Smoke *before* fire!

The Rocketry Forum

Help Support The Rocketry Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.

Mushtang

Premium Member
TRF Supporter
Joined
Nov 29, 2011
Messages
3,452
Reaction score
1,135
Location
Buford, Ga
I love watching these rockets take off, they go SO fast so quickly. I've been watching a lot of slow motion videos online of launches too and they're really cool because you get to see the exhaust billow out a little before the rocket moves, much like the real thing.

This morning I thought that it would be really neat to have an engine with a small section of white smoke producing material packed in that the ignitor would light, and after about 1 second the rocket fuel would start burning and the rocket would take off.

Wouldn't that make a much better looking launch?
 
It could not be part of the propulsion motor because a Model Rocket must move immediately (within a second) of pushing the launch button. If a fuse or a slow burning smoke charge was ignited by the electrical system, and then the rocket/launch pad blew over or an aircraft suddenly approached at low level, it would be a serious safety problem.


Smoke only non-mootrs were sold by MRC and ignited by a seperate firing circuit. The main propulsion motor would not be ignited until later and since it was a different button, launch could be aborted.
 
It could not be part of the propulsion motor because a Model Rocket must move immediately (within a second) of pushing the launch button. .

I will defer to you on this one since I'm brand new to the hobby. Although I just re-read the safety code and I don't see anything about a 1 second rule.

I'm not able to build my own motors so it's just a nice thought anyway. Something that would add to the realism of a launch.
 
I will defer to you on this one since I'm brand new to the hobby. Although I just re-read the safety code and I don't see anything about a 1 second rule.

I'm not able to build my own motors so it's just a nice thought anyway. Something that would add to the realism of a launch.

The Model Rocket Safety Code is a very, very shortened version of the rules contained in N.F.P.A. 1122 and 1125.

However, it appears that the one second rule was removed sometime between the 1994 and 2002 editions. Hmmmm. (currently at the 2008 version of 1122 and the 2012 version of 1125)
 
I used to use canon fuse when I launched as a child. I now know why that was a bad idea. It is nice to be able to abort a flight.
 
However, it appears that the one second rule was removed sometime between the 1994 and 2002 editions. Hmmmm. (currently at the 2008 version of 1122 and the 2012 version of 1125)

Nevertheless, one of the factors that has led to our excellent safety record is the use of electrical ignition and one of the obvious reasons for using electrical ignition is that we know that the rocket will launch shortly after the button is pressed.

Some scale modellers have used dry ice to simulate smoke and vapor. One idea I'm exploring for a large Saturn V I'm building is to use dry ice to simulate the vapor that collected around the rocket before launch. Then, just before the countdown reaches zero, I'll have a remote control either dump some water on the dry ice or open a door to release the vapor from more dry ice. This would simulate the smoke that appeared after the Saturn V's engines started just before launch.

-- Roger
 
As others have mentioned here, there used to be something called "FX" motors which were basically model rocket motor-sized casings filled with "smoke bomb" propellant... you ignited them with a separate launch controller firing circuit just like you would a model rocket motor, then after a couple seconds ignited the regular model rocket motor to propel the rocket, assuming a small plane hadn't appeared directly over your launch pad or the pad blew over and the rocket was pointed right at you. They were never terribly popular and didn't last but a few years before production ceased and they disappeared. They were nice because they also augmented the smoke trail IN FLIGHT...

The motor manufacturers just plain WILL NOT modify their motors to include a second or two of delay-train propellant (which is slow-burning smoke producing propellant, compared to the fast-burning main propulsion propellant ignited at liftoff) for two reasons. 1) it would require a complete recertification of the motor, which is expensive and time consuming, and of course in addition to the redesign and testing of the motor in the first place, for a VERY limited market potential. 2) Many motor designs simply DO NOT have the extra room in the casing for the additional layer of "delay train" propellant to go in the nozzle end of the casing first, with the fast burning propulsion grain above it, topped by another delay grain on top of that, capped by the ejection charge and clay cap. Some motor designs aren't even feasible anymore because modern BP is sorrier than BP used to be, meaning that the propellant grains have to be longer than they used to be to get the same energy, which makes the entire slug too long to fit in the existing casing. Never mind adding ANOTHER layer of smoky delay propellant for special effects.

Now, there's been a number of ways to create the effect your talking about. Some of them fall outside the safety code and cannot be discussed in an open forum... PM me if you want more information. Personally I used to have a launch pad with a "blast tunnel", constructed of 3/4 inch plywood layered to give a base, with the tunnel lined with cut sheet metal, flanked by a "C" shaped piece of plywood to create the tunnel walls, and topped by another sheet of plywood with a hole cut in it over the blast tunnel to create the "flame hole" the rocket motor sat directly over. When I wanted lots of smoke, I simply dumped a few tablespoons of flour into the tunnel before I launched, which the rocket motor's blast would blow out of the tunnel at liftoff, creating a cloud of "smoke" as the rocket lifted off. Dr. Zooch built a "milkstool" launcher for one of his Saturn IB's similar to that used to launch Saturn IB's off Saturn V pads for Skylab missions and ASTP... he made a "smoke effect" by simply "CHAD staging" a dash zero booster motor directly to the motor in the Saturn IB, with the booster motor securely attached to the launch pad to prevent any movement, which was then ignited electrically like any other rocket motor. The booster motor burned "on the pad" and blew out copious clouds of smoke, and then at burn-through ignited the regular model rocket motor in the Saturn IB, "staging" on the launch pad, releasing the Saturn IB to then take off normally... I've heard of some other ideas, but they're definitely in the "gray areas" of the safety code at best, so if you want to know more you'll have to PM me...

