Starting the LEUP process

[mrmonteith]

Dang, well for me the magazine is the cheapest. Partially because I'll be using inside storage and building my own magazines. I'm actually contemplating building some to sell. I haven't tackled the state stuff but I think it's a lot less hassle here.

Michael

 

[UhClem]

I looked at the Colorado explosives regulations and was surprised to see that the rocket motor exemption stops at F motors. (less than 17.92 pound-seconds total impulse)

 

[Doc_Russell]

Dang, you'd think with all that open space out there in CO that it'd be easier! I feel for you UhClem... NC is a lot easier.

DR

 

[UhClem]

Dang, you'd think with all that open space out there in CO that it'd be easier! I feel for you UhClem... NC is a lot easier.

DR

Actually, I am in Texas. Which so far has no explosives laws and I hope it will stay that way.

 

[constevens]

I looked at the Colorado explosives regulations and was surprised to see that the rocket motor exemption stops at F motors. (less than 17.92 pound-seconds total impulse)

Yup. Its one of the issues here and why getting legal is more issues in some places then others.

The ATFE is starting to become more "in" with the local regs. At my Inspection yesterday it was pointed out that I must get local permits and follow local laws. Now they dont enforce them but it seems to me they are communicating now and could easily inform the local regs.

Good for you to not have much local regs in Texas..

 

[Handeman]

I'm planning on starting the process in the next few months in Virginia. Here they don't use the NFPA codes. They use the Virgina Statewide Fire Prevention Codes which are based on the International Fire Codes.

I have an attached garage.

I'll start with my local fire marshall.

Any suggestions to help get started?

 

[UhClem]

I'm planning on starting the process in the next few months in Virginia. Here they don't use the NFPA codes. They use the Virgina Statewide Fire Prevention Codes which are based on the International Fire Codes.

I have an attached garage.

I'll start with my local fire marshal.

Any suggestions to help get started?

When I researched the fire code for Arlington (not that one, the one in Texas) I found that it was based on the IFC. Chapter 33 which deals with explosives explicitly references the NFPA codes for rocketry.

I think I put something on my web site....

https://home.earthlink.net/~david.schultz/regulation/arlington.html

 

[constevens]

I'm planning on starting the process in the next few months in Virginia. Here they don't use the NFPA codes. They use the Virgina Statewide Fire Prevention Codes which are based on the International Fire Codes.

I have an attached garage.

I'll start with my local fire marshall.

Any suggestions to help get started?

Here is a Great reference to help you. A big Thanks to Tfish for doing it!!

https://xtratime.net/LEUP/leup.htm#GetStarted




States will be different. So be sure to ask lots of question of those in your area that have them as well. They will be the best resources you can contact as they should be more on the In with your local area stuff. Again look at the guide in the link above and use it. Its a big help.


Here are a couple more links I recomend as well.

One is Q and A of Rocketry from the ATFE

https://www.atf.gov/explarson/0504rocketryqa.pdf

One I also HIGHLY recommend is reading the ATFE Orange book and familiarize yourself with it. This is what the Agents you will be dealing with will be going off of.

https://www.atf.treas.gov/explarson/fedexplolaw/2007edition/index.htm

 

[Handeman]

When I researched the fire code for Arlington (not that one, the one in Texas) I found that it was based on the IFC. Chapter 33 which deals with explosives explicitly references the NFPA codes for rocketry.

I think I put something on my web site....

https://home.earthlink.net/~david.schultz/regulation/arlington.html

I read through that and like you put on your site, if you limit yourself to 1lb of BP you're OK. It's the type 4 magazine and 50lbs of APCP in an attached garage that's the questions. It looks like the interpretation of 3301.1.4 vs. 3301.2.1 is going to be the rub.

 

[Handeman]

States will be different. So be sure to ask lots of question of those in your area that have them as well. They will be the best resources you can contact as they should be more on the In with your local area stuff. Again look at the guide in the link above and use it. Its a big help.

Thanks for the links. I had some of these, but the rest were great.

The problems with most of these "Getting Started" postings is that they are dealing with NFPA and Virginia doesn't use the NFPA codes.

Guess I just have to get out and talk to the fire marshal.

 

[constevens]

Thanks for the links. I had some of these, but the rest were great.

The problems with most of these "Getting Started" postings is that they are dealing with NFPA and Virginia doesn't use the NFPA codes.

