New product ideas

[daveyfire]

Thinking out loud here, there are other markets to pursue besides hobby motors, too. Don't forget about that. You've got a propellant shop with all the necessary permits-- that's worth a lot of money to several companies.

 

[conman13]

I think the nozzle size "checkers" would be great. Or a nozzle cleaner that will punch all the gunk out to the right size nozzle size.

 

[MarkH]

How much more N-s can you squeeze out of the 76/8000 case with the extra space/ propellant using this type of nozzle?

View attachment 247134

Perhaps a full M or baby N? Maybe use Cocktail so it's not a sledgehammer load.




Pretty similar to this:

https://groveraerospace.com/?p=1830

 

[Loki Research]

Thinking out loud here, there are other markets to pursue besides hobby motors, too. Don't forget about that. You've got a propellant shop with all the necessary permits-- that's worth a lot of money to several companies.

David, I eagerly await your list of companies who find my resources valuable to them. That would help me out. Unfortunately, it would not directly help out the rocketry hobby, but may take time away from it. It would however help keep me floating.

I found that the nozzle throat size checker tools are too cost prohibitive. If they are to be made to any accuracy, they will cost more than the nozzles they check. Take a look at the price of the hole gauges that are available compared to a standard set of calipers. https://www.mcmaster.com/#bore-gauges/=uw78ir
A set of telescoping bore gauges with a good set of calipers would cost far less than any tools I could have made that are needed to check the same range of throat sizes.

How much more N-s can you squeeze out of the 76/8000 case with the extra space/ propellant using this type of nozzle?

The snap ring style nozzle adds about another 1.85" of propellant length to a motor. If you had a 1" core with a propellant density of .06 lb/in^3 you would add 217.32 grams of propellant, or roughly 434 Ns. If the length was added to a .75" core grain, you'd add about 468 Ns. Another gain would be seen in the increased exit diameter. The gain here would depend on several factors but you could expect to see around a 100-300 Ns gain.

 

[Danh]

How about A Loki black propellant ? Thick black smoke similar to a smokey sam.

 

[Loki Research]

How about A Loki black propellant ? Thick black smoke similar to a smokey sam.

This is highly unlikely. The time and money required for one person to do this with a propellant that is well, lowest on demand, that is something I just don't have the capacity to easily do.

If you go back and look at my initial post, you'll notice that all of the items I mentioned are hardware parts that I can have machined quickly on a CNC machine. I did not mention anything about propellant of reloads because I'll have my hands full with that for quite a while. 38's are especially hard to produce due to the time they require to get the delay times accurate.

There is a 1300-1400 Ns 38mm K~650 that I could get out very quickly with my next batch of red propellant if I certified it without motor ejection. If I keep motor ejection, I have no idea how long it would take me to get it ready to send in for certification. I'm really on the fence there.

 

[tbonerocketeer]

There is a 1300-1400 Ns 38mm K~650 that I could get out very quickly with my next batch of red propellant if I certified it without motor ejection. If I keep motor ejection, I have no idea how long it would take me to get it ready to send in for certification. I'm really on the fence there.

Is it possible to certify it without and then add it in the future?

 

[daveyfire]

Start here:

https://www.dodsbir.net/solicitation

Several old solids guys gave me this advice: prove you can do something new and better through a successful program, and then they'll let you show them you can do something existing and cheaper.

It's going to take time and effort, yes, but that's how you grow. And the margins are much better in the professional world than in the hobby world!

 

[RocketHunter]

This is highly unlikely. The time and money required for one person to do this with a propellant that is well, lowest on demand, that is something I just don't have the capacity to easily do.

If you go back and look at my initial post, you'll notice that all of the items I mentioned are hardware parts that I can have machined quickly on a CNC machine. I did not mention anything about propellant of reloads because I'll have my hands full with that for quite a while. 38's are especially hard to produce due to the time they require to get the delay times accurate.

There is a 1300-1400 Ns 38mm K~650 that I could get out very quickly with my next batch of red propellant if I certified it without motor ejection. If I keep motor ejection, I have no idea how long it would take me to get it ready to send in for certification. I'm really on the fence there.

IMO the delay isn't really that important, especially if it speeds up the time needed to get it certified. A high majority of the rockets that would use that motor already have altimeters and dual deploy, so having motor eject isn't paramount.