Later and good luck! OL JR :)
 
It’s always best if the rocket leaves the pad with alacrity; but this doesn’t always occur as intended.

LDRS XXX saw a great example of this when a guy launched a rocket whose motor was using a propellant mixed to produce a dense black smoke.

The countdown was counted-down, the button was pushed and the rocket sat there chuffing thick puffs of black smoke for a dozen seconds or so.

I think I can. I think I can, I think I can.

Nothing to do but stand around and watch until it either used up all the propellant while remaining on the rail, achieved liftoff. . . Or exploded.

Thankfully it eventually launched.

I wish somebody had a video of that.

I have witnessed a few heavy rockets with less than maximum motors remain on the pad for a few moments after motor ignition before enough thrust is achieved to actually get it off the rail.
 
I love watching these rockets take off, they go SO fast so quickly. I've been watching a lot of slow motion videos online of launches too and they're really cool because you get to see the exhaust billow out a little before the rocket moves, much like the real thing.

This morning I thought that it would be really neat to have an engine with a small section of white smoke producing material packed in that the ignitor would light, and after about 1 second the rocket fuel would start burning and the rocket would take off.

Wouldn't that make a much better looking launch?



Composite motors already do this to some extent.

This is interesting to contemplate though. There is no technical reason why there couldn't be different formulations of propellant layered in the same casing. As mentioned it would require recertification but in the past 10 years lots of new propellants have come on the market. For instance 10 years ago I thought Aerotech had things covered pretty well with their 3 main propellants but now they have more. They could make a normal core with White Lightning and then add a thin layer of Black Jack on the inside that would ignite first. This would make the motors more complex and more expensive, would there be a market for them?
 
When I was a kid, I created a small box that my old Saturn V would sit on. Within that box was a small plastic bag or balloon with water in it. When the flame would hit the bag, it would burst and some of the water would flash to steam. Did a pretty good job protecting the box too.

However, I'm wondering if dry ice would work instead of water...

FC
 
When I was a kid, I created a small box that my old Saturn V would sit on. Within that box was a small plastic bag or balloon with water in it. When the flame would hit the bag, it would burst and some of the water would flash to steam. Did a pretty good job protecting the box too.

However, I'm wondering if dry ice would work instead of water...

FC


Created? That's a powerful word. Built, made or constructed yeah.... but created? :D
 
Last edited:
Or use smoke bombs.

I got some on the fourth of July, They came in orange, blue, green, and white smoke.

Light the smoke bomb it start smoking a lot then hit the launch button.

easy enough. :horse:
 
One second? Most of my AT single use engines don't cover that. The ignitor pops shortly after I hit the switch. Flame blows out the back end. There's a short pause. Then things get moving. A plane is not going to fly into range suddenly unless it's supersonic and cutting treetops. And if he's doing that, he should be good enough to dodge me.

The Magg flight here, on a G77-4 had a particularly long ignition delay. The G78G on the optima was also a bit slow.

https://youtu.be/gZ_vDX_4TEU
 
It’s always best if the rocket leaves the pad with alacrity; but this doesn’t always occur as intended.

LDRS XXX saw a great example of this when a guy launched a rocket whose motor was using a propellant mixed to produce a dense black smoke.

The countdown was counted-down, the button was pushed and the rocket sat there chuffing thick puffs of black smoke for a dozen seconds or so.

I think I can. I think I can, I think I can.

Nothing to do but stand around and watch until it either used up all the propellant while remaining on the rail, achieved liftoff. . . Or exploded.

Thankfully it eventually launched.

I wish somebody had a video of that.

I have witnessed a few heavy rockets with less than maximum motors remain on the pad for a few moments after motor ignition before enough thrust is achieved to actually get it off the rail.

Sounds like about half the APCP motor ignitions I've seen... LOL:)

"3, 2, 1, IGNITION!... psst... chuff... chuff... chuff... chuff... smoke... PFFFTTT... LIFTOFF!!!"... :rolleyes::confused::eyeroll::shock::lol:

later! OL JR :)
 
[POW]Eagle159;269093 said:
Or use smoke bombs.

I got some on the fourth of July, They came in orange, blue, green, and white smoke.

Light the smoke bomb it start smoking a lot then hit the launch button.

easy enough. :horse:
Aside from the ignition issue, the problem with this is that smoke bombs burn for much, much longer than most rockets fly. Also there is the whole thing about using model rockets to launch fireworks.

MRC FX-style motors seem like the ideal solution here if you want to stick to launching with black powder motors.

Otherwise, just use a White Lightning motor or reload ;)...


2007-08-11-09-47-36_4.jpg


blowfish2.jpg
......
29mm_high_power_loads.jpg


attachment.php
 
As a mountain man myself, I can appreciate some fine white lightning...

[YOUTUBE]D-5TovPg4F4[/YOUTUBE]
 
Last edited:

Latest posts

Back
Top