What new things does the hobby want to see?

[jqavins]

If you could give a few examples of parts and what you think the market would pay, I would be glad to crunch some numbers.

Yes, sadly, you're probably right that it wouldn't pay, until there's some technological advance that makes the manufacturing cheaper without imposing a large barrier to entry.

I've got two things in mind. One couldn't be ordered from the BMS order sheet. The other could, and I did, and it's not what I got. He said he couldn't make what I'd ordered and sent something he thought would be close enough; I didn't think it was. He did refund my money without an argument. I'm not here to complain about BMS; I've bought other things and been perfectly satisfied.

Anyway, I'll get you the specifics when I'm not sitting in a laundromat.

 

[kuririn]

A low cost custom balsa parts service like BMS used to be.

The current balsa shortage and high prices for blanks means that ain't happening anytime soon.
Many vendors are/have switched to 3D printed components.

Anyway, I'll get you the specifics when I'm not sitting in a laundromat.

Sorry, read about your washing machine dying on the other thread.
Have you considered a manually operated washing machine?


1. Saves on electricity. Works even during power outages.
2. Replaces a rowing machine. Great workout for your arms.
3. Environmentally friendly. Low carbon footprint.
Your wife will love it!

 

[kuririn]

Heh, I forgot to post what I came here for.
3D printers that use lightweight materials, not necessarily resin. Stronger but lighter than paper.
Instead of straight cylindrical paper tubes we can have strong lightweight curvilinear airframes and components of any design. Opens up an unlimited number of possibilities.
Example:
Spherical chutes with shroud lines integrated instead of tied or sewn on.
Motor mounts printed as part of the airframe instead of glued in. Much stronger.
Integrated lightweight honeycombed fins. Perfectly aligned, no gluing.
And 3D printers that do not add layer on layer with micro ridges.
Remember when 9 and 24 pin dot matrix printers were replaced with inkjets and lasers?
No sanding!
Ooh, my head is swimming.

 

[bobbyg23]

I thought that's what kids are for?

I have some of those.

 

[kuririn]

I have some of those.

I love pre-dawn/dusk videos. You can really see the orange flame from the rocket.

 

[0011001100]

3D printers that use lightweight materials

https://colorfabb.com/lw-pla-blackNot perfect but a start

 

[CPUTommy]

If you could give a few examples of parts and what you think the market would pay, I would be glad to crunch some numbers.

From the efforts I've put out over the past couple of years, it seems that the rocket market specifically is so tight as far as cost/sell price goes that anyone trying to accomplish a custom cutting service (even with templates) is going to work for minimum wage on good days and will donate their time on others.



I understand that and think that if there was a bit more room for margin, there would be a few more boutique shops producing neat stuff as well.

Having said that, when I first got back into rocketry around 2000, I was more financially constrained than I am now and back then I would absolutely search tons of sites, add stuff to carts (if they had online ordering), check shipping and would buy from whoever had the lowest total. . . usually in the $5-10 range on a $100 order.

Once I started flying at clubs, I quickly switched to supporting onsite vendor(s) for most stuff, but still purchased bulk tubes and other items like that online due to a pretty big price difference.

I think the concept of 'you reap what you sew' applies and I have been part of the problem in the past.



I agree here as well, but I don't know how most companies would accomplish the goal and still make some profit.

The costs to tool-up for something isn't zero (even for laser cut parts due to programming time and is way more for cast items like nosecones). Attached is a picture of a prototype nosecone I made for a specific model and after running the initial run of 25 parts to verify production time etc., it would end up being a $5 cost part using the method I was employing. Even if it was a cool rocket kit (which I thought it was, but I doubt would sell for $20 complete, packed with instructions etc.), $5 for the cone killed the idea.

I think to make the same kit in China would cost a good amount up front, but if thousands sold, whoever did that would possibly make money. For a small shop trying to meet a market like those on TRF vs Estes reach, selling thousands of a single kit seems like a pipe-dream at best. Maybe I'm wrong. . .

Interesting discussion! I'll keep reading for sure.

Im psyched that you understand my thinking. It was something that bothered me for a while and I chose to acually do something about it. These vendors we have are just awesome.

Just for a second imagine AEROTECH or CTI stopping production of there motor line,

im sure the guy who LOVED hobbying, put his life into doing what he loved, opened a decent store 25 years ago, and now HAS or HAD to close the doors forever because you haven't made a profit in the past 5 years, Youd think he would step up and say "hey lets open a propulsion business, im sure we can make and sell A.P. ...."

The vendors we have, from my own experience have alwalys answered the phone even though they have 10000 things going on. Having to deal with the mail, UPS, FED EX and or what ever carrier, the orders, the changing parts numbers, stuff happens, and you add life on top of that.. for a profit of sometimes next in the single cents.