Guess I just have to get out and talk to the fire marshal.

Most cases even where NFPA is not adopted you possibly need to start with the regulatory group in the state. Not always known as the Fire Marshal. Like here in Colorado the state has its regulations of a type I,II and III permits you have to get. They were separate from the Fire Marshal. They might be able to provide you with a permit or variance that will get you through that hang up in the fire code or whatever it is. Now, Its possible they will need you to get the approval or notification of your local law enforcement as well as the Fire Marshal but you may find an avenue to go with to help you along. Besides that ATFE will require you to have the Local permits (if they exist) if you are applying for the Federal.

 

[melsman]

Time for an update!...

My local Fire Marshall stopped by yesterday for his inspection and to give me a letter of authorization. He wanted to see my NFPA 704 (fireman's diamond) on my garage man-door and my Type 4 magazine. After that, we just chatted about hobby stuff. Turns out, he and his son are getting into R/C aircraft, which I've been involved with for a long time (my garage is full of helicopters, planes, gliders, and, of course, rockets), so we had a lot to talk about.

It also turns out that I'm the first guy in the city that has gone through this process for high-power rocket motor storage. So, the local Fire Marshall had to go through a learning process. Tony "tfish"'s Code Analysis came in very handy to help them understand the issues.

So - Phase one finished. Now, on to phase two (CA Pyro Class III - application nearly complete) and phase three (LEUP - application nearly complete).

Ashley

 

[melsman]

Time for another update -

I received my fifth and final recommendation letter for my California Pyro III yesterday (thanks, Dave!) and now I can send in both of my applications - the Pyro III and the LEUP.

They're going out in today's mail. Now the waiting begins...

Ashley

 

[melsman]

...and the process continues!

Got a call from my local BATF agent today. Very friendly, cordial fellow. He's going to make a visit next Wednesday. He's had some experience with the rocketry-side of the LEUP, so I'm optimistic.

As for the CA Pyro II, I've talked to Vonne at the OSFM twice now (other times she wasn't at her desk). She told me that my application had gone through and that my manual was on the way. That was over two weeks ago. She also mentioned that all of the Fourth of July Firework certs were hitting her at the same time, so my stuff could be bogged in the mire.

But luckily, AT got their Mojave Green reloads certed here in CA! Yee haa!

Ashley

 

[melsman]

Time for an update!

Just had my BATF interview. The agent was very professional and friendly with a lot of good information. Nice guy. Seemed sincerely interested in helping. Very positive experience. He approved my Merlin's Missiles Type IV magazine with no problem. Should be seeing my permit in about two weeks.

Ashley

 

[tfish]

Ashley, See, it wasn't so hard. I'd like to know your 'time line' once you get your LEUP and CA Pyro.

Tony

 

[melsman]

Will do...

The agent also gave me some insight on the application forms and mistakes we commonly make, so I'll pass that along as well. He was very knowledgeable and had been with the BATF for 25 years. Also he mentioned that the ATF was moving to one type of user permit rather than four types. They are phasing this in soon so it's possible that my permit will simply be an "Explosive User Permit" (EUP) - no more LEUP, HEUP, FWUP, etc.

Ashley

 

[UhClem]

The regulations changed in 2005 eliminating the requirement to upgrade your permit in order to purchase a different class of explosives. You do not have to wait until the ATF changes the permits to do this. You can purchase any type of explosive with a type 34 permit. But you will need the appropriate storage.

As late as last spring the ATF explosive licensing center was telling me that they were not changing the permits. Which contradicted the 2005 change and clear language in their December 2005 explosives newsletter.

https://www.atf.gov/regulations/final-interim/atf_5.pdf

https://www.atf.gov/explarson/newsletter/dec2005explosivesindustry.pdf

I am afraid that I might have over reacted by calling one of them an idiot.

 

[Markw]

Should be seeing my permit in about two weeks.

If you get it in two weeks I would be impressed!

 

[melsman]

... prepare to be impressed!

The LEUP was processed on March 17 and sent to me on Mar. 18. I received the LEUP on March 22.

So - It's taken right at two months for the BATF to process, interview, and send me my LEUP. (1/25/08 to 3/22/08)

I haven't heard anything from the State on my Pyro III...

