An "R"-powered rocket build

[Rail Dawg]

Ok thanks guys.

Chuck C.

 

[Steve Shannon]

On a side note I’m trying to find more information on the Virginia Tech Class 3 incident at the BALLS launch?

Exactly what happened and what mistakes were made?

Chuck C.

They tried to assemble their rocket while their staging electronics were powered up. Their sustainer lit while horizontal, in the middle of eight students. It shot off the rail, dug into the playa, and catoed. Had it catoed in the middle of the students there’s a very good chance it would have been fatal for some of them. PM me if you want to talk about it.

 

[Rail Dawg]

They tried to assemble their rocket while their staging electronics were powered up. Their sustainer lit while horizontal, in the middle of eight students. It shot off the rail, dug into the playa, and catoed. Had it catoed in the middle of the students there’s a very good chance it would have been fatal for some of them. PM me if you want to talk about it.

Steve thanks for that explanation. I had not heard of this incident as I’m just now getting back into the big rockets.

It makes more sense now the caution I was seeing over our project. Any organization when faced with a potential accident must step back and look at procedures.

This rocket may very well be at the next BALLS launch. I’ll go through all the right channels and show just how safe we run our projects.

Don’t want to burn any bridges. I love the Black Rock and in light of my new learning today I understand now the increased focus.

Thanks again Steve.

Chuck C.

 

[Ez2cDave]

On a side note I’m trying to find more information on the Virginia Tech Class 3 incident at the BALLS launch?

Exactly what happened and what mistakes were made?

Chuck C.

Chuck,

I found this info . . .

https://www.rocketryforum.com/threa...mpt-at-a-suborbital-space-shot.145647/page-13

https://www.reddit.com/r/rocketry/comments/9n3h68/tripoli_bans_all_university_ex_launches_until_2019

https://forum.ausrocketry.com/viewtopic.php?t=6167&start=15

https://www.facebook.com/orbitallaunchatVT/posts/678904092496391

https://www.facebook.com/groups/cjscjn/permalink/10157800590919046/

https://olvt.org/

https://olvt.org/the-fleet/

Dave F.

 

[Steve Shannon]

Steve thanks for that explanation. I had not heard of this incident as I’m just now getting back into the big rockets.

It makes more sense now the caution I was seeing over our project. Any organization when faced with a potential accident must step back and look at procedures.

This rocket may very well be at the next BALLS launch. I’ll go through all the right channels and show just how safe we run our projects.

Don’t want to burn any bridges. I love the Black Rock and in light of my new learning today I understand now the increased focus.

Thanks again Steve.

Chuck C.

Thanks, Chuck. It was very frightening.

 

[RocketFeller]

Steve thanks for that explanation. I had not heard of this incident as I’m just now getting back into the big rockets.

It makes more sense now the caution I was seeing over our project. Any organization when faced with a potential accident must step back and look at procedures.

This rocket may very well be at the next BALLS launch. I’ll go through all the right channels and show just how safe we run our projects.

Don’t want to burn any bridges. I love the Black Rock and in light of my new learning today I understand now the increased focus.

Thanks again Steve.

Chuck C.

I certainly hope you do launch at BALLS!

Admittedly my motivation is somewhat selfish - I really want to see this thing launch. I would be willing to wager that a lot of other people following this thread would also like to see the R Rocket fly. While some might make it out to a FAR launch, a whole lot more would see it at BALLS.

Either way it should be awesome!

 

[Ez2cDave]

Thanks, Chuck. It was very frightening.

Are there any video's of the accident ?

Dave F.

 

[Steve Shannon]

Are there any video's of the accident ?

Dave F.

Not that I know of. What do you want to know?

 

[Rail Dawg]

I certainly hope you do launch at BALLS!

Admittedly my motivation is somewhat selfish - I really want to see this thing launch. I would be willing to wager that a lot of other people following this thread would also like to see the R Rocket fly. While some might make it out to a FAR launch, a whole lot more would see it at BALLS.

Either way it should be awesome!

Thanks for that Dan. Please come up and introduce yourself!

Should be a really nice flight. We plan on making a test flight at a remote site to ensure all goes well at BALLS.

Looking forward to this build.

Chuck C.

 

[Theory]

I would be willing to wager that a lot of other people following this thread would also like to see the R Rocket fly.

Count me as a part of that group. I wish this project much success

 

[Rail Dawg]

Count me as a part of that group. I wish this project much success

Thanks!

