Questions About Glue

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Kleaklejok

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Hello, I recently joined this site several minutes ago. I am in a rocket club at my school, and several days ago, I ordered my first rocket kit (Tandem-X Launch set) and I'm building both of the rockets that came in it today. I asked my teacher what glue to use and he said: You shouldn`t use Super glue, you should use Elmers white glue. I bought Elders Carpenter Glue. Is that what I should use... Thanks!!




-Kleaklejok:wink:
 
How long do you plan on doing rocketry? if you plan on building for a while, buy some of 5 minute epoxy (in the 4.5oz dispensers from Bob Smith Industries) .
I dont think Carpenter's glue will work with the Estes plastic fin cans. instead try epoxy or CA (superglue) ( I dont know why your teacher would discourage superglue from being used).
Carpenter's glue will work VERY well with the Crossfire though. It bonds Wood to paper very strongly.

-Alex
 
So before I go to build them, I should get some epoxy...
Thanks, Kleaklejok

If you examine the instructions that came with the set ... you need both wood glue and plastic cement.

I recommend following the instructions for best results. Epoxy is not needed for the Tandem-x starter set.

Someone has made a nice website all about this starter set, including instructions with photos. :cool:

Click the link below.

https://www.stormthecastle.com/model-rockets/estes-tandem-x-rocket-kit.htm
.
 
Manufacturer's instructions are usually reliable, and should be followed. If it is an Estes kit and something goes wrong (if the adhesive doesn't hold together and the rocket crashes) they are pretty good about replacing your rocket. The only time I would suggest ignoring the instructions would be if you came across an old kit that still called for the use of Testors model cement glue-in-a-tube (that stuff is worthless, even for plastic model kits).

If you have not ever worked with epoxy before, there are some basics you should know. It is a great adhesive when it is used properly, but it is also a pain in the rear when it is not.
First of all, it uses a chemical reaction to harden (it does not 'dry' like white or yellow water-based glues) so if the instructions say to mix one part (by volume, usually) of this tube with one part of that tube, they mean ONE part and ONE part. If you get this ratio wrong you can easily end up with a mess of goo that never quite hardens, never completes the joint you are trying to build, and leaves a huge mess to clean up (with lots of rags and alcohol).
Because epoxy hardens (and does not evaporate part of the material like water-based glues), you will pretty much get a relatively heavy joint. Whatever amount of epoxy you put into the project will remain there---this stuff is generally pretty difficult to sand off with sandpaper or to file away with other tools. Epoxy tends to make heavy joints unless you develop an eye for putting in only what you really need.
Different epoxies come labeled as '5-minute' or even '30-minute' and that pretty much means exactly what it says. You can count on the fact that your 30-second quick-set epoxy will be unusable at (or very quickly after) 30 seconds after you start mixing them, so do not mix the whole package and expect to have the whole afternoon to be able to dip some out of the pot and keep on using it. Further, within that labeled 'pot life,' you can expect your epoxy to be truly workable (or, usable on a practical level) for about half or two thirds of the pot life. It will start to thicken up and turns more viscous, and cannot be worked into tight spaces as easily.
I like to mix epoxy in small batches and work on one assembly step at a time, rather than lay out a whole bunch of ready-to-build joints and try to hurry through as many as possible before a batch of epoxy starts to go bad. And I keep the left-over epoxy from each batch for a while (over to the side of my work area) to inspect it later; I want to know if it hardened properly and if I can expect the rest of it (inside the joints) did the same.
If it gets on your clothes, or onto things where you don't want it, or (more importantly) onto things where your teacher or Mom doesn't want it, you are in trouble. It doesn't come off easily (like, at all) when you want it to. It is extremely easy to mess up clothes, table tops, etc.
Many people develop allergies to the epoxy (some start off that way before they ever use it once). Others try to use latex gloves to keep the epoxy off their skin and end up with allergies to latex.
Epoxy will soak into balsa, cardboard and paper parts and will make a good structural joint but you have to catch it when the epoxy is fresh and fluid and can soak into those materials. Epoxy will bond very well to plastic parts but the joining surfaces MUST be clean (no obvious dirt, no finger oils, clean off the mold-release coatings from the injection molding process with an alcohol wipe-down) and it helps to give the smooth plastic surfaces a light scuff sanding with fine-grit sandpaper to give a little more mechanical grip to the adhesive.
Cured, finished epoxy is a plastic, and will often soften when exposed to heat or to strong sunlight. It also gets brittle with age, but we are talking MANY years here usually. If your build project is around a long time the joints that were bullet-proof when young can become amazingly fragile when they are old.
Unless you are joining materials that just simply won't work with other adhesives, epoxy is generally not necessary. (It might work well anyway, even if it is not absolutely required.) If you can use something more simple or cheaper or easier to work with, I vote for an alternate adhesive choice every time.
 
