Starting the LEUP process

[melsman]

Hello All,

******* EDIT UPDATE 5/7/08 **************

I decided to edit this original thread-starter to summarize the information I found on this "journey" to get my LEUP and my California Pyro III.

First of all, regarding the LEUP, it's not that difficult to do. It wasn't that big of a deal!

It costs $100 for the first three year permit, and a $50 renewal after that.

As you'll see (if you read further) that it took me two months to get my LEUP once I submitted the application.

You don't have to have an LEUP to fly high power, but it makes it a lot easier. If you don't have an LEUP, you'll have to fly under someone who has one. You won't be able to buy motors personally or store them. So you essentially become someone's (who has an LEUP) helper. Additionally, you'll need an LEUP to purchase and store Black Powder (unless you're an antique firearms user). And if you're going to use and test DD, you'll probably want BP.

The total cost was:

$100 for LEUP
$255 for Type IV magazine (from Merlin Missiles )
$35 for ink fingerprints
----
$390 Total for LEUP

There was a lot of confusion on Type IV magazines - construction, location, etc. Don't confuse a Type III with a Type IV. The Type IV has a significantly reduced specification and doesn't need to be lined with wood or lattice, etc. Just a "non-sparking" material. "Powder coating" qualifies.

Also, an indoor magazine does not have to adhere to the 75 ft rule. So an indoor magazine can be in a detached garage without any distance requirements (other than the no open flame rule). But an indoor magazine in an attached garage will require a variance. Jump through that hoop with your local fire authority before applying with the BATF. Chances are, if the local guys say, "OK", the BATF will do so also.

So, in retrospect, I'm glad I went through the process. Did I mention that it wasn't that big of a deal?

Continue reading... there's a lot of good information in this thread from helpful people such as "tfish". His article (https://www.lunar.org/docs/LUNARclips/v10/v10n1/leup.shtml) really helped me understand the process and get all of my ducks lined up.

As for state requirements, most states don't have a lot of extra stuff for HPR. But Kalifornia is not one of them. The "Pyrotechic Operator License - Rockets Class 3" is required in this state to use and launch HPR stuff. There's no provision for working under someone else's license. The law is fairly clear - If you load and/or launch a HP rocket and motor, you have to get a license. Period. And, IMHO, it's more of a PITA to get then the LEUP. Luckily, Von at CalOSFM is a nice lady. E-mailing her works much better than trying to call ([email protected]). She's kind of a one-woman shop up there so she's up to her eyeballs all of the time.

As for the Pyro III test, it was 50 T/F questions. Use the Lunarwiki study guide - especially Article 18 in the Chapter 6 section of the handbook and you'll have the test licked - no problem. Just don't mix TRA, NAR, or NFPA rules in there. And don't read anything into the questions. Remember, a steel leader on a parachute is considered a light gauge metal...

Did I mention that getting my LEUP was really not that big of a deal?

Now, back to the original thread starter... Originally, our hero (me) was considering getting a contingency storage LEUP. Let's watch what happens...


****************** End of Edit Update *******************


Well, I've decided that I want to pursue this hobby into the murky depths of High Power, and all of its associated red tape. The actual LEUP application process is not a big deal to me - I've had plenty of governmental form-filling experience and work within the government anyway. My question comes in the form of the "storage" aspect of the LEUP.

I don't plan on buying my motors from anyone other than dealers present at launches... at least not within the next year or so. Maybe I'll eventually get to the point where I buy hundreds of dollars of motors at a time, but I don't think that's going to happen soon. In the end, I'm not sure I want to spend $220 for storage right now - storage I may not use.

So, does anyone have experience getting a non-storage LEUP and then turning it into a "storage" LEUP at a later time?

Secondly, after reviewing the very little bit of info on a Type 4 magazine that I can find on this and other web sites, I'm leaning toward the job box conversion option ($100 cheaper to my door than the US Explosives "rocket box" - heck, that pays for my LEUP!). Has anyone had any trouble getting a converted job box to pass certification?

Thanks,

Ashley

 

[quickburst]

Hello All,

Well, I've decided that I want to pursue this hobby into the murky depths of High Power, and all of its associated red tape. The actual LEUP application process is not a big deal to me - I've had plenty of governmental form-filling experience and work within the government anyway. My question comes in the form of the "storage" aspect of the LEUP.

I don't plan on buying my motors from anyone other than dealers present at launches... at least not within the next year or so. Maybe I'll eventually get to the point where I buy hundreds of dollars of motors at a time, but I don't think that's going to happen soon. In the end, I'm not sure I want to spend $220 for storage right now - storage I may not use.

So, does anyone have experience getting a non-storage LEUP and then turning it into a "storage" LEUP at a later time?

