Revoking HPR Certs

[Neutronium95]

Is there any precedent or process for either NAR or Tripoli to revoke a certification? Relatively recently I've heard stories about some people that have made egregious safety violations, to the point that I am questioning whether or not that person should have a certification.

 

[Five]

Why were the safety violations?

 

[dhbarr]

Is there any precedent or process for either NAR or Tripoli to revoke a certification? Relatively recently I've heard stories about some people that have made egregious safety violations, to the point that I am questioning whether or not that person should have a certification.

In my ( rare ) experience flyers perceived as dangerous or careless would usually be uninvited from a particular flying field.

 

[Worsaer]

Tripoli’s bylaws have provisions for suspending or revoking membership.

 

[MidOH]

Such as?.........

 

[dhbarr]

Tripoli Rocketry Association Bylaws suggest the answer is

Sorry, the document you requested is not available.

EDIT: Yes, I notified HQ

 

[Tim51]

My understanding is that, rather than revoking certs per se, UKRA has banned persons from membership for safety violations. There is provision for it in our regs.

 

[Worsaer]

The Tripoli link has been corrected.

 

[dhbarr]

The Tripoli link has been corrected.

You're fast! Tripoli Rocketry Association Bylaws are totally reachable now.

SECTION 3. DISCIPLINARY ACTION, SUSPENSION, AND REMOVAL.
Members may be suspended or removed from the corporation for just cause by the board of directors.

Just cause includes, but is not limited to,
violation of any applicable safety code adopted by the board of directors,
illegal activities,
unsafe activities in violation of federal, state, or municipal statutes, laws, regulations, rules, ordinances, or the like, or
acts determined by the board of directors to be detrimental or injurious to the corporation.

Suspension is defined as a loss of all membership privileges for a period of time, with both the duration of the suspension and the conditions for reinstatement specified by the board of directors.

Removal is defined as a permanent expulsion of the individual from the membership ranks of the organization.
Disciplinary action shall be conducted in accordance with the parliamentary procedure adopted by the board of directors of the corporation.

All disciplinary action shall be conducted and decided by the board of directors.

So it sounds like RONR 12th ed. would apply here as per the usual policing of a private society.

BUT! Have you talked to the person in question? Has the local club talked to the person in question?

 

[Worsaer]

I agree. These should be viewed as ‘teachable moments’ long before considering disciplinary actions. We want people to grow and enjoy the hobby.

 

[Bill S]

I agree. These should be viewed as ‘teachable moments’ long before considering disciplinary actions. We want people to grow and enjoy the hobby.

Yes.
Its the difference between one taking aside the offending person (or asking an club official to have a chat with them) and expressing your concerns, and being a Karen (aka busybody bully) trying to get them kicked out/revoke membership, etc...

 

[cwbullet]

I have had to have a frank discussion with a couple flyers. We have all made mistakes. Blatant disregard is another thing.

 

[Tim51]

I have had to have a frank discussion with a couple flyers. We have all made mistakes. Blatant disregard is another thing.

This is a key point. The 'busybody/bully' point made by @Bill S is valid, but it works both ways - the reckless flier who ignores the rules or is dismissive of club officials for carrying out their duties is often pretty resistant to teachable moments. When you're RSO and you're carrying out your duties as such, you have a right to know that the club and the organisation membership is behind you.

 

[afadeev]

Is there any precedent or process for either NAR or Tripoli to revoke a certification? Relatively recently I've heard stories about some people that have made egregious safety violations, to the point that I am questioning whether or not that person should have a certification.

So what exactly is the offense in question?
Have you witnessed it yourself, or "heard stories about some people"?

There is a HUGE difference between

• "I saw something unsafe, talked to the person, and he still didn't listen. Now what should I do"
  • vs.
• "Bob is a jackass, he doesn't fold the chute the same way I do, that's why his rocket came in ballistic when the ejection charge did not fire. Lets make fun of Bob from now on."

a

 

[cwbullet]

This is a key point. The 'busybody/bully' point made by @Bill S is valid, but it works both ways - the reckless flier who ignores the rules or is dismissive of club officials for carrying out their duties is often pretty resistant to teachable moments. When you're RSO and you're carrying out your duties as such, you have a right to know that the club and the organisation membership is behind you.

What the RSO and LCO say goes!.........period. I, as the prefect, never override them.

If you want to run a club your way, start you own!

 

[Rob Campbell]

While those who blatantly disregard safety are rare, we must continue to police ourselves. This hobby doesn't need a black eye. I also fly RC airplanes and the overwhelming majority of traditional RC pilots (airplanes and traditional helicopters) are very safe operators, the wide availability of low-cost multi-rotor drones has enabled rouge operators to operate recklessly by doing things like flying in airport traffic patterns to take pictures of airliners and fly over crowded city streets. We took several black eyes over the rogues and the FAA has tried to impose some very Draconian regulations on us. fortunately, the Academy of Model Aeronautics has been successful in stopping the worst of it.

 

[UhClem]

Is there any precedent or process for either NAR or Tripoli to revoke a certification?

I have seen an Article 3 Section 11 action once in NAR. (More about revoking membership than certification.) But that was a case of a small group having a personal beef with the target and nothing to back up their complaints. It still resulted in the automatic temporary suspension of the target while the process played out.