I asked my teacher what glue to use and he said: You shouldn`t use Super glue

Super glue is another adhesive that is great at some things but can easily lead to horrible messes. Probably best left until later, more advanced projects.
SG is another adhesive that 'cures' as opposed to drying and evaporating part of the adhesive. It seems to be triggered by humidity and accelerated by heat. I try not to rely on it being fluid and usable for more than (literally) a few seconds. I use throw-away tools to spread it (Qtips work great) and keep a layer of something under the work area in case that $%^&&* bottle of SG spills over. Ask me how I know this.
Super glue can join many different materials, and works great on skin. If you are going to use super glue then you should have some acetone-based nail polish remover and a supply of kleenex or cotton balls (and I mean right there on the work bench, on the spot, ready to go, not put away somewhere down the hall). Ask me how I know this.
Super glue makes a brittle joint. If there is any way that the pieces can flex later the joint can be seriously weakened. Super glue is often best used to tack together parts (with a single drop) to hold them in place while another adhesive is applied and dries (like white or yellow glue) over the entire joint.
 
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Gorilla glue (the thick, brown kind) is a good adhesive but has a lot of the same challenges as working with epoxy or super glue.

GG is relatively expensive, and if you don't use it right the whole stupid bottle can cure once you open it (making it even more expensive). It is another chemical system that cures when triggered by the humidity in the air, which leads to a little trick that I use when working with GG. I put a small amount in a cup, mix in a few drops of water, wait a minute for it to start to foam up, and then use it like an epoxy adhesive. You will have five to ten minutes to work with a batch and then the GG starts to get unusable.
You WILL have to CLAMP the joining parts together, as GG expands as it cures and will push things apart and out of position. If you can't secure the joining parts in some fashion, GG may not be the right choice.
GG gets onto clothes, work surfaces, and everywhere else, and makes a mess just like epoxy. I have not yet found anything that removes it except scraping (don't get it on your skin; ask me how I know this).
Which leads to its wonderful prize characteristic; GG will stick ANYTHING to ANYTHING. I swear you could successfully immobilize a four-year-old with this stuff.
 
White, yellow, and brown water-based glues are your best bet all around if the instructions let you use them. These glues include Elmers-types, Aileens 'Tacky' glue, so-called carpenters glues, and many others. No, this glue is not made from horses.
As a side benefit, they wash off easily from hands and can be cleaned pretty easily from clothing if you catch them before they dry.
Water-based glues used to attach balsa fins to cardboard body tubes may require a double-glue approach for best results. First of all, you should scuff sand the cardboard BT in the fin root area to rough up the outer glassine layer; this gives a much better chance for the glue to get a grip. The fin joint will be much stronger if the joining parts fit well (as is the case in any carpentry or glued joint) so if the fin root is crooked, sand it flat or replace the fin. Once you are ready to glue, place a few DROPS of glue (yeah, that's right, don't hose it down) on the balsa root, spread it along the length of the joint in a THIN layer, and press it into place on the cardboard BT to spread the glue there also. Then promptly remove it; separate the pieces for a minute or so. Finally, apply a thin bead of glue along the fin root and press it back into place. You may need to hold it or watch it for a few minutes to be sure the fin is properly aligned and doesn't flop over, but the thin glue joint should grab and set quickly and will be dry in a few minutes. After an hour or so, THEN you go back and put a glue fillet on the outsides of the joint, but don't use heavy glue on the initial assembly or it will NEVER dry.
If you want to read more about the double-glue joint you can do a search on TRF (use the search button up in the blue toolbar).
A good joint with water-based glues will usually be stronger than the surrounding materials. Often the glue will hold, and the cardboard will peel or the nearby balsa will crack. These types of glue are plenty strong enough for the task for almost all low-power and mid-power rocketry, and you seldom need to use other adhesives.
 
