it,the threads seem to go off on tangents unrelated to the original post.

I belong to a few different forums too. I enjoy all of them.

Welcome aboard, burnout!

 

[burnout]

First, welcome to TRF!

Second, did you start here, right on the front page of the Forum?

https://www.rocketryforum.com/forumdisplay.php?41-Beginners-amp-Educational-Programs

And this subsection: https://www.rocketryforum.com/showthread.php?936-Beginning-Model-Rocketry-FAQ-s

The FAQ section is probably where you need to start...even includes things like acronym definitions.

FC

Thanks for the links.I have been there but I easily get sidetracked and forgot about some of them.

 

[kelltym88]

I just bought an Estes Saturn V.....what color should I paint it ? I was thinking of calling it a V-2 or or maybe a Mean Machine ,but not sure if maybe the name Rokit would be better.I plan on using 54mm reloads ,should I go with a D12-5 or D12-0 ? I have access to 1515 rails ,but was wondering where to buy 3/16" rods ?Can i really use Cabbage leaves for wadding if all i have is Iceberg lettuce ?I like clouds shaped like bunnies.

Thanks for your input.

Paul t

Paul... behave.

 

[Bubba02STi]

...and change your underwear?

Commando buddy commando... su motors have put a damper on my underware budget

 

[cwbullet]

Commando buddy commando... su motors have put a damper on my underware budget

Please don't share.

 

[Bone Daddy]

Just two comments and then two answers to common questions.

1. The internet is age blind.
The questioner may be 8 years old or 75 years old.
The flip side is that the answerer may be 8 years old or 75 years old.

2. Not everyone on the board is an English first speaker.
I for one hope this explains the preponderance of poor spelling and grammar.

Now the two answers, which can made into the shortest stickies:

Question 1: How do you fill balsa fins?
Answer: You don't. Use basswood and a bit of primer and you're ready to go.

Question 2: What is the best paint to use or my painting sucks what am I doing wrong or etc.
Answer: Use Dupli-color lacquer. Seriously. If you are having problems with enamel try lacquer.
It sure worked for me and will for you also.

And yes, if you use lacquer on your underwear you do not have to change them as often. You can easily go from every 3 days to once every a week or so depending on the color you choose.

 

[dave carver]

I am new here and have spent quite a lot of time searching for answers. Some of the time what you guys think of as common knowledge is new to us and in a lot of threads you guys use abbreviations for these(common things) and I am unable to figure out what you are talking about.
I still have yet to fully understand what is required to be level one or two and why it is even necessary.
I have been on a few forums and this one seems to have a lot of knowledge on hand but it is hard to extract it,the threads seem to go off on tangents unrelated to the original post.

I agree there should be a "Wiki" for rocketry. The reason for abbrivations comes from lazyness How many times can you pound out Ammonia Perchlorate Composit Propellant before you succumb to the acronym APCP?

Part 2 is for first level. You fly and recover a rocket flown on an H or I class motor. It must be able to fly upon recovery. Some have taken Super Glue with them to get their rocket to repair any damage on their way back to get their certification sheet signed. Second level is take a test to see if you have knowledge of what you are doing. There are sample tests to use to learn from. Pass the test then a successful flight with a J, K, or L class motor. I very much dissagreed with the whole certification process when I first heard of it. I saw it as a way to appease any Gov. Agency that might have a problem. Well, there were problems anyway with a 10 YEAR Federal Court case by Tripoli and the NAR with various manufacturers joining in against the BATFE. They lost. The certification kinda orphaned L class motors, you hardly ever see one fly.

When I joined all you needed to do was fly any hi-power motor successfully to get your conformation. I flew an I284 AeroTech for my first flight in '93. Still have the rocket and the I284 remains my favorite motor...along with all the Blue Thunder motors

 

[closet astronaut]

