Rear thrust rings on 29mm BP motors

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Friendly suggestion sent to Estes CS:
"Since most builders are eliminating gluing in the forward thrust ring in 29 mm motor mounts to accommodate various motor lengths, why not include a cardboard aft thrust ring that can be glued to the rear end of your 29 mm BP motors? That would eliminate the need for customers to add a masking tape rear thrust ring every time they want to launch. I believe that would add maybe a few cents to the cost of the motors. Thoughts?"

Similar to the older AT Econojet motors:
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That's not a bad idea.

Even though I have a box of F-15s, I really don't enjoy putting the tape on, and have started to switch over to the EnerJet motors for my 29mm models.
 
Then how come AT allowed it on their Econojets?
Because they asked for the hypothetical modification or exception. I think @SolarYellow's point is that Estes might have to go through more red tape than they're willing to deal with.

Are we allowed to glue a cardboard ring to engines without violating any "safety" codes or rules? If so, maybe Estes can get around a potential red-tape hurdle by just including some cardbord rings with each 29mm engine pack (with users gluing it on themselves). But then again, that might not be more convenient than just using masking tape.
 
Or maybe the first time one comes unglued, that person will say "but Estes said it was okay!"..
 
Estes has started including the tape thrust ring graphic on all the PSII rocket product pages. Tape thrust rings are a time-honored standard practice and work just fine.

Epoxying a thrust ring on was a typical practice for quite some time with Aerotech (and other) single use motors. I doubt it’s ever been considered modding a motor - maybe by the NAR back in their anti-HPR phase, but not for many, many years.
 
So customers are allowed to "modify" an engine by wrapping a masking tape thrust ring on but not allowed to glue a cardboard one? What's the difference?

Sounds similar to plugging BP booster motors with tape and wadding being kosher but plugging them with epoxy not being allowed.
 
So customers are allowed to "modify" an engine by wrapping a masking tape thrust ring on but not allowed to glue a cardboard one? What's the difference?
This is my feeling. More consistent easier....it is not modifying the "function" of the motor like epoxy inside, or drilling/chipping the delay out, or drilling nozzle, or drilling a core into the BP, etc.
 
A snatch of memory: Somewhere read that at a NAR competition, someone used a tiny drop of CA to glue the motor into the MMT. After returning the rocket for inspection, a hefty tap on the table removed the motor. I *thought* it ended up being allowed because it was temporary in actual fact, though CA normally makes a permanent bond.

Might have been in G. Harry Stine's book. Any oldtimer NAR competitors out there who can confirm/deny?
 
A snatch of memory: Somewhere read that at a NAR competition, someone used a tiny drop of CA to glue the motor into the MMT. After returning the rocket for inspection, a hefty tap on the table removed the motor. I *thought* it ended up being allowed because it was temporary in actual fact, though CA normally makes a permanent bond.

Might have been in G. Harry Stine's book. Any oldtimer NAR competitors out there who can confirm/deny?
I had not heard that, but it is plausible and may have been allowed at section meet, probably not at regional or NARAM. The rule is that nothing may be "affixed" to the motor. You can apply tape to the motor and then glue to the tape. You cannot plug the motor with epoxy, but you can cork it. There may some gray stuff with regard to modifying and affixing, like removing aft motor thrust rings.
 
Might require an exception or modification of various safety codes that prohibit gluing anything to the motor.
What about the "glue" that comes on the masking tape??
I am not a lawyer, but to say that you CANNOT glue anything to a motor and then also state that masking tape (which is essentially glue and paper) is OK, is contradictory, and frankly, wouldn't hold up for very long in a court of law. Just bring in any adhesives expert to testify what masking tape is made of.
 
Or wrap on the masking tape and then add a few drops of CA.... Just to be safe. But yes, the idea of making cardboard thrust rings to glue to 29mm BP F motors from Estes sounds like a great idea. Going to start working on that tonight.
 
Please tell me then what is a sub minimum diameter rocket then. Pretty sure they are gluing fins to the case.
Probably...though it could also mean a motor section adapted to a smaller-diameter upper/deployment section. But yes, if fins are glued to the case, a question arises. Doggone if *I* know the answer, though...
 
