Pdr K-21

[dtomko]

Nope. Aftrer NERRF I had a very hectic summer and haven't flown anything. This has jogged my interest, however. If I don't fly it sooner, I am planning to go to the METRA launch in early October to fly the GT.

Drew

 

[dwmzmm]

Originally posted by dtomko
Nope. Aftrer NERRF I had a very hectic summer and haven't flown anything. This has jogged my interest, however. If I don't fly it sooner, I am planning to go to the METRA launch in early October to fly the GT.

Drew

When you do fly it, post pics please...

 

[dtomko]

Will do. I may try it out this weekend at the school field.

Drew

 

[Gus]

Drew, Andy,

Missed this thread the first time around. Really glad somebody bumped it. Those are two beautiful rockets!

I have a PDR clone sitting in my build dumptser in the basement.

As you probably know, I'm a huge fan of paper wraps. But this one always stymied me because of the metalic issue. Drew, your solution was brilliant.

Thanks for sharing the incredible build.

Wow, those are beautiful rockets!

 

[Planet Andy]

Thank you Gus,

As a rookie compared to some of youse guys, I'm glad that a thread I started seems to have lasting value and for Drew to be steering it now is kind of like an honor...My PDR GT K21 came out pretty good...Drew's is a museum piece!
cheers all! Let's get em painted before the snow starts to fly eh?
Andy

 

[dtomko]

Thanks, Gus! I was stuck on this project for more than a year until I hit on the Trim Monokote idea.

Andy, thanks, and I am sorry I hijacked your thread!

It's really too bad we couldn't get them launched at NERRF. That drag race would have been a sight!

I had the original as a kid, and finishing it was a pain; you didn't even get decals for the "United States" back then. I gave up and just painted mine silver.

Drew

 

[Gus]

I remember having the kit where you had to carve the window recesses out of the balsa and how worried I was about doing that. I honestly can't remember building the rest of the rocket or how it turned out. All I remember is my terrible fear at having to make irreversible changes to the cone. I remember thinking what a good job I had done when I was finished, even though it probably looked like crud.

 

[Planet Andy]

Originally posted by dtomko
Thanks, Gus! I was stuck on this project for more than a year until I hit on the Trim Monokote idea.

Andy, thanks, and I am sorry I hijacked your thread!

It's really too bad we couldn't get them launched at NERRF. That drag race would have been a sight!

I had the original as a kid, and finishing it was a pain; you didn't even get decals for the "United States" back then. I gave up and just painted mine silver.
Drew

Like I said it's really an honor and you or anyone else building the PDR GT should continue to hijack it...I call it contributing to the thread. Exactly as I had intended (rubbing hands together diabolically)"...hmmm....I shall start a thread which gets thousands of hits..." Drew you are a detailing deity and one of the handful of people on TRF who I personally have met...Well there's NERFF3 for a drag race retake...hopefully we can both attend on the same day.

Andy

 

[dwmzmm]

Originally posted by Gus
I remember having the kit where you had to carve the window recesses out of the balsa and how worried I was about doing that. I honestly can't remember building the rest of the rocket or how it turned out. All I remember is my terrible fear at having to make irreversible changes to the cone. I remember thinking what a good job I had done when I was finished, even though it probably looked like crud.

The carving out the window recesses is one "fear" I have going into the start of this project.

Did you guys get the "UNITED STATES w/flag" decals that goes to
the side of the Gemini spacecraft? I don't see it included in my
PDR - 21 kit. I may get the decal set from Tango Papa Decals to
insure I have all the markings to make this kit complete.

 

[Gus]

Originally posted by dwmzmm
The carving out the window recesses is one "fear" I have going into the start of this project.

The biggest difference between then and now is that then I did the carving with an X-acto.

Today I'd do it with a Dremel.

Judging from their shape, that's how Max Faget and his guys put the recesses in on the initial models of the real thing, with a big honkin' Dremel.

Wish I'd had one as a kid.


And Andy, regarding your modeling, at least you have the kahunas to put photos of ALL your models up on your website. I only have the guts to show my best ones. And when it comes to true artistic talent we're not even in the same league. Mine is strictly limited to modeling. Count yourself blessed you haven't heard ME sing. Loved the live version of the Burt Rutan song. That's REAL talent I wish I had. Let us know when the next MS Benefit Planet Andy Comedy Hour takes place.

 

[dcastle]

Originally posted by dwmzmm
The carving out the window recesses is one "fear" I have going into the start of this project.

I had the same fear. It was easier than I thought it would be, just measure the area carefully.


Did you guys get the "UNITED STATES w/flag" decals that goes to
the side of the Gemini spacecraft? I don't see it included in my
PDR - 21 kit. I may get the decal set from Tango Papa Decals to
insure I have all the markings to make this kit complete.