No beatings in the schedule today. Yes, it is frustrating to see the same old questions and you have to wonder what some of the folks here are even attempting based on thier questions and obvious lack of experience. I can't say honestly that I take every inquiry seriously, but I do try to 'mentor' in some small way to encourage new blood and keep them from straying too far into deep waters just for safety's sake. A lot of times I just won't reply,especially if this is along the lines of "Where does the ignitor go?" There are a thousand nuances that make up our experience and some have not had the chance to experience or experiment with our hobby, beyond a random Christmas present Grandma thought would be "cool" because "Junior is soo smart, I'll bet he'll love this." I am not an expert by any means. I built 'real' rockets for a living and was always being teased about my 'toys', but there is real math, physics, design engineering and construction techniques required for success just like the big boys. LIke any hobby, there are 'checkbook' guys ot there that will just write a check for the biggest, best, or just plain most impressive in that hobby. Ready to fly radio control aircraft come to mind first and the perfect little brass locomotives all hand assembled in Asia second. Used to be most of the love of a hobby was the hours (or literally man-years) it took to create your dream as you envisioned it. Now it seems with all the labour saving devices we have, less time is available to develope the craftman-like approach and the market responds in kind to 'instant gratification' and provides the product right off the shelf-plug and play. This robs the background experience out of finding the rules that govern the performance or even inner workings of a lot of common things our parents or even grandparents could disassemble and fix if something broke. They 'understood' it. You see on a daily basis the erosion of skill sets required to survive and thrive in our previous agrarian society and the lack of those skills holds no penalty for an urbanite who will never need to know how to weld, build a house or fix an engine. The craftman that has retained or even gone to the extreme of preserving those abilities are a little like us. Hobby kinda guys who need to know how and why things work for thier own satisfaction and success. If you never had a role model to learn from, maybe you don't know how to research your own questions. Certainly the 'video' age has decimated reading skills to the point where a book is almost to be sneered at: "It's all on line anyway" mentality. We have becme a goal driven society where the objective is defined and expected to be achieved quickly, whereas our parents or grandparents age has a pride of workmanship and if you look at some of the antiques ( example-Sterling Tea sets) you realize you literally could not afford to use someone with that level of skill to make something you could sell for a profit. How many fathers have taken to time to build 'anything' with a son or daughter? Could be they had no need to learn that skill or found any enjoyment themselves with it and there is nothing to pass down. We ARE the 'keepers of the flame' and so with our knowledge gained thru sheer dint of patience and (usually) at considerable cost-we need to pass our skills onto the new generations coming up. My father was a SAC pilot and Squadron leader, but built museum quality ship models to exact scale from scratch. I treasure his leavings and am going to build similar items specifically to leave to my boys. You may have been lucky to have parent swho had hobbies, but chances are now the younger generation is coming from a set of parents where both have to work and either have had little disposable income or complete lack of time to 'waste' on a hobby. We have become the surrogates for those just coming into our world with little preparation or know how. Just take a deep breath-pick and choose you beneficiary and if you can-remember the rush, the tingling, the absolute thrill it sent thru your soul-when you first pushed the button and your very own space program lifted off the pad. We owe them that thrill-to keep our eyes towards the stars and our hearts still capable of wonder.

This post is an absolute classic! Classy, alot of depth and so true in a number of way's.

BTW..In the Army we had five gallon buckets of cammo AND striped paint.

 

[luke strawwalker]

I'm sure I'll be ostracized for this, but here ya go anyway....

Why do people post questions in threads that have already been answered?????? READ the posts people!!!!

How can L1 & L2 flyers not know the basics?????? (CP/CG relationships, what reloads will fit in my case??, can I stuff a big motor in my estes kit, take it trans-sonic and expect it to survive???, etc) Engage brain before engaging mouth (or fingers in this case)!!!! Do a little research on your own, you might learn something!!

OK, I'll shut up and take whatever beating is coming to me.....

y'all have fun
Terry

I hear ya...

For total newbs who've never flown a rocket, or only a handful of LPR kit rockets, or haven't flown a kit in decades, it's understandable and forgivable...

BUT, I've noticed some of the stuff you've mentioned coming from HPR guys, and that's rather troubling. Tells me that even though they might have passed the test and gotten the cert, they DON'T REALLY know what they're doing...

I've seen it before... just like a driver's license doesn't stop drunk drivers... I had to get a pesticide license when I was still farming row crops, and some of the stuff I've seen... I knew a guy sitting on the county committee, IN CHARGE of the licensing and oversight of the other farmers holding pesticide licenses, dump about 40 gallons of left-over cotton insecticide solution out of the sprayer he just drove back into the yard in, and dump it out on the concrete slab, which then ran off into the grass about twenty feet from his water well! He even had to chase the dog off to keep it from drinking the stuff off the slab! It's rediculous...