Secondly, after reviewing the very little bit of info on a Type 4 magazine that I can find on this and other web sites, I'm leaning toward the job box conversion option ($100 cheaper to my door than the US Explosives "rocket box" - heck, that pays for my LEUP!). Has anyone had any trouble getting a converted job box to pass certification?

Thanks,

Ashley

All LEUP's require storage in one way or another. As far as I know there is no such thing as a non-storage LEUP.

Hope I'm not missing something!

 

[tfish]

There sort of is. It's called contingency storage..In your case get a letter from one of your motor vendors..that states they will buy back or store your motors for you that you don't use at a launch. The letter will need to have business name and their ATF's dealers number on it. I've seen once where a member could not find contingency storage so the ATF had him fill this out https://xtratime.net/LEUP/Non-StoragePlanDoc.jpg I know of a couple of guys that got contingency storage and then went and got LEUP's with storage. This site may have some helpful info https://xtratime.net/LEUP/leup.htm

Tony

 

[tfish]

By the way..where abouts in CA are you?

Tony

 

[melsman]

Hi Tony,

I'm here on the central coast - Atascadero, to be precise. Not a lot of high-power guys around here. Though Cal Poly SLO has a high-power club. I've been trying to find someone around here who has gone through this process locally.

BTW - are you the same "Tony" mentioned on the xtratime web site? I've been studying those pages, using them as a guide in this process.

Ashley

 

[tfish]

Ashley, yes that's me. I'm up in Santa Rosa. There are a couple of clubs around. LUNAR which is a NAR section flies out of Livermor. Tripoli Central California flies out of Fresno. Cal Poly shows up sometimes to fly their projects there. And AeroPac, which is a Northern California (San Jose) and Nevada club that flies out at Black Rock. Feel free to caontact me if you have any questions. You can get my e-mail address off of the AeroPac's contact list. The fire inspector that helped me geet my LEUP has helped a few other California guys get theirs too. So when you get to that point drop me an e-mail and I'll see if he can help.

Tony

 

[melsman]

Thanks, Tony - Will Do.

Ashley

 

[UhClem]

All LEUP's require storage in one way or another. As far as I know there is no such thing as a non-storage LEUP.

Hope I'm not missing something!

Until 2003 you could get a permit without storage. Then the ATF slipped a change in with the changes implementing the Safe Explosives Act.

The rule at 27 CFR 555.49 on the issuance of permits used to say (in part)

"The applicant has storage for the class (as described in Sec.
555.202) of explosive materials described on the application, unless he
establishes to the satisfaction of the Chief, Firearms and Explosives
Licensing Center, that the business or operations to be conducted will
not require the storage of explosive materials;"

The interim final rule for the Safe Explosives Act chopped it off at "unless".

 

[melsman]

Just thought I'd update this thread regarding my progress.

First off - a big thanks to Tony "tfish" . He's really been a wealth of information and his submissions to numerous web sites on the "getting legal" process has been invaluable.

I've discovered that since I live in the Peoples Republik of Kalifornia, I'll need to add the extra fun of a Pyrotechnician's License Rockets- Class III. I've also decided to not go for the 'contingency' LEUP (I called it "non-storage" earlier). It really seemed to be less hassle just to go with the normal LEUP and get the magazine and, on the plus side, I've got a detached garage. So I just bit the bullet and bought a Type 4 magazine. So here's the process as it boils down so far -

1. ($255) Order (or build) Type 4 Magazine. (Lee Berry at Merlin's Missiles - another good guy.)
2. ($0 - or maybe cost of lunch) Contact local Fire Marshall. Explain what I'm doing and why I'm doing it. Show him storage magazine and burnable sample of motor. Get his approval/confirmation that local ordnances are being adhered to.
3. ($182) Contact State Fire Marshall's office. Get Pyro III app. with LiveScan finger print request and five letters of reference from other Pyro III's. Submit paperwork with $87 for license. (Live Scan will cost about $15 more). Get testing date and drive to Monrovia or Sacramento to take test. ($80 in gas).
4. ($100) Submit ATF application. Get interviewed and approved.

Total cost before I can even purchase my first H motor for Level 1 cert- $537 and about three months.

Ashley

 

[Johnly]

The BATFE has been quite slow in processing LEUP applications and renewals of late. My personal LEUP was set to expire 7/07, and I submitted the paperwork in late May and my new permit has yet to arrive. They did send me a letter stating that the paperwork had arrived, and the local BATFE folks have offered to push things along. It's not a big deal for me, as I also have a LEMP, so I've been using that for my transactions of late. It's still a PITA that they are taking so long.

John

 

[tfish]

Being able to buy and store any motor you want...
Being able to sleep at night.....
Not worrying about Black Suburbans showing up at your house...

Priceless!

Thanks Ashley..