Chuck C.

 

[Rail Dawg]

Well the first 2 parts of the 11.67" G-12 airframe and couplers have been rolled and should arrive here within 10 days.

We can then get started!

Also the DOM (Drawn Over Mandrel) 7.5" ID 9 1/2 ft motor casing has been picked up. She's a beauty!

Have an expert going to work this casing with upper enclosure, lower thrust ring and a nozzle carrier. Also ensure it is 100% uniform on the ID so the motor liner can be inserted with no binding.

Starting to come together. Am excited about this rocket as it's going to be very tough and should be able to fly several times.



Chuck C.

 

[Theory]

^^^^^^ #HELLYEA!!! ^^^^^^^

 

[Ez2cDave]

Not that I know of. What do you want to know?

Steve,

I was hoping to see the actual chain of events leading up to the accident, in real time.

Dave F.

 

[Ez2cDave]

Well the first 2 parts of the 11.67" G-12 airframe and couplers have been rolled and should arrive here within 10 days.

We can then get started!

Also the DOM (Drawn Over Mandrel) 7.5" ID 9 1/2 ft motor casing has been picked up. She's a beauty!

Have an expert going to work this casing with upper enclosure, lower thrust ring and a nozzle carrier. Also ensure it is 100% uniform on the ID so the motor liner can be inserted with no binding.

Starting to come together. Am excited about this rocket as it's going to be very tough and should be able to fly several times.

Chuck C.

Chuck,

Seeing that section of Blue Tube 2.0 makes me "nervous" . . . Maybe I'm being overcautious, but my "radar" clicked on, when I saw it next to the other components.

Dave F.

 

[RocketFeller]

Thanks for that Dan. Please come up and introduce yourself!

Should be a really nice flight. We plan on making a test flight at a remote site to ensure all goes well at BALLS.

Looking forward to this build.

Chuck C.

Absolutely!

This will be my first trip down to Black Rock, I’m really looking forward to it. I’ll be with the guys from Team NUMB (keg- launchers extraordinaire) and will definitely search you out if you’re there.

I hope to get at least one flight out of the upscale Dragonfly that our Rock-It Girls built. At most launches it drops jaws for its sheer size - at BALLS it will be a low and slow midsized rocket...



The burly looking guy on the right is your fin can manufacturer.

 

[Steve Shannon]

Steve,

I was hoping to see the actual chain of events leading up to the accident, in real time.

Dave F.

View attachment 372402

There was a good description of it on the Tripoli Forum that we prepared from descriptions provided by the students. The summary is that they used an acceleration triggered timer for staging and then inserted a parachute using a sledgehammer and wooden block. There was no switch for the electronics so the electronics were directly connected to the battery while the rocket was horizontal, in clear violation of the Safety Codes. The timer triggered during the pounding and lit the sustainer motor (P or Q research motor). The students were all clustered around it trying to get it assembled to launch when it ignited. They reported seeing smoke jetting from various ports and some of them turned to run.
I was maybe a quarter mile away. A couple of the guys I was with were just on their way to check and see how the students were doing because it was getting late in the day for the high altitude waiver. They had just gotten into the truck when I heard a loud whump from the students’ direction. Others said they heard the motor launch, but all I remember hearing was that sickening whump sound. When I looked toward them all I could see was a cloud of smoke and dust with a cluster of students. The guys I was with took off in the truck. We all feared the worst, but fortunately the injuries were very minor.

 

[Ez2cDave]

The summary is that they used an acceleration triggered timer for staging and then inserted a parachute using a sledgehammer and wooden block.

Steve,

While reading your reply, when I reached this point. a shiver went up my spine . . .

I don't know what the "official line" is on this incident but, the more I read and hear, I am placing more blame on Virginia Tech than the students themselves.

It appears that they received little to no guidance or direct supervision by knowledgeable parties. This might be overkill but, perhaps a "TARC-like" mentor-ship program, using experienced Class 3 rocketeers may be in order, as the instructors appear incompetent in this area.

The students are at the mercy of personnel, whom they trust and believe to be properly-trained, while unwittingly putting their lives at risk !

Dave F.

 

[Andrew_ASC]

Lets’ not de-rail this awesome build thread with VT accidents.

I personally can’t wait to see pictures of that custom fin can whenever it’s done.

 

[Steve Shannon]

Steve,

While reading your reply, when I reached this point. a shiver went up my spine . . .