I like Dave Carver's comments as well... the signal/noise ratio has definitely dropped around here lately... LOL

Don't take it too seriously-- it is just a rocket chat forum after all... but agree that the basic questions from HPR guys that SHOULD know the answer IS troubling...

Later! OL JR

 

[luke strawwalker]

Yes, that can be annoying. Occasionally they may post before refreshing a page and don't see the existing answer, or it's on the previous page. Other times, they may be too lazy to use the scroll wheel.

Sometimes I'm guilty of answering questions that have already been answered... but that's because I don't read the ENTIRE thread before answering a particular post, either the OP or one of the answers or comments that might benefit from additional information or offer a contrary point of view...

I'm not particularly interested in seeing right away if someone else has addressed the same point I want to address or passed on the same information-- it's too easy to get bogged down and forget since 1) someone might not have bothered to address a certain issue for several more posts, or even pages, and 2) going back afterwards, when your train of thought has since moved on, means you forget half the stuff you wanted to post about and half the information you wanted to pass on...

later! OL JR

 

[luke strawwalker]

I am new here and have spent quite a lot of time searching for answers. Some of the time what you guys think of as common knowledge is new to us and in a lot of threads you guys use abbreviations for these(common things) and I am unable to figure out what you are talking about.
I still have yet to fully understand what is required to be level one or two and why it is even necessary.
I have been on a few forums and this one seems to have a lot of knowledge on hand but it is hard to extract it,the threads seem to go off on tangents unrelated to the original post.

Level 1, 2, and 3 are varying certifications one must get to buy and fly High Power Rocketry (HPR) motors-- IE anything above a "G" motor, basically. You must be a member of NAR or Tripoli (the two national organizations sanctioning/certifying HPR flyers) and pass a test and successfully fly a rocket in the given power range you are seeking certification for.

As to acronyms and "nicknames" for stuff (like "dog barf") well, you can always ask...

Newbs are cut some slack, or should be-- guys flying HPR aren't, or shouldn't be... the reason for the certs is so you demonstrate a BASIC KNOWLEDGE sufficient to SAFELY buy, assemble, and fly a HPR rocket...

Later! OL JR

PS. One final thought for newbs... If in doubt, GET A COPY of the "Handbook of Model Rocketry" by G. Harry Stine... I read that thing probably 20 times when I was in middle and high school, cover to cover... learned something new every time. 99% of the basic information (and NOT so basic!) you need to know about rocketry is in there!

 

[RWmarlow]

I just bought an Estes Saturn V.....what color should I paint it ? I was thinking of calling it a V-2 or or maybe a Mean Machine ,but not sure if maybe the name Rokit would be better.I plan on using 54mm reloads ,should I go with a D12-5 or D12-0 ? I have access to 1515 rails ,but was wondering where to buy 3/16" rods ?Can i really use Cabbage leaves for wadding if all i have is Iceberg lettuce ?I like clouds shaped like bunnies.

Thanks for your input.

Paul t

,,,,yeah but which Cabbage is best for wadding?can I use these as stuffing in an "Aerotech" style Baffle?

 

[jd2cylman]

,,,,yeah but which Cabbage is best for wadding?View attachment 112387can I use these as stuffing in an "Aerotech" style Baffle?View attachment 112388

So. Now I can buy this stuff at the grocery store so it looks like I'm feeding my kid healthy food, but we really know that this is the best use of Brussels Sprouts, right?

Adrian

 

[sodmeister]

Hey ,I like Brussel sprouts ! Peel the outer leaves (save for smaller Estes rockets BT-55 & BT-50) steam the sprouts until slightly tender but firm in the middle ,then in a frying pan fry up some sliced bacon until crispy ,drain off some of the fat ,add some whole Cranberries and sliced Almonds and saute until golden.

Then slap in the Brussel sprouts ,that have been cut into halves ,into the pan and saute the whole works on high heat for several minutes.

Salt and pepper to taste.

I also like Rutabagas !