I Can only attest that personally wildman and apogee both answered the phone and both answered my questions or at least lead me in the correct direction. I thanked them both, and I would also like to SUPPORT them both (and as many others as I can) because in the long run, if we all support these vendors they will continue to support us. Ive heard wonderful things about ALL the vendors, and have used quite a few in the past. The 2 I referenced were wildman and apogee as they were the 2 that I happened to call over the last week.

We have something really good here, knowledge, skill and in some cases just pure art. We have the vendors to make this all happen. We can invest in our selves through heavily supporting our local vendors and if your lucky enough a small hobby shop. (I'm not saying dont buy from HL or even Estes) im saying we all should re evaluate where our rocket money goes.

I have been spending (re investing) more money this year, specifically from vendors who support us. I have no problem spending 7 cents more on a thrust ring... heck...please charge me 17 cents and bring out an upscale Estes kit like a Comanche 3 that nets you a profit of more than $7 dollars, so that this hobby is around for many, many children to experience and enjoy.

We have what can be essentially, a craft, to a hobby , to a sport , to extreme. Lets fly !

Tom

 

[CPUTommy]

https://colorfabb.com/lw-pla-blackNot perfect but a start

I have a few 3d printers, all you have to do is save the file as an STL file.. send it to me, I load it and boom out comes your nose cone. Won't be $5 dollars. Quality determines price. ..

 

[Cape Byron]

Just for a second imagine AEROTECH or CTI stopping production of there motor line,

im sure the guy who LOVED hobbying, put his life into doing what he loved, opened a decent store 25 years ago, and now HAS or HAD to close the doors forever because you haven't made a profit in the past 5 years, Youd think he would step up and say "hey lets open a propulsion business, im sure we can make and sell A.P. ...."

If I had half a million dollars I couldn't start to produce what AeroTech does. They have been in business for nearly 40 years and have a wealth of experience in testing and manufacture, not to mention things like logistics.

If it were easy we'd all would be doing it. It isn't easy.

 

[CPUTommy]

If I had half a million dollars I couldn't start to produce what AeroTech does. They have been in business for nearly 40 years and have a wealth of experience in testing and manufacture, not to mention things like logistics.

If it were easy we'd all would be doing it. It isn't easy.

Just think of the 3 ring binders you'd need just in stuff... yeah....man power /labor cost.. just alone won't produce a grain with 1/2 million.

 

[Big Red Rocketeer]

I would like to see more kits, parts, motors components NOT made in china. I will pay the extra dollar to get a rocket kit made in the US.

Estes, are you listening????

Absolutely!!! I sent a message to Estes to that effect.

 

[Cape Byron]

Just think of the 3 ring binders you'd need just in stuff... yeah....man power /labor cost.. just alone won't produce a grain with 1/2 million.

I've got a lot of time for the few companies that manufacture motors. R&D, testing, certification... It has me wondering what Estes needed to invest to bring back the larger BP motors recently.

That said, If I won the lottery I'd be approaching Quest/AeroTech for a dealership.

 

[ghostfather]

https://colorfabb.com/lw-pla-blackNot perfect but a start

Have used that, it does make a big difference in weight (extruded filament sort of foams up), but it's good to know when you can get away with it, and when not. I like it for filled nose cones, but it takes more finishing to get smooth. Wouldn't use it for structural fins unless the outside shell is a bit thicker, that kind of thing.
One of the demo models they use is a 3D printed RC plane.

 

[shockie]

I've noticed that some companies pull you in with low prices then charge you a arm and a leg for postage.....I know how much things cost to ship because I've been selling and buying on ebay for 25 years. A $10 rocket costs $15 for shipping? Really? I know margins are short, but please....it feels like a bait and switch. I can see where really large rockets would require more shipping....

 

[RocketTree]

I have a few 3d printers, all you have to do is save the file as an STL file.. send it to me, I load it and boom out comes your nose cone. Won't be $5 dollars. Quality determines price. ..

Considered purchasing a 3D printer for a couple years now.... maybe you can answer a couple questions for me...?

What is the rough cost in materials to 3D print (for example) a BT-80 nose cone?

Weight in grams and time duration for printing?

Thanks

 

[neil_w]

I've noticed that some companies pull you in with low prices then charge you a arm and a leg for postage.....I know how much things cost to ship because I've been selling and buying on ebay for 25 years. A $10 rocket costs $15 for shipping? Really? I know margins are short, but please....it feels like a bait and switch. I can see where really large rockets would require more shipping....

That is a calculated business tactic designed to trap folks who are not paying careful attention. When I encounter such a business I simply move on.

 

[jqavins]

That said, If I won the lottery I'd be approaching Quest/AeroTech for a dealership.

I'd do the R&D and testing for motors that I'd like to see (and hope some others would) then pay AT to manufacturer them. Like Apogee does with their Medalist motors. That's if I had a half million that I could afford to lose.