I don't know what the "official line" is on this incident but, the more I read and hear, I am placing more blame on Virginia Tech than the students themselves.

It appears that they received little to no guidance or direct supervision by knowledgeable parties. This might be overkill but, perhaps a "TARC-like" mentor-ship program, using experienced Class 3 rocketeers may be in order, as the instructors appear incompetent in this area.

The students are at the mercy of personnel, whom they trust and believe to be properly-trained, while unwittingly putting their lives at risk !

Dave F.

View attachment 372426

Dave,
There’s always enough blame to go around, including that which we (Tripoli) have recognized in our relationship with students. There’s other threads on TRF that have cussed and discussed this. I’m inclined to agree with Andrew that I’ve distracted from this project more than I should have, but we are requiring mentoring/oversight for future student projects. Virginia Tech is taking a very active part in helping prevent future incidents.

 

[Rail Dawg]

Chuck,

Seeing that section of Blue Tube 2.0 makes me "nervous" . . . Maybe I'm being overcautious, but my "radar" clicked on, when I saw it next to the other components.

Dave F.

Not to worry the blue tube is only for a test fit which was spot-on.

The liners will be top-quality and custom-made.

Thanks!

Chuck C.

 

[Rail Dawg]

We made an internal design change that I really like.

Imagine a 24" coupler with 3/4" birch CR's on each end. The CR's are the same OD as the coupler.

In between the CR's in the coupler are (8) 3/4" birch stringers that can be fitted perfectly. The entire assembly is made outside of the rocket and glassed over. Each coupler assembly is "stacked" into the rocket with the top of one assembly CR touching the bottom of the next lower assembly CR. Pro-Set "super-toughened" epoxy will be used to secure the coupler and CR's to the airframe.

In effect the entire bottom half of the rocket will have coupler assemblies it's entire length.

I like this idea as a lot of work can be done outside the rocket and you're not reaching in trying to glass something 2 ft in lol.

Thing is going to be rock-solid.

Chuck C.

 

[Rail Dawg]

Dave,
There’s always enough blame to go around, including that which we (Tripoli) have recognized in our relationship with students. There’s other threads on TRF that have cussed and discussed this. I’m inclined to agree with Andrew that I’ve distracted from this project more than I should have, but we are requiring mentoring/oversight for future student projects. Virginia Tech is taking a very active part in helping prevent future incidents.

Steve a quick detour to discuss the VA Tech issue is fine.

It's actually an important part of this "R"-powered rocket.

Hammering in chutes... live electronics during a load... c'mon we're better than that!

I appreciate your inputs.

Chuck C.

 

[mccordmw]

We made an internal design change that I really like.

Imagine a 24" coupler with 3/4" birch CR's on each end. The CR's are the same OD as the coupler.

In between the CR's in the coupler are (8) 3/4" birch stringers that can be fitted perfectly. The entire assembly is made outside of the rocket and glassed over. Each coupler assembly is "stacked" into the rocket with the top of one assembly CR touching the bottom of the next lower assembly CR. Pro-Set "super-toughened" epoxy will be used to secure the coupler and CR's to the airframe.

In effect the entire bottom half of the rocket will have coupler assemblies it's entire length.

I like this idea as a lot of work can be done outside the rocket and you're not reaching in trying to glass something 2 ft in lol.

Thing is going to be rock-solid.

Chuck C.

That sounds very similar to how I built my L3. The thrust forces were supported from the thrust plate up through stringers and centering rings all the way up to the bulkhead of the payload bay. Made it super strong.

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1i4anunZXsiG7dyIP78nmFN7WJrSK-7uAgVvensHU9ok

 

[Rail Dawg]

That sounds very similar to how I built my L3. The thrust forces were supported from the thrust plate up through stringers and centering rings all the way up to the bulkhead of the payload bay. Made it super strong.

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1i4anunZXsiG7dyIP78nmFN7WJrSK-7uAgVvensHU9ok

That's a nice rocket Mark.

Wish I could say the idea was mine but it wasn't. Am fortunate to have an actual rocket engineer guy tweaking my design ideas. Plus you look at big rocket builders and see what has worked well for them.

You guys on here have been very helpful in steering me in the right direction.

I've always been a firm believer that the group is better than the individual. Am always ready to change design when a better one emerges.

