Why Alkaline batteries for Estes Launch Controller?

[Kirk G]

Merry Christmas all--

Quick question for the seasoned hands out there: Just recently, I notice a line in the instructions for use of an Estes Launch platform controller (you know, the one with the "key" for safety lock-out)... that insists that fresh ALKALINE batteries be used.

Now, when i was gifted one about a year ago, I just used whatever i could find, and was frustrated that my controller would not seem to either light the bulb, nor launch the rocket. (But not to be out-done, I had carried a 6 volt camping lantern and an extra coil of 12 feet of bell-wire...and so, was able to jury-rig an ignition system that got me into the air. Since then, I now rely on the club's launch rods, keyed system, etc., and so I've never gone back to try the controller again.)

So, in simple layman's terms, why is it that ALKALINE batteries are specified, and what is it about them that makes it WORK in this application that other batteries (that read "good" on a battery tester) won't?

 

[TopRamen]

I don't use it much, but I have one of the Yellow LPR Estes Launch Controllers with the red Wire. It came with a cheapo "Launch Set".
I put rechargeable Batteries in it, and have not had any issues. I got it about a year and 4 months ago and use it for the 13mm and 18mm stuff.
It is a very basic Circuit. It does'nt care what you put in it, as long as there are Volts and a little Amperage.

 

[Rex R]

because the carbon zinc batteries can't handle the current draw, plus with the first push of the button the cell voltage will collapse and will not return(instant dead battery). so not only won't they work, afterward they won't even work in low current applications.
Rex

 

[K'Tesh]

And (for some reason) if you leave the battery inside your Estes Launch Controller, without playing with it for a long period of time (mine wasn't touched for over a year), it will light the light, but won't do squat getting an igniter to launch your rocket. My test with another battery worked beautifully, of course the igniter wasn't in the motor that time. Now I need more igniters.

 

[TopRamen]

because the carbon zinc batteries can't handle the current draw, plus with the first push of the button the cell voltage will collapse and will not return(instant dead battery). so not only won't they work, afterward they won't even work in low current applications.
Rex

That makes perfect sense, and likely explains all those times when I was a kid and my controller would not work.
My Mom would get me new batteries, and yes, the light would come on, and we'de check for shorts, and the ignitor still would'nt light.
Funny that all these years later the reason is found.

 

[luke strawwalker]

Best thing you can do with an Estes controller is solder in leads so you can use an EXTERNAL battery-- car jumper packs work wonderfully.

IMHO the AA batteries are barely functional and basically IMHO junk. They're fine for launching 1-2 rockets in the park... anything beyond that and a better power source is called for IMHO...

Later! OL JR

 

[Rex R]

This information provided free of charge* courtesy of the IpLA .
*pass it along
Rex

 

[ThirstyBarbarian]

I got almost 2 years of use out of my last set of Duracell AA batteries in my Estes E controller --- probably over 100 launches. I finally swapped them out just because it seemed like I should. In the past I've lost controllers when the batteries leaked during storage.

 

[FastCargo]

In the past I've lost controllers when the batteries leaked during storage.

I've noticed with just about anything that sits long term that batteries will leak. I've started as a force of habit to remove batteries from items I suspect 'might' sit for a long time without use for that reason.

FC

 

[Rex R]

the 'International Potato Launching Association'. we had the discussion about battery types a few years back...about what one should use in ones stun gun* and for brushless fans**. and yes I is a charter member.
*ignition and **chamber mixing
Rex

 

[ASA]

They want you to have high current to heat the igniter. Zinc carbon, NiCad and NIMh AA cells do not produce as much energy. The battery is a near dead short when firing. Think of lighting up an incandescent light, even for a moment.

My launch system consists of 8 c cell batteries hard wired in series. They go to a momentary contact switch, spring loaded off. It has been assembled for the last 10 years and still pops the starters right off. When my battery pack starts to fail I will de solder it and wire in a new one. One thing I have found as a reliability issue in any battery circuit is the connectors, connectors many times will corrode making the circuit malfunction. I don't use any connectors except for the alligator clips on the ignitors.

 

[mrichhcirm]

I have an Estes 9V launch controller. I wanted to get more zip out of it so I went to Fry's and got a bunch of 9V battery connectors, and soldered together a wiring harness that pairs 2 9V in series (18V without load), wired in parallel with another 18V series pair. That's 4 9V batteries giving me 18V peak (and probably a good 7-8+ V under load) at about the same internal resistance as a single 9V. Estes motors snap to attention even with the new white-tip starters.

Why 9V, you ask? Well, I have 4 smoke detectors in my house, and the batteries get changed twice a year. This gives me a good way to reuse the old ones, which still have lots of juice left.

 

[Brent]

In my opinion the old Estes / NCR launch controller was the best one they ever made. You could use an RC car battery pack or external battery. I always used an external 12V. Still have one of these but I don't use it much except for ground testing occasionally. I mostley use the clubs system and my wireless.

