What new things does the hobby want to see?

Help Support The Rocketry Forum:

jqavins

Joseph Avins
TRF Supporter
[I]t is good to have black powder motors with a higher initial spike to boost heavier rockets... The ideal for me would be to have a B14-0-like motor for a direct-staging booster.
How many of us are there saying "Bring back the B14 (especially the B14-0")? C'mon, Estes! Or a C5-0 would be just fine too. How hard can it be to leave the delay grain and ejection charge out of a C5-3?

prfesser

That is a calculated business tactic designed to trap folks who are not paying careful attention. When I encounter such a business I simply move on.
Happened to me on my last order to McMaster-Carr, a week ago. Some odds and ends in the cart, nothing urgent. Checked out and my eyes bulged; $50 of stuff and$45 for shipping?? Well, I'll need the stuff fairly soon anyway...paid. Turns out they charged me for next-day. I coulda waited a week or more...

And they shipped three phenolic tubes in two separate shipping tubes. All three would have easily fit into one tube. I apparently paid for that too.

Next time I'll be more careful. I like McMaster-Carr but assuming that I want next day shipping is not the way to go. Most places show a table of ground, 2nd day air, next day, same day, etc. prices, so I have a clear choice.

Best -- Terry

prfesser

How many of us are there saying "Bring back the B14 (especially the B14-0")? C'mon, Estes! Or a C5-0 would be just fine too. How hard can it be to leave the delay grain and ejection charge out of a C5-3?
Actually it might be slightly complicated. The delay provides strength--handling the pressure--- needed to prevent early blow-through. With that longer core (I assume, based on the thrust curve) it may take a little more propellant on top of that, to ensure that doesn't occur.

I do wonder why they don't bring back the B14-0. It was the ideal booster for windy days. I seem to recall that they always recommended that one or a 1/2A (or maybe the A8-0? Don't remember).

Best -- Terry

Walter Longburn

Well-Known Member
TRF Supporter
$50 of stuff and$45 for shipping??
Reminds me of when I ordered a 10ft. 1010 rail from McMaster-Carr. I couldn't see any estimate for shipping but I just ordered it and hoped for the best. The rail was $30 and I paid$74 for shipping.

It came on a Semi Truck

Last edited:

Nytrunner

Pop lugs, not drugs
TRF Supporter
I do wonder why they don't bring back the B14-0.
If I recall Narcon talks, it involved drilling the core(not just a mandrel die in the press. I wouldn't sign up to revive that practice either

dr wogz

Fly caster
Reminds me of when I ordered a 10ft. 1010 rail from McMaster-Carr. I couldn't see any estimate for shipping but I just ordered it and hoped for the best. The rail was $30 and I paid$74 for shipping.

It came on a Semi Truck
likely due to it being oversized. anything over 6 ft gets into freight charges!

Yeah, McMaster is great, as they have a tons of stuff, but they do get you sometimes. And being the usually 1st choice for prototyping production runs, once we like the part, it kinda gets 'into the system' and they end up being the prime supplier.. We can use them as a proto source, and as a reference, but our purchasing dept. have strict orders to source other places when qtys exceed a certain amount..

jqavins

Joseph Avins
TRF Supporter
Actually it might be slightly complicated. The delay provides strength--handling the pressure--- needed to prevent early blow-through. With that longer core (I assume, based on the thrust curve) it may take a little more propellant on top of that, to ensure that doesn't occur.

I do wonder why they don't bring back the B14-0. It was the ideal booster for windy days. I seem to recall that they always recommended that one or a 1/2A (or maybe the A8-0? Don't remember).
If I recall Narcon talks, it involved drilling the core (not just a mandrel die in the press). I wouldn't sign up to revive that practice either.
I stand - corrected? Educated?

Still, with the number of potential or actual staged designs that get a little heavy (lifting the second, sometimes third engine) and need help reaching safe rod exit speed, I fervently hope Estes will come up with a way. Modify the press process so a mandrel can be used or devise a safer drilling process to make B14s? Carefully engineer the thin clay cap or press pressure on the powder to make a C5-0 work? Or something else entirely to make just some sort of B or C, high initial thrust booster motor. (The high thrust can be the usual spike then drop low like the C5 does, or can just be a really short burn, just as long it get's that heavy stager off the rod safely.)