Tony

 

[UhClem]

The BATFE has been quite slow in processing LEUP applications and renewals of late. My personal LEUP was set to expire 7/07, and I submitted the paperwork in late May and my new permit has yet to arrive. They did send me a letter stating that the paperwork had arrived, and the local BATFE folks have offered to push things along. It's not a big deal for me, as I also have a LEMP, so I've been using that for my transactions of late. It's still a PITA that they are taking so long.

John

Dealers are prohibited by regulation from selling to anyone whose permit has been expired for more than 45 days. Your Letter of Authorization while pretty doesn't change that so it is a good thing you have the other permit. Although I suspect that dealers will accept your LOA and the ATF will not slap their hands for violating this regulation.

My renewal went pretty fast but they know that I complained to Senator Cornyn about their ignoring the statutory requirement to act within 90 days when I renewed in 2004. I suggest you pick a Senator/Representative and write to them. Preferably one that sits on an oversight committee. Be sure to mention/quote 18 USC 843(c):

"The Attorney General shall approve or deny an application within a period of 90 days for licenses and permits, beginning on the date such application is received by the Attorney General."

If you were really motivated you could take them to federal court.

 

[Maagic]

I have a hypothetical LEUP question... say a person had a felony on their record and wanted to get a LEUP but the felony in question had nothing whatsoever to do with explosives or anything of that nature. Would they still deny it?

 

[UhClem]

I have a hypothetical LEUP question... say a person had a felony on their record and wanted to get a LEUP but the felony in question had nothing whatsoever to do with explosives or anything of that nature. Would they still deny it?

The felony makes them a prohibited person in the sense of 18 USC 842(d) and (i). There is a process for getting relief from a disability provided for at 18 USC 844(b). You can apply for relief but the ATF is not required to grant it.

 

[Johnly]

I know a couple people that had to obtain relief to get a LEUP in the pre 9/11 days. I don't know if it is more difficult now or not. I'd contact the BATFE in your area and see what they have to say, as without local support it's going to be an up hill battle.

John

 

[Uncrichie]

Not looking for a response but I really think its going to depend on what degree of Felony and what it was for. There's a big difference between a felony bank fraud charge (escalates with the amount of money, not considered a crime against a person) and felony possession of a firearm during a felony bank robbery (more of a crime against a person, and not good! ). Get my drift. Uncrichie.

 

[Maagic]

Not looking for a response but I really think its going to depend on what degree of Felony and what it was for. There's a big difference between a felony bank fraud charge (escalates with the amount of money, not considered a crime against a person) and felony possession of a firearm during a felony bank robbery (more of a crime against a person, and not good! ). Get my drift. Uncrichie.

I don't really want to go into a lot of detail, but it was against a person, but no weapon was involved.

 

[melsman]

Hi Maagic,

I happened to run across the following in the ATF's "Orange" book (which I read for pleasure in between thinking about the actual burn time of a 10-sec delay module... ).

" (27 CFR 55.49)...A license or permit will not be issued to any person who:
...
(b) Has been convicted in any court of a crime punishable by imprisonment for a term exceeding one year."

Now I'm not a lawyer, but it appears to me that it's not a matter of whether you actually served over a year, or the degree of the of crime, i.e. misdemeanor or felony, but only that the crime is punishable by imprisonment for over a year.

But, it does say that "(55.142) (a) Any person may make application for relief from ... a crime punishable by imprisonment for a term exceeding one year." It goes on to say that the application is "...filed with the Director and supported by data that the applicant considers appropriate." Section (c) says "The Director may grant relief... if it is established to the satisfaction of the Director that the circumstances regarding the... conviction and the applicant's record and reputation are such that the applicant will not be likely to act in a manner dangerous to public safety, and that granting of the relief would not be contrary to the public interest."

Again, I'm not a lawyer but it sounds to me like you have a pretty good shot at relief if you've not had any other problems, don't plan to be involved with further problems, and have some reputable friends who are willing to vet for you.

Good luck,

Ashley

 

[UhClem]

Judging by the references to part 55, you are looking at an antiquated version of the regulations. Substantial changes were made in 2003, including moving it to part 555. An updated version is finally available:

https://www.atf.gov/explarson/fedexplolaw/2007edition/index.htm

This will be accurate until the next change to the law or regulations.

There is a form used to apply for relief:

https://www.atf.gov/forms/pdfs/f540029.pdf

 

[melsman]

Yeah, my "orange book" is a 2000 version. Of course, I just got it the other day from my local ATF office.

After reviewing the on-line .pdf files, you're dead on... it has changed significantly. I guess that's what happens when your Dept. gets moved from Treasury to DOJ.

Unfortunately, it doesn't seem to be as clear on Maagic's issue. But the section on "relief" seems to be more or less the same.