My GT is presently in the "build, sanding sealer applied but awaiting paint and decals" pile of perhaps 20 or 30 rockets now. But I've been trying to figure out how to detail the spacecraft portion as well -- it really needs the white "United States" and the flag on it to be in sync accuracy wise with the rest of the model. Where to find those decals, I don't know (the PDR kit, though great, didn't have them).

 

[dwmzmm]

Originally posted by dcastle
My GT is presently in the "build, sanding sealer applied but awaiting paint and decals" pile of perhaps 20 or 30 rockets now. But I've been trying to figure out how to detail the spacecraft portion as well -- it really needs the white "United States" and the flag on it to be in sync accuracy wise with the rest of the model. Where to find those decals, I don't know (the PDR kit, though great, didn't have them).

Tango Papa Decals of the 1/54 scale GT-3 includes the Gemini
spacecraft decals. I e-mailed Tom Baker himself (owner of Tango
Papa Decals) over the weekend with that question. He gave me
an affirmative response.

 

[Barry in IN]

Does Tango Papa have a website anymore?
I've tried all the links to it, and get a no-go.

 

[dtomko]

Originally posted by Barry in IN
Does Tango Papa have a website anymore?
I've tried all the links to it, and get a no-go.

This just worked for me:
https://www.tangopapadecals.com/

Drew

 

[Barry in IN]

And, of course, it worked for me too this time!
Thanks.

 

[Planet Andy]

Originally posted by Gus
.....
And Andy, regarding your modeling, at least you have the kahunas to put photos of ALL your models up on your website. I only have the guts to show my best ones. And when it comes to true artistic talent we're not even in the same league. Mine is strictly limited to modeling. Count yourself blessed you haven't heard ME sing. Loved the live version of the Burt Rutan song. That's REAL talent I wish I had. Let us know when the next MS Benefit Planet Andy Comedy Hour takes place.

Thank you Gus, yep Kahunas I got....it's the time to document the builds, come up with some clever hyperbole and post them that I've slipped up a little on...I sort of need to allocate rocket time each week and the building phase takes priority then weather permitting flying. I also need to remove some of them that have escaped earth's surly bonds never to return...Websites have a way of all of a sudden consisting of 300-400 elements...yikes! And thank you for the compliments on the song which owes as much to the Beatles "Honey Pie" as well as the Lindbergh Hop when he was all the rage...I'll bet you can sing just fine, it ain't like I'm Pavorotti or nuthin! When/If we do another benefit it will be billed as the Second Planet Andy Comedy Balls...it's mostly comedy after all...If it becomes a plan It'll make headlines on the website.
Thanks for listening...And now...show us your K21s!

A T

 

[Barry in IN]

OK, I was inspired.
I just ordered a bunch of rocket parts, including enough to make two Titans- one Gemini, and one USAF missile.

More importantly, I'm also walking around now singing "Burt Rutan, Burt Rutan".

 

[Planet Andy]

Originally posted by Barry in IN
OK, I was inspired.
I just ordered a bunch of rocket parts, including enough to make two Titans- one Gemini, and one USAF missile.

More importantly, I'm also walking around now singing "Burt Rutan, Burt Rutan".

I am like sooooo sorry

 

[dwmzmm]

Originally posted by dtomko
Nope. Aftrer NERRF I had a very hectic summer and haven't flown anything. This has jogged my interest, however. If I don't fly it sooner, I am planning to go to the METRA launch in early October to fly the GT.

Drew

Hey Drew, it's early October. Did you get to fly your GT - 3 again?
I'm still monitoring this thread...

 

[dtomko]

Funny you should ask! I just got back from the METRA launch.
Well, it flew . . . . not well, but it flew!
I launched it on 2 C6-3s; I wanted to use B6-4s for the first flight but was out of them. I think the thrust was a bit much because it threw off all 4 plastic fins, one by one as it went up! It went straight for about 50 feet then began to corkscrew and just before burnout turned end over end. Pretty impressive, but it had enough altitude that the chutes opened and it came down with no damage at all. Phew!

Here's ignition.

 

[dtomko]

Here's the twisting smoke trail and the GT turning over before apogee.

 

[dwmzmm]

Originally posted by dtomko
Funny you should ask! I just got back from the METRA launch.
Well, it flew . . . . not well, but it flew!
I launched it on 2 C6-3s; I wanted to use B6-4s for the first flight but was out of them. I think the thrust was a bit much because it threw off all 4 plastic fins, one by one as it went up! It went straight for about 50 feet then began to corkscrew and just before burnout turned end over end. Pretty impressive, but it had enough altitude that the chutes opened and it came down with no damage at all. Phew!

Here's ignition.