So, as to "What new things does the hobby want to see?" I retract C5-0 or B14-0 and just say a high thrust, 18×70 mm booster motor.

JStarStar

Well-Known Member
TRF Supporter
Long burning low power. Say 10 seconds "C" impulse. I'd put one in a Big Bertha.
A C1-5??

The flip side would be a core burner; the return of the legendary B14 or maybe, I dunno, a C18?

jqavins

Joseph Avins
TRF Supporter
Far easier said than done. In larger engines, even 18 mm, APCP lets one get about one more letter in a given size than BP, as we all know. But composites require a core hole, which can be only so small. By the time you've taken the core out of a 13 mm grain, how much propellant is left? I'll bet it's not a B's worth. (But I'm not sufficiently confident in this assessment to bet heavily.)

OverTheTop

Well-Known Member
TRF Supporter
I think I remember reading in a book recently that the required area ratio will lead to a very narrow throat, although the book was commenting on end-burners at the time but I think the same might apply. This can introduce tolerance issues and there is an increased chance of CATO due to a chunk of propellant blocking the nozzle.

Let me know if I got that wrong Prof .

NOLA_BAR

Well-Known Member
Actually it might be slightly complicated. The delay provides strength--handling the pressure--- needed to prevent early blow-through. With that longer core (I assume, based on the thrust curve) it may take a little more propellant on top of that, to ensure that doesn't occur.

I do wonder why they don't bring back the B14-0. It was the ideal booster for windy days. I seem to recall that they always recommended that one or a 1/2A (or maybe the A8-0? Don't remember).

Best -- Terry
Didn’t the Estes Farside/Farside-X require a B14 in the first stage? I know Semroc has the retro-repro, but a B6 just doesn’t seem adequate.

jqavins

Joseph Avins
TRF Supporter
And I confess that part of why I harp on it is that I've got a design of my own mostly built that I won't be able to launch without one. I'm (in my head) redesigning it to use a D12-0, which will mean more than just changing the motor mount.

neil_w

Marginally Stable
TRF Supporter
And I confess that part of why I harp on it is that I've got a design of my own mostly built that I won't be able to launch without one. I'm (in my head) redesigning it to use a D12-0, which will mean more than just changing the motor mount.
I’m in the exact same situation, minus the “mostly built” part. Would very much like to have an 18 mm booster with more kick.

jqavins

Joseph Avins
TRF Supporter
Yeah, I dreamed it up, designed it in RS and some Visio sketches, ordered custom centering rings and 34" long coupler stock (I needed a six inch coupler), got it nearly built, then I got more sophisticated in my design knowledge and realized I should check the rod exit speed. D'OH!

GuyNoir

Well-Known Member
Didn’t the Estes Farside/Farside-X require a B14 in the first stage?
Maybe it did, but the clone Farside X I flew in Classic Model at NARAM-60 worked fine on an initial C6-0 booster.

dr wogz

Fly caster
Maybe some more 'spacey / sci-fi / fantasy' builds; things from Estes in the early 80's like the Andromeda, asteroid killer, etc..

Or more like the Canaroc rockets.. Or even the early Quest offerings with unusual shapes; cones & oval BT rockets..

Dare I say it: rockets that took a while to build [and not just 'assemble': massive parts count, tube-on-tube / tube-in-tube builds, cutting & fitting of parts,

But as I think about it, we do have a fair amount already..

neil_w

Marginally Stable
TRF Supporter
Dare I say it: rockets that took a while to build [and not just 'assemble': massive parts count, tube-on-tube / tube-in-tube builds, cutting & fitting of parts,
Two words: scratch build. If you don't want to design your own, there are plenty of designs to be had out there, ready to go.

dr wogz

Fly caster
I do (did?) a fair bit of scratch building (not just rockets!) I guess I'd like to see more of the complex 'Estes' type kits but in a larger format; say MPR or HPR..