That is a calculated business tactic designed to trap folks who are not paying careful attention. When I encounter such a business I simply move on.

When it's seriously outrageous I move on and try to remember who tne vendor is so I can avoid them forever.

When it merely seems rather high, I just consider the price plus shipping, i.e. what I pay to put the thing in my hands, and decide it that's worth it.

 

[ghostfather]

Considered purchasing a 3D printer for a couple years now.... maybe you can answer a couple questions for me...?

What is the rough cost in materials to 3D print (for example) a BT-80 nose cone?

Weight in grams and time duration for printing?

Thanks

I ran a BT-80 nose cone STL exported from Rocksim thru my slicing program (Ultimaker Cura) using PET filament and a 10% cubic infill, 0.15mmlayer height, 0.4mm nozzle. My Ultimaker 2 Extended+ printer takes about 16.5 hours to print, and uses 146 grams of filament.

That's about 20% of a 750 gram roll of filament, which costs me about 35 euro per roll, so about 7 euro or about $8.50 US on material. Of course, filament prices are different in the US, depending on the quality and sort.

Also, a hollow nose cone with thicker walls and no fill will probably print faster (9 hours, about half the weight), but then you need to add your own coupler and a bulk plate. If I were to add a thickened structure to carry the forces of a shock cord mount (eye bolt), that would add weight and cost and print time.

You can also factor in your learning costs, as not everything I print turns out usable. Costs time and filament, making mistakes. Filament crimps slightly as it cools, so I'm sometimes printing slightly larger to get an exact fit. Sometimes the object comes loose from the build plate, and then you've got spaghetti. After a bit of experience, you could probably knock off a $8.50 nose cone without much problem.

For me, the 3D printed stuff is about unique parts that you can't buy. Make a 3D scan of your wife's face, make a nose cone out of it, and launch that!
Priceless

 

[CPUTommy]

Considered purchasing a 3D printer for a couple years now.... maybe you can answer a couple questions for me...?

What is the rough cost in materials to 3D print (for example) a BT-80 nose cone?

Weight in grams and time duration for printing?

Thanks

What is the rough cost in materials to 3D print (for example) a BT-80 nose cone? Probably around 10 cents in filiment, a SPOOL costs between $10 and $30

Weight is what you design it to be. There is a weight measurement..

Send me a BT 50. / 60. Nose cone and ill try to import it and give you a netter figure.

 

[CPUTommy]

Just to compare
For fun and to see how it works.


Setups below

 

[0011001100]

Have used that, it does make a big difference in weight (extruded filament sort of foams up), but it's good to know when you can get away with it, and when not. I like it for filled nose cones, but it takes more finishing to get smooth. Wouldn't use it for structural fins unless the outside shell is a bit thicker, that kind of thing.
One of the demo models they use is a 3D printed RC plane.

Personally haven't used it, but I think it would be perfect as a base for a single fiberglass/carbon fiber layup. Print a fincan with it and then put a single layer over it and it would be light, stiff, and nearly perfectly aligned.

 

[ghostfather]

single fiberglass/carbon fiber layup

exactly what I've used it for , a segmented long rocket with a layer of fiberglass holding the segments together. Still working on getting it lighter, and still strong enough

 

[OverTheTop]

That is a calculated business tactic designed to trap folks who are not paying careful attention. When I encounter such a business I simply move on.

It is mostly to reduce the amount of fees paid to selling sites. eBay charges fees based on the item only.

I just look at the combined price when buying, item+postage.

 

[neil_w]

It is mostly to reduce the amount of fees paid to selling sites. eBay charges fees based on the item only.

I just look at the combined price when buying, item+postage.

I confess I wasn't thinking of eBay; what you're saying makes sense. I was thinking more of regular web storefronts that have exotic shipping charges, so obviously ridiculous but you don't see those numbers until you're already going through checkout.

 

[OverTheTop]

I confess I wasn't thinking of eBay; what you're saying makes sense. I was thinking more of regular web storefronts that have exotic shipping charges, so obviously ridiculous but you don't see those numbers until you're already going through checkout.

Maybe those sort of storefronts just like to take peoples money who want to give it away. Some of the automatic calculators are ridiculous and overestimate shipping massively. I have struck that a few times over the years and when queried the shop would calculate the real postage for me.

It is a pain to have to go through everything before getting the final cost though.

 

[Sandy H.]

about $8.50 US on material.

Probably around 10 cents

That's a pretty big disparity in material costs for a BT-80 nosecone. Sure, the shape matters, but not by a factor of 85.

I have a few 3d printers, all you have to do is save the file as an STL file.. send it to me, I load it and boom out comes your nose cone. Won't be $5 dollars. Quality determines price. ..

For quality similar to an injection molded nosecone (sand 2 parting lines, but not a whole lot more prior to prime and final paint) would it be more or less than $5? The first time I read it, I assumed less. The second time I read it, I assumed more.