I have a cookbook from England titled "How to Boil Meat" LOL

Paul t

 

[mkadams001]

No beatings in the schedule today. Yes, it is frustrating to see the same old questions and you have to wonder what some of the folks here are even attempting based on thier questions and obvious lack of experience. I can't say honestly that I take every inquiry seriously, but I do try to 'mentor' in some small way to encourage new blood and keep them from straying too far into deep waters just for safety's sake. A lot of times I just won't reply,especially if this is along the lines of "Where does the ignitor go?" There are a thousand nuances that make up our experience and some have not had the chance to experience or experiment with our hobby, beyond a random Christmas present Grandma thought would be "cool" because "Junior is soo smart, I'll bet he'll love this." I am not an expert by any means. I built 'real' rockets for a living and was always being teased about my 'toys', but there is real math, physics, design engineering and construction techniques required for success just like the big boys. LIke any hobby, there are 'checkbook' guys ot there that will just write a check for the biggest, best, or just plain most impressive in that hobby. Ready to fly radio control aircraft come to mind first and the perfect little brass locomotives all hand assembled in Asia second. Used to be most of the love of a hobby was the hours (or literally man-years) it took to create your dream as you envisioned it. Now it seems with all the labour saving devices we have, less time is available to develope the craftman-like approach and the market responds in kind to 'instant gratification' and provides the product right off the shelf-plug and play. This robs the background experience out of finding the rules that govern the performance or even inner workings of a lot of common things our parents or even grandparents could disassemble and fix if something broke. They 'understood' it. You see on a daily basis the erosion of skill sets required to survive and thrive in our previous agrarian society and the lack of those skills holds no penalty for an urbanite who will never need to know how to weld, build a house or fix an engine. The craftman that has retained or even gone to the extreme of preserving those abilities are a little like us. Hobby kinda guys who need to know how and why things work for thier own satisfaction and success. If you never had a role model to learn from, maybe you don't know how to research your own questions. Certainly the 'video' age has decimated reading skills to the point where a book is almost to be sneered at: "It's all on line anyway" mentality. We have becme a goal driven society where the objective is defined and expected to be achieved quickly, whereas our parents or grandparents age has a pride of workmanship and if you look at some of the antiques ( example-Sterling Tea sets) you realize you literally could not afford to use someone with that level of skill to make something you could sell for a profit. How many fathers have taken to time to build 'anything' with a son or daughter? Could be they had no need to learn that skill or found any enjoyment themselves with it and there is nothing to pass down. We ARE the 'keepers of the flame' and so with our knowledge gained thru sheer dint of patience and (usually) at considerable cost-we need to pass our skills onto the new generations coming up. My father was a SAC pilot and Squadron leader, but built museum quality ship models to exact scale from scratch. I treasure his leavings and am going to build similar items specifically to leave to my boys. You may have been lucky to have parent swho had hobbies, but chances are now the younger generation is coming from a set of parents where both have to work and either have had little disposable income or complete lack of time to 'waste' on a hobby. We have become the surrogates for those just coming into our world with little preparation or know how. Just take a deep breath-pick and choose you beneficiary and if you can-remember the rush, the tingling, the absolute thrill it sent thru your soul-when you first pushed the button and your very own space program lifted off the pad. We owe them that thrill-to keep our eyes towards the stars and our hearts still capable of wonder.

paragraph |ˈparəˌgraf|nouna distinct section of a piece of writing, usually dealing with a single theme and indicated by a new line, indentation, or numbering.

 

[ClusterNut]

I agree with an earlier comment that it is hard to find what you are looking for in a search. There are typically a lot of threads listed in a search and often there is a lot of extraneous stuff within those threads. I usually get my best information when something new is posted and I see it in the new posts rather than wandering through multiple threads from a search result. Frankly I have better luck for specific questions by browsing the Apogee site or the web itself. Or even better, by chatting with fellow hobbyists at launches, etc. There is a lot of really great information here but it sometimes does take some wading to find what you want. It could easily be especially overwhelming for a newbie, to rocketry or the TRF.

 

[cwbullet]

I agree the search is not perfect, but it is improved over other forums.

 

[sodmeister]

But what if a person can`t spell ,you know..to ,too,two !

But yah, I use the search and it seems to work ok ,although you may have to do a bit sifting ,but I guess that`s where a lack of instant gratification may be a bother ? lol

It does make me laugh although ,when some poor devil asks a question ,and some pompous nit will post "DO A SEARCH" like it`s wasting their time...but they found the time to post that rude comment.I don`t get that one ?????


Paul t

Paul T

 

[ClusterNut]

It does make me laugh although ,when some poor devil asks a question ,and some pompous nit will post "DO A SEARCH" like it`s wasting their time...but they found the time to post that rude comment.I don`t get that one ?????


