What are they?
Andrew
I gots no use for a D8 just like I got no use for an Aero-Tech 24mm D9 reload.
But Quest E and Fs now you have my attention.
What impulse range on the Quest T's?
Andrew
Both Quest motors have more than 30 grams of propellant and and the F12 would have to have less than 62.5 grams. A full 40 Ns E motor would have 50 grams of BP and a 50 ns 25% F would have have the maximum 62.5 grams of BP. These BP motors are not mailable so how many folks would be willing to pay a $25 hazmat fee every time they order them, especially since AT has equivalent APCP motors that have not more than 30 grams of propellant which can be mailed via USPS without any hazmat fee?Here are pictures of the Quest E and F motors taken at NARAM-50.
Bob,I wonder what the real market is for these motors. Quest is currently having rocket motor made in China? To be economical, I think you would have to order a container load of motors. While there's a sufficient market for A through D BP motors, I'm not sure the market will support the bigger BP motors because of the inherently higher shipping costs. No good business person is going to import a lot of motors that may not sell for a very long time.
SKY(TM) is a trademark of Shaanxi Zhongtian Rocket Technology Co., Ltd. https://www.made-in-china.com/showroom/skymodelI'm more interested in the 13mm B and 10.5mm A that SKY makes. I have to wonder why no one is trying to get these on the U.S. market.
DougBob,
You make some good points.
OTOH, these are BP motors - no one else is offering a BP F motor. Quest would have a market niche all to itself (for a while). And, IIRC, the Quest E motor is higher impulse than the Estes E. So they should enjoy some decent margin on these uncommon motors.
As for the hazmat, I agree, but that only applies to mail order. If they were sold thru brick-and-mortar shops, the hazmat would be amortized over many motors and present only a small adder per motor. In some cases, such as at Hobby Lobby for example, they ship from their own warehouses which should further reduce the per-motor hazmat fees.
My take is that the problem is likely more of an import regulatory headache than a profitability issue.
If the gov't (ATF or whoever) allows the D5's and D8's to be imported, the larger motors should get the same treatment, but they could indeed be looking at the amount of BP in the E's and F's and judging them to be somehow more of a threat.
I know it's illogical, but we're talking about the federal gov't, and they're not always so logical
Doug
.
Four words:Both Quest motors have more than 30 grams of propellant and and the F12 would have to have less than 62.5 grams. A full 40 Ns E motor would have 50 grams of BP and a 50 ns 25% F would have have the maximum 62.5 grams of BP. These BP motors are not mailable so how many folks would be willing to pay a $25 hazmat fee every time they order them, especially since AT has equivalent APCP motors that have not more than 30 grams of propellant which can be mailed via USPS without any hazmat fee?
I wonder what the real market is for these motors. Quest is currently having rocket motor made in China? To be economical, I think you would have to order a container load of motors. While there's a sufficient market for A through D BP motors, I'm not sure the market will support the bigger BP motors because of the inherently higher shipping costs. No good business person is going to import a lot of motors that may not sell for a very long time.
Bob
Four words:
- staging
- and
- easy
- clustering
Has anybody heard anything on whether or not not Quest is planning to bring these to market anytime soon?
I want E and F black powder motors for my FSI clone fleet. Quest already makes one in the smaller size (Quest 20mm D5 ≈ FSI 21 mm) and now I'd like to get some of their 28mm E and F motors (Quest 28mm ≈ FSI 27mm). So I would most certainly buy them if they were released for sale. I'm not an investor in Quest so it's not for me to figure out the size of the market and the profit point for these motors. I'm just a customer, and I am saying that I would buy them. I'm expressing a desire as a customer, not figuring out a plan as a product manager. That's all me, you or anyone else involved in this discussion can do, since none of us is involved in running the company.And how big do you think the market is for these uses in these sizes? The answer, in the grand scheme of things, is miniscule.
Well I think I remember back a while that Apogee had 10.5 mm motors.