 

[Loki Research]

Thanks for the direction David. BTW, I hate the word cheaper. I try my best not to do ANYTHING cheaper, but do it the same or better while doing so for a less expensive cost/price.
All to often people use that word interchangeably with less expensive when it just doesn't work that way, but I'm sure you meant the latter. ;-)

Chris, I'd have to send in 5 more complete reloads to test for motor delay certification on top of the 3 reloads needed if I were to certify it without ejection delay beforehand.

 

[daveyfire]

Thanks for the direction David. BTW, I hate the word cheaper. I try my best not to do ANYTHING cheaper, but do it the same or better while doing so for a less expensive cost/price.
All to often people use that word interchangeably with less expensive when it just doesn't work that way, but I'm sure you meant the latter. ;-)

Yep! That's what I meant. Nothing professional is "cheap"

 

[CarVac]

There is a 1300-1400 Ns 38mm K~650 that I could get out very quickly with my next batch of red propellant if I certified it without motor ejection. If I keep motor ejection, I have no idea how long it would take me to get it ready to send in for certification. I'm really on the fence there.

I'm assuming you can't just send it in and have them designate the delay as "whatever it tests to", right?

I wouldn't mind drawing the line for motor delays at J and leaving it off the K.

 

[chuck5395]

I'm assuming you can't just send it in and have them designate the delay as "whatever it tests to", right?

I wouldn't mind drawing the line for motor delays at J and leaving it off the K.

It would be interesting to find out how many Loki customers need to have a motor delay on K and above motors.

 

[MarkH]

The snap ring style nozzle adds about another 1.85" of propellant length to a motor. If you had a 1" core with a propellant density of .06 lb/in^3 you would add 217.32 grams of propellant, or roughly 434 Ns. If the length was added to a .75" core grain, you'd add about 468 Ns. Another gain would be seen in the increased exit diameter. The gain here would depend on several factors but you could expect to see around a 100-300 Ns gain.

So, based on the new Loki M3464 data you could get probably close to 10,000 Ns out of the 76/8000 case with Loki Blue and a single use AT style nozzle, but probably not an N. I didn't realize the Isp of Loki Blue was so high. The CTI M2245 IMAX produces almost 10000 Ns out of ~ 5100 grams and, and the Loki M3464 produces about 9400 Ns from about 4500 grams.

 

[DizWolf]

Chris, I'd have to send in 5 more complete reloads to test for motor delay certification on top of the 3 reloads needed if I were to certify it without ejection delay beforehand.

As someone looking at the 38/1200 and that K reload....mark me down for "no delay" Anything it goes in will have electronics.

edit: just saw you mentioned it as a K650 ish red. Is the blue K (on the site) already going out to test, or on waiting until later?

 

[stealth6]

Loki flyer here (who just today got three new K reloads, yay!). For what it's worth, I myself have no use for motor ejection in a K motor. I DO want lots of tracking smoke though!

s6

 

[DizWolf]

Loki flyer here (who just today got three new K reloads, yay!). For what it's worth, I myself have no use for motor ejection in a K motor. I DO want lots of tracking smoke though!

Much agreed. Looking at a J1000 in a 2.6" rocket the time to apogee is 16 seconds. In a 54mm it's 19 seconds. Putting these loads in anything fatter is kind of silly (to me....just my opinion here). So if skipping the delay makes getting them certified easier.... I say go for it.

 

[Loki Research]

Dave,

As I clicked reply in another thread earlier today, it had been closed moments before and I lost all comments, eloquent as they were. I really need to learn to type those things up in a Word.doc first so I don't loose them.
I wanted you to know I took nothing you said in the wrong way. Once again however, about the time certain thoughts and ideas begin to be expressed and see the light of day, others with better connections and business relationships get their way to have these opposing opinions silenced once again.


Thought of the day -

There is always one bad apple in the bunch that spoils things for the rest of us, makes others decide to stop producing unique kits, cuts others profits and their ability to operate, which ultimately affects and upsets many others in the business which upsets customers,... and does all these things for their sole benefit. If we could all learn to treat each other fairly, respect others ideas as "others" ideas and not their own, not severely undercut others for their own personal gain, but instead treat others as they would like to be treated themselves, we would all get along a lot better in this world of hobby rocketry. We would all have better profits, better products and better offerings for our customers, and most importantly, we would all have much, much happier customers. Unfortunately for all of us, some people just don't want to have it that way.

So, based on the new Loki M3464 data you could get probably close to 10,000 Ns out of the 76/8000 case with Loki Blue and a single use AT style nozzle, but probably not an N.