Motors
I will use only certified, commercially made model rocket motors, and will not tamper with these motors or use them for any purposes except those recommended by the manufacturer.

So the reason why you can glue things to AT motors is that they said you could. Estes has said use tape to make a thrust ring.

The safety code is not a buffet.

kj
 
Exactly.
So what is or isn't allowed should apply to ALL motors REGARDLESS of the manufacturer.

Different manufacturers make different allowances/recommendations. If it had to be unified across them (despite product differences) you'd get the intersection of those options. I don't think anyone wants to lose options they already have now.

To be clear, I agree with your suggestion to Estes CS.
 
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Different manufacturers make different allowances/recommendations. If it had to be unified across them (despite product differences) you'd get the intersection of those options. I don't think anyone wants to lose options they already have now.
Fair enough.
So you're saying that it's not a modification under NAR rules ONLY IF the manufacturer OKs it?
 
To be clear, I agree with your suggestion to Estes CS.
The "new" management there are actually into the hobby. Let's try to get an approval for adding, thrust rings, or tape.

Anybody have an "in" to management, that could take this up? (Or do we all send to Customer Service, and hope it gets passes on, with a number of people asking...)
 
I'm sure I recently read some safety code-type content that said something about not permanently gluing anything to the motor, but I did a search and can't find in in NAR, TRA or NFPA 1122. Anyone know what I was reading?

Discussed elsewhere, but I figure I'll land the plane. Pretty sure that what I'd recently read was the text below, which is the rule book for competition, but not specifically part of any safety code. So my post quoted above was clearly confused and/or confusing:

NATIONAL ASSOCIATION OF ROCKETRY
UNITED STATES MODEL ROCKET SPORTING CODE

4 MODEL ROCKET MOTOR STANDARDS
4.4 Alterations
A model rocket motor must not be altered in any manner that changes its dimensions and/or its performance characteristics. No material may be permanently affixed to the motor.

This explains why "flying motor" records are excluded for NAR, but are allowed in Tripoli.

As far as glue vs. tape, although there are tapes that are effectively permanent, most tapes, especially masking or foil tape that is generally used for retaining motors, are reasonably considered temporary, whereas most glues will sufficiently damage a paper motor case when removed that they are reasonably considered permanent. I suppose if someone wanted to push on it, a rubber cement that would peel off without damaging the surface of the paper might squeak by. Or the idea in the OP of this thread could be executed with peelable rubber cement and likely be reasonably defensible.

For non-competition use, it would be subject to interpretation whether permanently affixing something to the motor constituted tampering. There doesn't seem to be a red line there, especially if the performance characteristics are not changed, but a discussion could be had around whether that changed the dimensions, at least if the Sporting Code is held to provide relevant context for interpreting the safety code. Ultimately, because the safety code only includes the language "tamper with," there is flexibility that makes the final call subject to the judgement of a particular RSO. Or jury, if a plaintiff's attorney happens to be included in a discussion much lengthier than anyone would like.

Turning a -0 booster motor into a -P plugged motor would be changing its performance characteristics. The powers that be seem to be OK with doing so in a reversible manner with tape (perhaps that is just the "installation" of the motor in the rocket that is designed around the performance characteristics of the motor), but not OK with doing so in a permanent manner with epoxy or other glue (which alters the design of the motor itself).

Non-permanent plugging to keep -0 motors from spitting fire out the front has been demonstrated to be sufficiently easy and effective as to be completely practical. Having gotten my head around the methods, I see no reason to complain about the status quo today.

Also, I second the suggestion of 1/4-inch wide masking tape making tape thrust rings easier to install, although it ironically costs a little more than the cheap 3/4 inch wide stuff, which can be easily trimmed flush with the end of the motor once applied.

One last thing: Obviously, putting epoxy or CA on/around the clay nozzle to prevent it blowing out and CATOing is not changing overall dimensions or performance characteristics, so I would judge is in compliance with the safety code, but would not expect it to be permitted in NAR competition.
 
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Correct me if my memory is faulty.
I seem to remember reading somewhere that AT OKs the removal by the user of the ejection charge grains from composite motors and putting back the red plastic plug.
Wouldn't removing an ejection charge be considered "materially changing its' performance characteristics"?
 
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