Andrew
Those are uses, not market. The market is unit sales per year. Who many F12 motors will get sold per year @ $11 to $12 each? 5,000 or 10,000 max? That's only $5,000 to $10,000 per month revenue.Four words:
- staging
- and
- easy
- clustering
Okay, it's not ATF - it's DoT and BoE - but, either way, despite other motor vendors having trudged their way thru this, I can't help but wonder if the bureaucracy isn't a major factor.Doug
There's no difference in import regulatory requirements and BATFE and DOT regulatory requirements for BP D motors and BP E and F motors with less than 62.5 g.
1.) Model rocket motors are NOT regulated by BATF regulations. (snip)
2.) Domestic shipping is not an issue. I am a signatory to DOT-SP 7887 and DOT-SP 10996 so I can ship both model rocket motors and high power rocket motors in commerce (common carrier). Quest Aerospace is also a signatory to DOT-SP 7887. (snip)
3.) An EX number for the propellant and the article is required for importation and transportation of Class 1 materials. This requires testing by a UN/DOT approved compentent 3rd party testing service, and acceptance of the testing by DOT. This is not difficult to obtain, especially for hobby rocket motors, but it does cost money. There are testing services in China, so the cost is not prohibitive, but is real. (snip)
My guess is at the present time, there is not enough of a market to insure a profit.
Those are uses, not market. The market is unit sales per year. Who many F12 motors will get sold per year @ $11 to $12 each? 5,000 or 10,000 max? That's only $5,000 to $10,000 per month revenue.
You can fit 250 F12s into 1 cubic foot, or 300 E12s in the same space. standard containers come in 20' and 40' lengths. Roughly 17,500 E or 14,600 F motors will fill 5% of a 20' container, or 2.5% of a 40' container. Based on the assumption above that quantity would be a 1.5 to 3 year supply, and would have a wholesale value between $25,000-$30,000. The contents of a filled 20' container could be worth as little as $500,000 to as much as $1,200,000 for a full 40' container. A smart vendor is going to make sure he get's his money back on his investment.
If I invest $1,000,000 I would want a minimum 10% annual return. If it takes 1 year to sell out what I bought, I want at least $1,100,000 back in my pocket after all expenses including my salary and benefits. If it's two years, I want $1,210,000 back, 3 years $1,331,000 back. If I can't do that, then I've lost money.
Bob
I still have some of the Apogee B2'sNone of that changes the fact that a 13mm B2 would be awesome and is near the top of my motor wish list.
My job as a customer is not to figure out how Quest could market these motors and make a profit on them. My job is to decide whether or not I would buy them if I had the chance. My answer to that question is affirmative.Those are uses, not market. The market is unit sales per year. Who many F12 motors will get sold per year @ $11 to $12 each? 5,000 or 10,000 max? That's only $5,000 to $10,000 per month revenue.
You can fit 250 F12s into 1 cubic foot, or 300 E12s in the same space. standard containers come in 20' and 40' lengths. Roughly 17,500 E or 14,600 F motors will fill 5% of a 20' container, or 2.5% of a 40' container. Based on the assumption above that quantity would be a 1.5 to 3 year supply, and would have a wholesale value between $25,000-$30,000. The contents of a filled 20' container could be worth as little as $500,000 to as much as $1,200,000 for a full 40' container. A smart vendor is going to make sure he get's his money back on his investment.
If I invest $1,000,000 I would want a minimum 10% annual return. If it takes 1 year to sell out what I bought, I want at least $1,100,000 back in my pocket after all expenses including my salary and benefits. If it's two years, I want $1,210,000 back, 3 years $1,331,000 back. If I can't do that, then I've lost money.
Bob
So, has anyone actually phoned Quest and asked them?
:confused2:
My job as a customer is not to figure out how Quest could market these motors and make a profit on them. My job is to decide whether or not I would buy them if I had the chance. My answer to that question is affirmative.
Even if I was to try to tackle the marketing question, it wouldn't matter since I don't work for Quest Aerospace. I can philosophize and speculate all day and it won't accomplish anything. Quest doesn't want my thoughts on their business plan, they want my business.
I would buy plenty of these motors if they were ever brought to market. That's the only meaningful information I can provide.
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