Paul t

Paul T

Good point. And then people get intimidated and afraid to ask any questions. Better to ignore the question if you think it is a waste of time. I'm sure we all ignore posts on occasion for a variety of reasons. Come to think of it, my wife seems to ignore me on occasion.

 

[sodmeister]

Good point. And then people get intimidated and afraid to ask any questions. Better to ignore the question if you think it is a waste of time. I'm sure we all ignore posts on occasion for a variety of reasons. Come to think of it, my wife seems to ignore me on occasion.

I really feel bad for the poor person that gets that kind of responce ,and like you say ,they feel intimidated and then do the wrong thing or just fade away from the hobby.

There`s no need for elitism in hobbies and forums ,just bad all around.


Paul T

 

[FastCargo]

There`s no need for elitism in hobbies and forums ,just bad all around.

I agree...mostly.

I think certain standards should still be maintained. I'm not talking about being a 'grammar' or 'spelling' Nazi, or 'everyone needs to be a member of such and such', or anything like that.

But things like being respectful, reading the links provided for you, and taking the effort to do your own research. Also, most people here can understand the difference between someone for whom 'English is a second language' struggling to make themselves understood, and those who aren't even trying ('l33t' texters, I'm looking at you).

For those answering the new guys, point them at the Beginner's section, and specifically, the 'FAQ' thread. That should answer the majority of their questions with very little effort. And hopefully, get them to learn how to help themselves.

FC

 

[troj]

Pointing folks to existing threads an/or posts that answer their question is a very good way to do things, especially if you identify specific messages, or the thread they're pointed to is pretty concise.

Snarky "Did you search?" or "Google is your friend" type responses are anti-social and not at all welcoming.

If you can't provide a constructive, positive answer, then let someone else handle it. If everyone answers one here and there, with the number of experienced people on this forum, no one person is "doing it all"

You also have to remember that what's obvious to you, as an experience flier and user of the forum, isn't necessarily obvious to the person asking the question.

-Kevin

 

[halcro1]

Not everyone is into the hobby or any hobby as much as other people. Im a L1 and going for my L2 whenever the weather gets better, but im into rocketry as much as other L1 or 2 s on this forum. I have other hobbies im more serious about than rocketry.. so thats why I may ask a dumb question or 2..

 

[chadrog]

I don't think anyone is asking dumb questions. What I find disconcerting is that people ask questions regarding things that can be found on one's own in little to no time at all - not just on TRF but in this whole big world of ours. Do a little research.

 

[halcro1]

I don't think anyone is asking dumb questions. What I find disconcerting is that people ask questions regarding things that can be found on one's own in little to no time at all - not just on TRF but in this whole big world of ours. Do a little research.

yep some people are pure lazy.

 

[halcro1]

I don't think anyone is asking dumb questions. What I find disconcerting is that people ask questions regarding things that can be found on one's own in little to no time at all - not just on TRF but in this whole big world of ours. Do a little research.

i do like your launch pad you made when I saw it at the sod farm though.

 

[chadrog]

yep some people are pure lazy.

That's the way I see it.

 

[burnout]

It's more of a convenience than laziness.That is what a forum is about,sharing information. I'd be willing to bet almost any question could be answered by doing you own research and there would be no need for the forum but that would take more time and be a lot less entertaining.

 

[sodmeister]

It's more of a convenience than laziness.That is what a forum is about,sharing information. I'd be willing to bet almost any question could be answered by doing you own research and there would be no need for the forum but that would take more time and be a lot less entertaining.

That`s pretty much the truth isn`t it.I`ve been here for awhile and pretty much seen the same questions asked many times over ,but I like to help out whenever I may and don`t mind at all trying to help out ,and it usually makes for a fine discussion anyway.

Like you say ,there would be little need for a forum,if everybody did a search or there was a huge sticky for all topic dicussed.

There`s always going to be a silly if not anoying question ,usually spoken in tongues and riddles ,but those you can generally ignore !

Cheers

Paul T

 

[Pantherjon]

I don't think anyone is asking dumb questions.

The only dumb question(s) is/are the one(s) that go unasked..

What I find disconcerting is that people ask questions regarding things that can be found on one's own in little to no time at all - not just on TRF but in this whole big world of ours. Do a little research.

I agree, a little looking and research before asking IS helpful..