Neil, you are a bit of an inspiration in that regards!

neil_w

Marginally Stable
TRF Supporter
I do (did?) a fair bit of scratch building (not just rockets!) I guess I'd like to see more of the complex 'Estes' type kits but in a larger format; say MPR or HPR..
In other words, you want Q-modeling back.

Other than that, Sirius seems to have the best offerings right now in that regard, although their pace of new kit introductions is... well, just about zero.

Estes really doesn't seem to want to go in that direction. All the PS2 kits veer towards the very simple. I'm guessing they just don't sell well enough to justify the investment. Smaller vendors can survive on smaller volumes.

dr wogz

Fly caster
Exactly! But I do recognize that this is a special / small section of what we want / are interested in.. There are a few out there currently doing this type of thing. (And maybe I typed before I thinked (thunk?))

Don't forget Fliskits kits!! loved his stuff, and am waiting for the new owners to get fully back up to speed.

Might also be nice if TLP came back (or someone to start offering some nice scale missiles & such; update them to be MPR (and not the delicate models they originally were..) )

NOLA_BAR

Well-Known Member
I do (did?) a fair bit of scratch building (not just rockets!) I guess I'd like to see more of the complex 'Estes' type kits but in a larger format; say MPR or HPR..

Neil, you are a bit of an inspiration in that regards!
eRockets possibly sometime this year with “ProSeries” (no longer SLS) upscales. The did show prototypes for upscale Orbital Transport, Blue Bird Zero, and Mars Snooper.

dr wogz

Fly caster
I guess I gotta get out more!

NOLA_BAR

Well-Known Member
Also a return of RSR/DFR Technologies. It would nice to have a few of those kits available again.

Cape Byron

The BAR formerly known as Skippy-2
TRF Supporter
Far easier said than done. In larger engines, even 18 mm, APCP lets one get about one more letter in a given size than BP, as we all know. But composites require a core hole, which can be only so small. By the time you've taken the core out of a 13 mm grain, how much propellant is left? I'll bet it's not a B's worth. (But I'm not sufficiently confident in this assessment to bet heavily.)
AeroTech have said there will be no 13mm Q-Jets.

I'm undeniably a 13mm fan. Very underrated motors.

Rocketjunkie

38mm and 54mm dual-thrust motors would be nice. CTI has the K590 54/6G and L640 54/6XL, but some I's, J's, and smaller K's would be just the ticket for some nice MD flights.
Aerotech has the K76, K375, and I59.
How about mid power dual thrust? E, F, and G motors with extra large initial kicks would be good.

Not to mention input from OR and RS.
The CTI G107 is a dual thrust in 24 mm. I don't see any 29 and 38 mm dual thrust. All sizes have long burns, either moon burners or Mellow propellant.
Far easier said than done. In larger engines, even 18 mm, APCP lets one get about one more letter in a given size than BP, as we all know. But composites require a core hole, which can be only so small. By the time you've taken the core out of a 13 mm grain, how much propellant is left? I'll bet it's not a B's worth. (But I'm not sufficiently confident in this assessment to bet heavily.)
Apogee used to have a 13 mm C6. White Lightning propellant moon burner. https://www.thrustcurve.org/motors/Apogee/C6/

msjohnso

Active Member
Far easier said than done. In larger engines, even 18 mm, APCP lets one get about one more letter in a given size than BP, as we all know. But composites require a core hole, which can be only so small. By the time you've taken the core out of a 13 mm grain, how much propellant is left? I'll bet it's not a B's worth. (But I'm not sufficiently confident in this assessment to bet heavily.)
Apogee formerly sold 13mm composite B7 motors (I still have one or two, now relegated to my 'classic motor collection) but as others have noted, the burning surface/nozzle area ratio meant that the nozzle was *tiny* - the igniters often didn't make contact, or broke in insertion - I once gave up on a B7 after 5 or 6 misfires! Great motors if you could get them to light, but not user-friendly.

jqavins

Joseph Avins
TRF Supporter
Well, it's good I didn't bet heavily.