That's a hell of a nice ignition picture!! Looks like a real GT -- great job, Drew!

 

[dtomko]

And another shot just before ejection.

I will have to rethink the fins. The attachment points didn't break; the fins must have flexed their way out, which surprised me because it takes a lot of work to get them in the BT slits.
I am thinking of drilling holes in all of them and threading a wire through the holes and around the BT.

Drew

 

[Barry in IN]

I've started on a Titan and need help already.
The old Estes K21 used a JT50 coupler with centering rings around each engine mount tube for appearance (made in Step 5 of the Estes instructions).
The fake mount struts attach to one side of this unit, and the fake nozzle butts against the other side (Steps 9-12).

How long is this section of coupler?

The BT50 couplers I have are one inch long- which looks much longer than these.
I'm guessing it's 1/2 inch, but that may be a little long.

Thanks.

 

[mike_bar]

Originally posted by dtomko on 10-08-2006
I will have to rethink the fins. The attachment points didn't break; the fins must have flexed their way out, which surprised me because it takes a lot of work to get them in the BT slits. [Snip]

Originally posted by dtomko on 11-29-2005
I have figured out a good way to hide the clear fin attachments, though. I am going to put slots in the BT-70 along the lower roll patterns: a set just above where the engine-mount ends and a set near the bottom. The fins will have notched tabs at top and straight tabs on the bottom to secure them. For display, I will slip in the thin fairings that I think went down to the hold down bolts on the bottom of the Titan. [Snip]

Originally posted by dtomko on 04-22-2006
Here's how I did the clear plastic fins on my G-T, avoiding the ring. First, I cut two slits in the outer BT (the inner BT-60 runs from the top of the engine mount all the way to the capsule). I cut the clear plastic a little big and made a notch and a pin on the root edge.

Attachment: Photo of clear fins next to GT.

Drew,

It’s a beautiful model and a slick attachment for the removable fins.

I have some research material on attaching clear fins. This may be a bit late for your Gemini-Titan, but you may find it interesting.

You may want to try using two notched tabs, not just one. Also, you may want the tabs to point down so they lock in place when the rocket accelerates off the pad. Again, it may be too late in your construction to incorporate this style.

I have not build this fin-can yet, but the technique looks good to me. See links below.

I hope it helps in some small way. I really admire your work.

Regards,
Mike


The 1:50 Scale Saturn V Project Update
By Gary Bannister and Dave Snodgrass
January 1998

An Engine Mount for Removable Fins


Source website: Snodgrass's Rocketry Page

 

[mdoyle]

How about a tubular clamp type clear fin can that would slip over the end of the rocket and receive it's support from the motor bulkheads?

That would also solve your display issue since it wouldn't require any thru-holes in the airframe. The tube wouldn't require much pressure from the clamp for retention when you factor in surface area and drag.

Might be a good solution for the single negative aspect (fin retainment) on an otherwise beautiful rocket?

 

[dtomko]

Barry,

I didn't use the couplers and wrapped wire around the engine tubes for a more scale appearance, but I believe the couplers are 1/4". Someone wih the PDR clone (Andy?) could better answer the question.

Mike and mdoyle, those are great references and suggestions! Thanks! It's too late to do anything internally to the rocket, but I can try two notched tabs and have them face down. I thought the face down orientation might make them prone to popping out, but with two that might hold them. I'm not crazy about a wrap-around fin can, but that's also a possibility. I suspect my design allowed the fins to flex way too much and that allowed them to work their way out of the BT. There was no damage to the fins, BTW; even the thin pins on the bottom didn't break off.

Drew

 

[Barry in IN]

Thanks, Drew.

Mdoyle and Mike-
It may be too late for Drew and Planet Andy, but I'm still open to fin attachment ideas!
So, Thanks!
Keep 'em comin'.

 

[mdoyle]

The clamp style fin can I mentioned might be misunderstood; I built one from a flat piece of thin plastic with 90° bends at each end that had holes that received small nylon bolts.

Then the fins were formed by folding the same material to double it up with 90° folds at their roots and glued to the clear clamp while it was still mounted to the rocket (to aid in alignment) with RC-56.

It was self aligning and quick to put on and take off and didn't damage the paint. I think the material I used was a clear box that a neck-tie came in.

For a fin-less display that can also fly, it was the perfect solution.

 

[Barry in IN]

I had one way pictured, but now imagine it differently.

I first thought it was some type of flexible clamp that went around both engine tubes that clamped the fins on. I pictured something that worked like a hose clamp, only "gentler".

Now I imagine something like the clamp used to join two posts in a chain link fence. The fence uses two matching steel straps that join the posts to each other with a through-bolt squeezing it's two halves together around the posts. I picture a variation of that now. The clamp halves would have the fins attached.

Am I close at all?