Luckily the build will start soon and it's going to be fun to put all these ideas into the rocket. Bottom line is we want it safe... and strong.

Definitely don't want it single-use.

Already thinking about an "S" rocket lol.

Chuck C.

 

[Ez2cDave]

Not to worry the blue tube is only for a test fit which was spot-on.

The liners will be top-quality and custom-made.

Thanks!

Chuck C.

Chuck,

Anytime . . . Whenever I see a concern, I will voice it.

Great to hear that precision component fitments are being achieved . . . Recovery is still the major concern, from my perspective !

Dave F.

 

[Ez2cDave]

We made an internal design change that I really like.

Imagine a 24" coupler with 3/4" birch CR's on each end. The CR's are the same OD as the coupler.

In between the CR's in the coupler are (8) 3/4" birch stringers that can be fitted perfectly. The entire assembly is made outside of the rocket and glassed over. Each coupler assembly is "stacked" into the rocket with the top of one assembly CR touching the bottom of the next lower assembly CR. Pro-Set "super-toughened" epoxy will be used to secure the coupler and CR's to the airframe.

In effect the entire bottom half of the rocket will have coupler assemblies it's entire length.

I like this idea as a lot of work can be done outside the rocket and you're not reaching in trying to glass something 2 ft in lol.

Thing is going to be rock-solid.

Chuck C.

Chuck,

I like the "modular" approach you are taking . . . Adapt & Overcome !

Dave F.

 

[Ez2cDave]

That's a nice rocket Mark.

Wish I could say the idea was mine but it wasn't. Am fortunate to have an actual rocket engineer guy tweaking my design ideas. Plus you look at big rocket builders and see what has worked well for them.

You guys on here have been very helpful in steering me in the right direction.

I've always been a firm believer that the group is better than the individual. Am always ready to change design when a better one emerges.

Luckily the build will start soon and it's going to be fun to put all these ideas into the rocket. Bottom line is we want it safe... and strong.

Definitely don't want it single-use.

Already thinking about an "S" rocket lol.

Chuck C.

Chuck,

From my personal perspective, I have no "agenda" in this project, other than safety, reliability, & success . . .

My "job description", if you will, is to analyze data / situations, develop possible solutions, submit them to other team members for evaluation / testing and, if they are viable, submit them to you for consideration.

The "Steely-Eyed Missile Men" have your back.

We analyze, adapt, and overcome . . . Because failure is not an option !

Dave F.

 

[Rail Dawg]

Chuck,

From my personal perspective, I have no "agenda" in this project, other than safety, reliability, & success . . .

My "job description", if you will, is to analyze data / situations, develop possible solutions, submit them to other team members for evaluation / testing and, if they are viable, submit them to you for consideration.

The "Steely-Eyed Missile Men" have your back.

We analyze, adapt, and overcome . . . Because failure is not an option !

Dave F.

I really appreciate all your inputs Dave!

Would like to see you out at BALLS if you could make it.

Chuck C.

 

[Theory]

We made an internal design change that I really like.

Imagine a 24" coupler with 3/4" birch CR's on each end. The CR's are the same OD as the coupler.

In between the CR's in the coupler are (8) 3/4" birch stringers that can be fitted perfectly. The entire assembly is made outside of the rocket and glassed over. Each coupler assembly is "stacked" into the rocket with the top of one assembly CR touching the bottom of the next lower assembly CR. Pro-Set "super-toughened" epoxy will be used to secure the coupler and CR's to the airframe.

In effect the entire bottom half of the rocket will have coupler assemblies it's entire length.

I like this idea as a lot of work can be done outside the rocket and you're not reaching in trying to glass something 2 ft in lol.

I like this modular design as well. especially as you will have every opportunity to execute some solid composite work and cure each piece individually and under optimal conditions.

also, and I may be wrong here, but each section will in fact be a bond between a pair of 3/4" CRs correct? from the aft it would be: thrust plate - 'CR, coupler, CR' - 'CR, coupler, CR' - 'CR, coupler, CR' etc. with each 'group' being its own fully bonded sub assembly. correct?

the only real challenge I foresee is actually inserting and properly bonding each section into the airframe as there will be substantial friction imposed by the epoxy on each coupler section. I am sure that we have all had aspirations of sliding a coupler in an airframe for added strength only to find that it "wouldn't go" any further. its a pisser on a 3" rocket but a killer when dealing with the materials and overall time & effort of your project.

again, really dig the modular design