 

[shreadvector]

Most new smoke detectors do NOT have you change the battery twice a year. If you have the very old (decades ago) variety, then continue to do so. If you have new detectors, consult the actual instructions (printed or available online).

I love using up old batteries that still have some juice left in them. I put 8 AA batteries together in the Fry's plastic battery holder and they have the 9V style attachment so you can snap it to the new Estes or the Quest controller 9V connector.

I have an Estes 9V launch controller. I wanted to get more zip out of it so I went to Fry's and got a bunch of 9V battery connectors, and soldered together a wiring harness that pairs 2 9V in series (18V without load), wired in parallel with another 18V series pair. That's 4 9V batteries giving me 18V peak (and probably a good 7-8+ V under load) at about the same internal resistance as a single 9V. Estes motors snap to attention even with the new white-tip starters.

Why 9V, you ask? Well, I have 4 smoke detectors in my house, and the batteries get changed twice a year. This gives me a good way to reuse the old ones, which still have lots of juice left.

 

[shreadvector]

Try the NEW Estes Pro Series controller. It is quite good.

In my opinion the old Estes / NCR launch controller was the best one they ever made. You could use an RC car battery pack or external battery. I always used an external 12V. Still have one of these but I don't use it much except for ground testing occasionally. I mostley use the clubs system and my wireless.

 

[swatkat]

The battery packs from my kids old R/C cars work really well. They are still NiMH, but are 6 cells in series... I've launched probably 80-100 on a charge and then recharged that same pack several times so far. Likely on my 7th or 8th charge so far. it also works for the Aerotech Copperheads and First Fire Jr. (or what ever they ship with the economax F44's are called). It does take about 1-2 seconds on the Aerotech ones though for it to "go".

 

[bill_s]

I thought ni-cad type batteries are very high current capability, although they start off a little lower voltage. I've had them melt wires.

The answer to the original question, alkalines are high current, low internal resistance. Or another explanation, general purpose cells would need to be maybe 95% full to work at all, and that 5% usable goes quicker than with a better battery too.

 

[jn2412]

Merry Christmas all--

Quick question for the seasoned hands out there: Just recently, I notice a line in the instructions for use of an Estes Launch platform controller (you know, the one with the "key" for safety lock-out)... that insists that fresh ALKALINE batteries be used.

Now, when i was gifted one about a year ago, I just used whatever i could find, and was frustrated that my controller would not seem to either light the bulb, nor launch the rocket. (But not to be out-done, I had carried a 6 volt camping lantern and an extra coil of 12 feet of bell-wire...and so, was able to jury-rig an ignition system that got me into the air. Since then, I now rely on the club's launch rods, keyed system, etc., and so I've never gone back to try the controller again.)

So, in simple layman's terms, why is it that ALKALINE batteries are specified, and what is it about them that makes it WORK in this application that other batteries (that read "good" on a battery tester) won't?

I have a new controller with 4 rechargeable batteries. The light wont go on? Does the light only go on when the clips are connected to the engine leads?

 

[neil_w]

I have a new controller with 4 rechargeable batteries. The light wont go on? Does the light only go on when the clips are connected to the engine leads?

That's a continuity light, which lights to indicate that you have a proper connection to the igniter, and that the igniter is not broken. So yeah, it only lights when everything is connected up.

Rechargeables can work if they're in good shape and have a good charge. In my admittedly brief testing of them, I wasn't too impressed with typical off-the-shelf NiMH batteries. Probably worth doing some testing before you head out to the field.

 

[BEC]

I have a new controller with 4 rechargeable batteries. The light wont go on? Does the light only go on when the clips are connected to the engine leads?

Perform the test as shown in the instructions.

 

[prfesser]

That's a continuity light, which lights to indicate that you have a proper connection to the igniter, and that the igniter is not broken. So yeah, it only lights when everything is connected up.

Rechargeables can work if they're in good shape and have a good charge. In my admittedly brief testing of them, I wasn't too impressed with typical off-the-shelf NiMH batteries. Probably worth doing some testing before you head out to the field.

NiCd and NiMH are 1.2V cells, alkalines are 1.5V. Four alkaline in series = 6V. Four NiCd/NiMH = 4.8V. I don't know how much of a difference that makes...but I'd bet it does make a significant difference in use.

 

[Grant_Edwards]

because the carbon zinc batteries can't handle the current draw, plus with the first push of the button the cell voltage will collapse and will not return(instant dead battery). so not only won't they work, afterward they won't even work in low current applications.

I wasn't even aware that you could buy carbon-zinc batteries any more...

 

[Rex R]

As soon as we say that about batteries...someone is bound to find some carbon zinc cells somewhere.

 

[Rex R]

After a quick search, Panasonic has CZn batt.s for low power app.s

 

[prfesser]

I wasn't even aware that you could buy carbon-zinc batteries any more...

Batteries labeled "Super Heavy Duty" but don't say "alkaline" are almost certainly C-Zn cells.

 

[Xionone]

Batteries labeled "Super Heavy Duty" but don't say "alkaline" are almost certainly C-Zn cells.