Personally, I can't see how someone in the US could produce reasonable quality, low quantity nosecones using 3D printing at a price low enough to sell (with profit), but I completely accept that I'm wrong. Totally different if doing it as a hobby, but to actually use the technology for a profitable venture in low and medium quantities seems elusive to me.

Sandy.

 

[RocketRev]

well 1st it would have to pass the NAR safety code.
secondly, it would have to have a separate pad and launch control units.
third, it would have to be expandable in the sense that I could add a pad unit ....
I would like to have a switch that I can say fire pad 1, then flip the switch and fire pad 2....
using an Arduino would be a plus

what 3 are you talking about? got any URL's?

Hello Shockie,

As to passing the NAR safety code, I can only speak for the Wilson F/X system with any authority as I'm the owner. WFX passes the safety codes of NAR, CAR, and TRA. Around 70 clubs in the USA alone use WFX systems. And its being used in several of the European Union countries, Australia, and South Africa.
My systems can be found at www.wilsonfx.com though the website is not always up to date....ok rarely up to date. I've attached a pdf price list with short descriptions.

The three commercial wireless launch systems that I know of are that are suitable for high power rocketry are:

the Quickfire system from Quickburst quickburst.net/quickfire_page.htm
This system is either a four or an eight pad system Reading thru the webpage it is unclear to me whether the price for a four pad system is $550 or $750
The web page also says that it has a range limit of 1000 to 1500 feet.

and the Telelaunch system from altusmetrum.org › TeleLaunch
Currently, the smallest system that they have in production is an 8-pad wireless system costing $1250
They have a prototype 2-pad wireless system in the works, but that's all that I know avbout it.
And according to the website in the US, you will need an amateur radio license or other authorization to legally operate the radio transmitters that are part of TeleLaunch. The website does not state range of use. These systems do not include igniter leads.

A Wilson F/X 4-pad wireless system will cost you $700
range of use up to 5000 feet line of sight. I just took these two pics so there's not great, but you get the idea. they are also available in Pelican cases with aluminum faceplates, but the prices go up accordingly.
No license required. Includes power cords and igniter leads.
Everything you need except batteries. You'll need two 12volt batteries, one for the controller and the other for the pad-box.

There maybe other commercial wireless launch systems on the market, but these are the only ones that I know of which are actually legal to use here in the USA.

There were a couple of Chinese systems mentioned in an article in Sport Rocketry, but neither of them was actually legal to use in the USA. Transmisison frequencies and power levels both illegal for use in the USA. There are always home made systems being tossed around, but you get what you pay for, at least some of the time. And I'll be honest and say that yes, I sell systems. And I want to sell more systems. But anybody building a wireless launch system of dubious legality when it comes to actually using it, is damaging our hobby as a whole. We are always just one stupid event away from even more serious restrictions on this hobby. So please let's be careful.

And then there are the folks who take fireworks launch control systems and modify them for rocketry purposes. Unfortunately, these systems are designed to operate as a programmed sequence of individual igniters in timed sequences. The folks using them for flying rockets are bypassing those sequenced programs in order to use them for flying rockets. God help us if one of them is suddenly reset by someone who does not know what they are doing and it goes back into a programmed firing sequence that's stored in ROM memory. It would start firing pads in what would appear to be a random pattern till somebody figured out how to disable it.

If there are other legal commercial wireless launch systems out there, let us know please.

Brad

 

[Steveclay]

Everything thats available rocketry in the US to be available in the UK and at the same price.

 

[jqavins]

RocketRev, my club uses one of your systems, and I extend to you my complements. It is easy to set up and use, and is very reliable. And maybe not what shockie was talking about.

I can't speak for him, but what I took from his post, colored by my own experience no doubt, is a smaller system at an individual consumer level. A pad unit with a lantern battery and a hand held launch controller. A lot like any other battery-at-the-pad system, but without the wire. Expandable? Sure, let's add a second or a fourth pad unit and still only need one hand unit. And at a consumer level price, not much more than, say, a pair of walkie-talkies. (More, probably, just not much more. Does anybody still make walkie-talkies?)

 

[DeWain]

not to spoil the magic, but the "new" C5-3 is a full 2 Netwon-seconds less in power than the Original was. if you'd like I can post the NAR S&T from the original and the current and you can see the difference.

Yup, I know that the new C5-3 is not quite the same as the old "Super C", but it is close enough. More importantly, it is good to have black powder motors with a higher initial spike to boost heavier rockets. It would be ideal to have a motor with a higher sustained thrust as well as the initial spike. Of course, this would result in a shorter burn time, and it might not be possible to get a high-thrust C motor to fit in a standard 18mm case. The ideal for me would be to have a B14-0-like motor for a direct-staging booster.