Ashley

 

[Bravo52]

I guess the next question for everyone is what is the annual tax for all the permits? It is my understanding the LEUP is $100 a year..........

v/r
Bravo

 

[constevens]

I guess the next question for everyone is what is the annual tax for all the permits? It is my understanding the LEUP is $100 a year..........

v/r
Bravo

No Annual charge for the permit. They are all a 3 year term with a renewal at the end of that 3 year. The renewal cost is normally half of what the intial cost was. so for a LEUP your intial would be $100.00 and in 3 years your renewal would be $50.00

In my Case as that I have a dealers permit it would be $200.00 initial and $100.00 renewal in 3 years.

 

[eastvolt]

If you get it in two weeks I would be impressed!

Actually, here in NJ, one of the most regulated states in the country as far as this stuff goes including firearms, it took about one month from the time i submitted my application to the time i received permits in the mail. Very fast!

Dan

 

[uncle_vanya]

The regulations changed in 2005 eliminating the requirement to upgrade your permit in order to purchase a different class of explosives. You do not have to wait until the ATF changes the permits to do this. You can purchase any type of explosive with a type 34 permit. But you will need the appropriate storage.

As late as last spring the ATF explosive licensing center was telling me that they were not changing the permits. Which contradicted the 2005 change and clear language in their December 2005 explosives newsletter.

https://www.atf.gov/regulations/final-interim/atf_5.pdf

https://www.atf.gov/explarson/newsletter/dec2005explosivesindustry.pdf

I am afraid that I might have over reacted by calling one of them an idiot.

I got a slightly different story from my agent. She said that it does not require a permit change but that I cannot purchase classes of explosives that I do not have storage magazines designated for. In other words, since I have only Low explosives magazines available currently I am limited to purchasing the low explosives.

Furthermore they confirmed that they still want the info on what explosives license you are seeking and they are still issuing the permits with this designation on them... oy!

 

[quickburst]

... prepare to be impressed!

The LEUP was processed on March 17 and sent to me on Mar. 18. I received the LEUP on March 22.

So - It's taken right at two months for the BATF to process, interview, and send me my LEUP. (1/25/08 to 3/22/08)

I haven't heard anything from the State on my Pyro III...

Ashley

Congratulations! The LEUP Process isn't as difficult as it's made out to be.

Be sure to send a copy to your favorite Vendors, and I'm hoping I'm on that list.

 

[melsman]

Time for another update...

Last time, on "Getting Legal in California", our hero was anxiously awaiting his documentation so that he could take the California Pyro III exam - something that is necessary to have in California if you want to fly HPR. The Feds had proven to be much more organized and friendly and an LEUP was already well in hand. However, the Pyro III license was proving to be a more difficult nut to crack...

I finally received my authorization to take the Pyro III exam. Turns out that it's only given twice a month, on Wednesdays. So, next Wednesday, 5/7 @ 9:00AM, is my date and time. I'm looking forward to the 4.5 hour drive down and back...

Ashley

 

[getoutside3274]

Man, I hate asking dumb questions but you know what they say...:rotflol:

I have been reading through several posts and many of the links that others have provided, many thanks to all.

I live in a condo so the LEUP process stops there. I understand contingency storage but I don't know anyone close by that I could ask.

So, could I apply for a LEUP, storing the magazine at someone's house that doesn't have a LEUP, or would they have to apply for a LEUP and then I would apply for contingency storage at their location?

I'm am fairly certian it is the later but I swear I saw a post that someone did the first option.

 

[Necromancer]

So, could I apply for a LEUP, storing the magazine at someone's house that doesn't have a LEUP, or would they have to apply for a LEUP and then I would apply for contingency storage at their location?

The magazine can be stored at someone else's house and they don't need to have an LEUP. However, i personally wouldn't recommended someone else store your magazine based on contigency storage inside their residence. I think thats just asking too much.

I store my magazine at someone else property, but its a farm and located in one of the out buildings there, so no contigency required.

 

[getoutside3274]

Thanks Necromancer, I was thinking of my Dad's place. He has a shed in the back so it would be seperate from the house.

 

[melsman]

... and the test is DONE!

50 T/F questions - all from the CCR Chapter 6 Article 18 section. I passed with a 100% (yes... I'm going to brag ). So now I'm waiting on Von to send me my newly-minted license.

Thanks to all of the guys who helped with my references and to the Lunarwiki folks who put together the study guide. Very helpful.

Ashley