Hi, rechargeable batteries appear to be about 0.5mm shorter than zink batteries. They don't get a good connection in my experience.

 

[neil_w]

NiCd and NiMH are 1.2V cells, alkalines are 1.5V. Four alkaline in series = 6V. Four NiCd/NiMH = 4.8V. I don't know how much of a difference that makes...but I'd bet it does make a significant difference in use.

Well, 1.2V is actually fairly far down the discharge curve. Freshly charged they're at 1.4V, and they stay in the 1.3V range for a while.

In any case, though, I think the ability to drive current to the igniter is much more dependent on the internal resistance than the small difference in voltage. Unfortunately, despite some things I've read suggesting that NiMH internal resistance is quite a bit lower than for alkaline batteries, I haven't seen much difference in practice. It's possible there are better NiMH batteries out there that will perform better than mine.

And so I rather quickly abandoned my plans to use NiMH rechargeables. There are Lithium AA batteries that might perform better, but I don't have any to test with (not sure if my charger will work with them either).

Hi, rechargeable batteries appear to be about 0.5mm shorter than zink batteries. They don't get a good connection in my experience.

This has not been my experience.

 

[John Kemker]

As soon as we say that about batteries...someone is bound to find some carbon zinc cells somewhere.

Dollar General has them. They're cheap AF.

 

[mh9162013]

A great rechargeable option for model rocketry are regulated lithium AA cells.

They are AA size (AAA is also available), but they have a lithium ion (or poly) cell inside. Special electronics reduce the voltage down to exactly 1.5 volts and hold them there until the cell is depleted. I'm not sure on their current output, but I'm pretty sure they provide at least the same amount of current a fresh set of name-brand alkaline cells can provide. I use Tenavolt cells in my Estes Electron Beam launch controller and they work great.

So what's the catch? There are several:

First, they're not cheap. You can get a set of 4 cells and a charger from Amazon for $35, although they're sometimes on sale for a lot less. But if you launch a lot, they'll pay for themselves. You can also use these cells in other devices and gadgets if you don't want to use them for model rocketry.

Second, they need a special charger. So your hobby R/C or consumer lithium chargers won't work.

Third, b/c they're regulated, there's little warning to when they're depleted. So you want to have a set of spare batteries with you at the launch field, for sure.

Fourth, they probably emit a small amount of EMI/RFI. It's probably not more than a typical electronic device, though. They seem to work just fine in high end metal detectors (single frequency, not simultaneously multi-frequency models), which are very sensitive to EMI compared to most consumer products. So it's highly unlikely the RFI will be an issue for model rocketry, but you should understand that the RFI likely exists, unlike with a regular lithium, NiMH or alkaline cell.

 

[BEC]

A great rechargeable option for model rocketry are regulated lithium AA cells.

They are AA size (AAA is also available), but they have a lithium ion (or poly) cell inside. Special electronics reduce the voltage down to exactly 1.5 volts and hold them there until the cell is depleted. I'm not sure on their current output, but I'm pretty sure they provide at least the same amount of current a fresh set of name-brand alkaline cells can provide. I use Tenavolt cells in my Estes Electron Beam launch controller and they work great.

So what's the catch? There are several:

First, they're not cheap. You can get a set of 4 cells and a charger from Amazon for $35, although they're sometimes on sale for a lot less. But if you launch a lot, they'll pay for themselves. You can also use these cells in other devices and gadgets if you don't want to use them for model rocketry.

Second, they need a special charger. So your hobby R/C or consumer lithium chargers won't work.

Third, b/c they're regulated, there's little warning to when they're depleted. So you want to have a set of spare batteries with you at the launch field, for sure.

Fourth, they probably emit a small amount of EMI/RFI. It's probably not more than a typical electronic device, though. They seem to work just fine in high end metal detectors (single frequency, not simultaneously multi-frequency models), which are very sensitive to EMI compared to most consumer products. So it's highly unlikely the RFI will be an issue for model rocketry, but you should understand that the RFI likely exists, unlike with a regular lithium, NiMH or alkaline cell.

Those Tenavolt cells are very interesting....and available from Amazon at the same price as from Tenavolt. In looking on Amazon there are other implementations of the same general idea: a lithium cell, voltage regulator and protection circuit, and sometimes a charging circuit, inside. Some of them can be charged directly by plugging the cell into a USB cable, with no other charger at all.

I've been using NiMHs in a few things around the house — small cordless Dremel tool that uses four AAs, electric toothbrushes, one older digital camera. I may have to give some of these a try particularly as the NiMHs (Sony CycleEnergy and Sanyo Eneloops) are aging.

As I've noted before I normally use an Estes PSII controller with a 3s LiPoly in it for my personal launches (though I also carry a Solar Launch Controller with AAs inside as a backup and I have an Electron Beam in my very small take-it-to-the-beach field box). But both of those are used so infrequently that I've never thought to put rechargeables, especially NiMH ones that will self-discharge between uses, in them. Instead they have plain ol' Duracells.

Still, intriguing.