One last recommendation: for the plastic parts, I've found Amazing Goop (either the Household version or the All Purpose version) does a great bond to the types of plastic Estes uses for plastic fincans. It melts the plastic a bit to get the weld-bond type. IT does a good job of cardboard to plastic joints too. You can find this stuff at any walmart, lowes, HD, etc...
 
One other thing about Super Glue (CA or Cyanoacrylate)

It comes in thin, medium, and thick consistencies, and they act quite differently.

Thin, as you will expect, is extremely runny, tends to drip, and hardens almost instantly. You have little or no time to adjust anything with thin CA glue. So make sure your parts are EXACTLY in place before you apply it, and use it EXTREMELY sparingly. You will also find that it loves to adhere anything except what you want it to adhere (for example, if you aren't careful you are more likely to glue the fin to your finger than to the body tube! Also will glue your fingers to each other. No, I am NOT kidding.:rant:)

Medium is fast, but gives you a little bit of play time (probably less than a minute, but at least there is some.) I like to use just a touch of medium glue to tack the fins in place, then when dry (takes only a few minutes IF you use it sparingly) apply my white or wood glue fillets. Note that two very THIN white or wood glue fillets will be stronger and dry faster than one thick one. Like

I haven't used THICK CA glue, I imagine it drys much slower. Probably runs a lot less as well.

There are lots of sources for CA glue. Hobby Lobby has decent size bottles at a good price.:2:

Also if you get CA on your clothes, good luck getting it out. If anyone knows of any good ways to get CA out of clothing, please post it.

Tom
 
I haven't used THICK CA glue, I imagine it drys much slower. Probably runs a lot less as well.

I've used Loctite gel superglue, and it does take a minute or two to really glue, but it doesn't run. It's fairly strong.

The 5 second professional Loctite is runny. Incredibly strong, but it's a pretty steep learning curve. Like others said, if you use any CA superglue, make darn sure your parts fit perfectly or as close as possible before applying the glue.
 
Something to keep in mind about ALL CA (super glues) regardless of brand or manufacturer.
Cyano's (CA's) exposed to any UV source at all become brittle over time. they will and do Crack, and break easily after only a year or so.

CA's are fine for short term building like Compeititon models or prototyping but if you plan on having model around for some time....(I for instance am still flying models build in the 70 and 80's)... White Elmers, Yellow or brown Carpenters glues, Ambroid cement and most epoxies are a much better choice for Fin attachment and Motor mount installations.

For General flying I have to agree with just about everthing Powderburner has already posted. My suggestions are White or yellow glues for Motor Mounts, remembering Yellow glues grap much quicker the White. Yellow carpenters glue for fins attachment with epoxy fillets. CA's reserved for Tack jobs and short term holding or attaching styene details to wood or cardboard.

All Plastics are not the same: Bonding and welding Plastics will be determined by the type of "plastic" we're working with. Acrylics, Modified Acrylics and styrenes can use any of a number of solvent welding materials. MC (Methylene Chloride), Plasticstruct or Amborid "Proweld" or Tenax-7R water thin solvent welders are preferred but Acetone or MEK will also work. Household "Goop" tube glue fall in this "can work" group along with Testers tube glues for styrene models. Polycarbonates (Lexan) require a completely different type adhesive and/or attachment technique depending on what it's being attached to. Weld-on-16 for Lexan to lexan, while epoxy rivet method is best for Lexan to most other combinations. There are a bunch of "other plastics" that require other adhesives or methods for use in our hobby. None are all that unattainable..but we really need to identify what the materials are we're trying to bond.

For those interested there is a very good in-depth Tech-tip on "Working with Plastics" in the library section www.narhams.org It's a free download Tech-tip-017 should answer many of these questions with solid answers and How to's.
 
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I’d be a bit leery about using Testor’s plastic glue on the plastic parts of any rocket kit.

Testor’s liquid cement or the stuff in the tubes commonly referred to as “Model Airplane Cement” is strictly for styrene plastic and works by dissolving the surface layers of the plastic parts which then re-harden into what is basically one single part.

Virtually all the plastic being used on today’s model rockets is something other that styrene and Testor’s will not dissolve it. It might hold the parts together through surface tension/adhesion but it won’t be a strong joint.

You might try some “Plastruct” ABS Cement on an unexposed place on the plastic part to see if that will dissolve the surface, otherwise I suggest epoxy.

But even there you should take care. There are some types of plastic being used that even epoxies and “Superglues” won’t adhere to.
 
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