Ashley

 

[constevens]

Whoo-hoo... Just got a call today and my Inspection is scheduled for this Wednesday @10am. Been working on my Dealer permit now for a bit. So maybe soon.

 

[melsman]

Good luck! Let us know how it goes.

Ashley

 

[constevens]

Well got done with my ATFE inspection. It wasn't like what I thought it was going to be like at all. Much better. I was a little stressed at first and the agent made me feel quite at ease. She was very professional and yet very personable to deal with. Explained things very well and helped me along. Took about an hour. Should see my permit before the 2nd week of February. Ended up with 1000lb capability as the approved amount.

 

[mrmonteith]

Cool. I look forward to see what you offer. I'm out in the boonies so no one to store but myself so I'll have to go through this process. Although miniscule storage compared to that. lol

Michael

 

[melsman]

Ok- More progress to report. This has become a "quest"... and yes - the pun WAS intended. I'm going for a licensing record...

The California Pyro III requires a "LiveScan" fingerprint service. The LEUP requires a ink-and-roll finger print card. So, I have to have two different appointments, at two different police stations, and pay two different fees. Add another $35 to the mix.

My local Fire Marshal was very cool about all of this and only required that I have a Type 1-4 magazine (No prob.... I have a Type 4) and that I mount a NFPA diamond (NFPA 704) on my garage entry. Add another $26 for that.

Otherwise, my information is gathering. I'm in the process of getting my reference letters for the Pyro III, since that determines everything - I can't file for the Pyro III until I get them, and I can't file for the LEUP before I have a "date of application" for my Pyro III.

The quest continues. And the price of admission is up to $598.

Ashley

 

[constevens]

I hear you on that Ashley.

Here in Colorado I have to Apply for the State Stuff as well. ATFE is requiring it. Besides my $200 fee to the ATF one set of finger prints $15
$500 for the Magazine pluse the $40 or so for the locks
I had to buy some steel to make hoods for the locks another $25
then I did spray bedliner o the inside of the Magazine another $50
Laid a concrete Pad with lag studs for the Magazine to mout as its a Outdoor
Magazine. close to $100 with forms and rental of a mixer.


To be legal in state you must have all 3.

Type I for Storage... $75.00
Type II for Use.........$75.00
Type III for transportation $75.00

Pluse take a test and I belive that had a fee as well as Prints again and I have to supply a local ploice/sherrifs record and they do another backgroud check.. Whew...........

So I hear ya.. What an ordeal.. But Im almost all done.. I wish you luck with yours..


Conway

 

[ghrocketman]

The amount of fees, permits, magazines, and regs is ridiculous to purchase, store and fly just a single H motor legally.
I can't believe this has went on this long without a meaningful rejection of the ATF stance by the courts.

 

[constevens]

The amount of fees, permits, magazines, and regs is ridiculous to purchase, store and fly just a single H motor legally.
I can't believe this has went on this long without a meaningful rejection of the ATF stance by the courts.

Nothing is set in stone that will win as yet. Im optimistic But.. we will see. The Judge can take up to 2 years to make a ruling.


Anyhow I wish to continue and infact help others with their involvement in the hobby and is why I wish to become a dealer and provide flight services for those in my area. Until We get some relief its a nessecity for people to step up to do this if they wish to participate for themselfs and others.

 

[mrmonteith]

Yeah, it's not quite as bad for user vs like what you're doing, running a business. But you can defray your cost and help others by providing contingency storage for them. That way they don't have to pay quite the fees and hassle, you store them, and they pay you to store it. I suppose some places store it for no charge as incentive to buy with you. But I think most would hop at paying vs going through the expense and hassle themselves.

I live in the middle of nowhere, so no vendors, no storage. But I'm no business so I don't need quite the storage and quite the license fees. Still rediculous.

Michael

 

[constevens]

Yeah, it's not quite as bad for user vs like what you're doing, running a business. But you can defray your cost and help others by providing contingency storage for them. That way they don't have to pay quite the fees and hassle, you store them, and they pay you to store it. I suppose some places store it for no charge as incentive to buy with you. But I think most would hop at paying vs going through the expense and hassle themselves.

I live in the middle of nowhere, so no vendors, no storage. But I'm no business so I don't need quite the storage and quite the license fees. Still rediculous.

Michael

Actually a LEUP holder in the state of Colorado (not a dealer or manufacture) even with contingency storage will have to pay the state stuff. The only benifit for them is no magazine cost (thats the bigest part) Plus the fee for LEUP is less then dealer or manufacture for ATFE permit. Still alot to deal with none the less. I could see charging a fee to a person that just planned on using your magazine for storage and not buy from you. But if they plan on storing the stuff I sell I wouldnt charge them.. Or other customers that purchase from me for that mater. Makes some sense..