The process was altered after that to make the suspension optional instead of automatic.

 

[sharkbait]

Is there any precedent or process for either NAR or Tripoli to revoke a certification? Relatively recently I've heard stories about some people that have made egregious safety violations, to the point that I am questioning whether or not that person should have a certification.

Please give us the specific examples as to what you saw as egregious safety violations. As a prefect myself, I have dealt with some inexperience, carelessness, distractions, ignorance of the safety codes, go fly it fever, but have not yet seen any blatant disregard of safety protocol when the flyer has been informed of any violations nor would the club officers allow it

 

[Titan II]

error

 

[Neutronium95]

Please give us the specific examples as to what you saw as egregious safety violations. As a prefect myself, I have dealt with some inexperience, carelessness, distractions, ignorance of the safety codes, go fly it fever, but have not yet seen any blatant disregard of safety protocol when the flyer has been informed of any violations nor would the club officers allow it

I'm not quite sure how much detail to go into, but on a different rocketry chat group I'm in, someone asked some questions about doing a flight in a potentially unsafe way. Multiple people told them not to do it, but they apparently went ahead and did it anyways, causing a rocket to lawn dart. This happened on the other side of the country from me, so I was only tangentially involved.

Needless to say I was quite frustrated, and I think that I ended up posting this thread mostly to vent.

 

[Rob Campbell]

I'm not quite sure how much detail to go into, but on a different rocketry chat group I'm in, someone asked some questions about doing a flight in a potentially unsafe way. Multiple people told them not to do it, but they apparently went ahead and did it anyways, causing a rocket to lawn dart. This happened on the other side of the country from me, so I was only tangentially involved.

Needless to say I was quite frustrated, and I think that I ended up posting this thread mostly to vent.

My best advice is to not get involved in this and don't fight other people's battles. You weren't there to witness the event, so any evidence you have is essentially hearsay. I assume this was a high power flight, making it likely it took place at an organized launch. Let the local club officers deal with the situation.

 

[Steve Shannon]

What the RSO and LCO say goes!.........period. I, as the prefect, never override them.

If you want to run a club your way, start you own!

Actually, nobody can override the RSO (at least not by being more permissive). The RSO has ultimate authority for safety at a Tripoli launch.

 

[cwbullet]

Actually, nobody can override the RSO (at least not by being more permissive). The RSO has ultimate authority for safety at a Tripoli launch.

Understood. That is how we run the launch. I get a fe requests to override.

 

[FlyBy01]

What the RSO and LCO say goes!.........period. I, as the prefect, never override them.

If you want to run a club your way, start you own!

I agree with this that the RSO and LCO are in place to help prevent unsafe or careless activity. Revocation seems a bit extreme and a possible failure of the launch inspection system. I would consider personality conflicts and agree with the teachable moment method or mentor approach.

 

[Neutronium95]

My best advice is to not get involved in this and don't fight other people's battles. You weren't there to witness the event, so any evidence you have is essentially hearsay. I assume this was a high power flight, making it likely it took place at an organized launch. Let the local club officers deal with the situation.

That's probably for the best. I just got angry when the advice of multiple people on a safety critical area was disregarded, leading to a potentially dangerous flight.

 

[sharkbait]

I'm not quite sure how much detail to go into, but on a different rocketry chat group I'm in, someone asked some questions about doing a flight in a potentially unsafe way. Multiple people told them not to do it, but they apparently went ahead and did it anyways, causing a rocket to lawn dart. This happened on the other side of the country from me, so I was only tangentially involved.

Needless to say I was quite frustrated, and I think that I ended up posting this thread mostly to vent.

Your OP said that there where egregious safety violations that caused enough concern to revoke certifications. This response says some chatter on some other forum was discouraging a POTENTIALLY unsafe flight that happened on the other side of the country that apparently resulted in a lawn dart, still just a bunch of opinions, like the others said, make sure you have a competent RSO and all the club officers back him 100% as long as he is correct in his decisions regarding a go or no go flight, yes I have seen RSO’s make errors

 

[Rob Campbell]

That's probably for the best. I just got angry when the advice of multiple people on a safety critical area was disregarded, leading to a potentially dangerous flight.

It's easy to get caught up in something like this. I've done myself and had to learn the hard way when to not inject myself into a situation

 

[dhbarr]

yes I have seen RSO’s make errors

They keep letting me fly, so you know their judgement isn't flawless

 

[plugger]

In my ( rare ) experience flyers perceived as dangerous or careless would usually be uninvited from a particular flying field.

Same. We've had a similar situation occur in the past. Safe to say if your actions are bad enough to anger the landholder or landholder's representative you're really stepping in it. And you shouldn't be surprised if you're told that you're no longer welcome to fly at that site.

 

[dr wogz]

We all here tend to be a good bunch, safety minded and supportive (except on political & religious posts! )

But I do tend to see a bit of unsafe / unknowing behavior in the FB groups, with encouragement from the others.. Have never seen anything 'wrong' personally except at one large event where some L0 managed to snag an L1 motor (I-Something). He apparently manage to get in one launch, but was caught on his 2nd attempt.. The RSO 'assume' you have the required certification, yet few check, especially the volunteers at the larger events.. Smaller fields / clubs tend to be more hands on & aware..