Yes that is correct. My numbers show I could possibly get 9,780Ns out of the 76/8000 Loki Blue with a single use nozzle, but not an N motor. I realize now that I failed to account for the increase in chamber pressure that the added propellant would cause, which can affect the grain geometry. I would not be able to get an N out of this case with the blue. The required throat is too large.

Loki Red would be the ideal candidate for an N motor, but I don't know if the liner would hold up to a 5 second burn. If it did, it would just barely get there. Keep in mind, to do this, you have to get away from the "one grain size fits all" approach. That method works well when you have a limited number of grains and need them all to fit any number of motor configurations. This frees up a lot of time and space, and costs less in tooling. However it also limits your motors performance capabilities. The grains for the M-3464 are specific for that reload only, as are the blue grains in the M-1650 LC and the 76/3600 LC (Loki Cocktail) They won't work for the L-1482 of M-2550. So I have to keep more cast blue propellant in stock overall now. It's not very good for inventory management, but it's great for ultimate performance in a custom made reload.

I DO want lots of tracking smoke though!

That's tough to do in a 38mm. If you can get enough smoke length in there so it's still burning at apogee (when it slows down enough for it to be dense enough to see) then it is useful. The small diameter of 38mm severely limits me on how much tracking smoke I can get to burn. out the back end. I really don't think you'd have enough smoke to see it at 15k feet. The only way would be to have a full diameter smoke grain, but that eats up propellant space making it a J again, and it also puts a huge thermal load on a 38mm liner that may very easily damage the hardware. I could see the tracking smoke of Kyle's 54/4000 Loki White at 30K' with 10x binoculars, but that was only possible with a redesigned forward closure and a larger diameter smoke grain. I wouldn't be able to get any larger diameter smoke well than what the 38mm is currently at.

Thanks for the comments on the K motor delays. That's what I was hoping to hear, but those are only enough to count on one hand. We shall see. The Blue motor has already been sent in and it's a done deal though. I wasn't expecting a K though.

 

[CarVac]

For my part, I don't think that ultra long tracking smoke is that desirable. If I am flying to 30k I will have a tracker and the smoke trail is a bonus at the best.

 

[thobin]

This is highly unlikely. The time and money required for one person to do this with a propellant that is well, lowest on demand, that is something I just don't have the capacity to easily do.

If you go back and look at my initial post, you'll notice that all of the items I mentioned are hardware parts that I can have machined quickly on a CNC machine. I did not mention anything about propellant of reloads because I'll have my hands full with that for quite a while. 38's are especially hard to produce due to the time they require to get the delay times accurate.

Thats a shame, smokies are one of my favorite, it flies around here as much as any propellant except for maybe white propellant. A smoky is what I used on my first lvl one flight.

There is a 1300-1400 Ns 38mm K~650 that I could get out very quickly with my next batch of red propellant if I certified it without motor ejection. If I keep motor ejection, I have no idea how long it would take me to get it ready to send in for certification. I'm really on the fence there.

As for a ejection charge it is increasingly becoming non essential, I flew the J-1000 with the ejection charge and I drilled it a tad on the short side (still not sure what I was thinking) :confused2: and dang near lost the rocket because of it, I will only trust altimeter based ejection for that monster again.

To much of a risk of human error for a motor that can take you to 10k and past the sound barrier. So go for the no ejection charge 1200 loads, Its smart and quite frankly less of a hassle to let the altimeter do the work. I really don't think you would take a hit on sales for no ejection charges on that size loads.

A 38mm K I mean come on who has that? :headbang:


TA

 

[Loki Research]

A 38mm K I mean come on who has that?

I know a guy or two.

 

[Binder Design]

I know a guy or two.

View attachment 248363

They used to say only Frank Kosdon could do it.

 

[thobin]

So is the blue going to be a K as well?

TA

 

[conman13]

I know a guy or two.

View attachment 248363

hmmmm do I hear a flying case?

 

[RocketHunter]

hmmmm do I hear a flying case?

planning on making that my second flight after I get my L2... Hoping for M2.83 and 20k feet :dark:

 

[markkoelsch]

Scott, I think that a delay is largely a waste of time and effort. I rarely fly anything above an h without dual deploy.

As for the 38-1200 I am interested. I have to wait until early next year due to holiday expenditures, but it is on the short list. I like motors that have the ability to spank a rocket, so to speak. If you can get a certified k out of it too so much the better.


Mark Koelsch
Sent from my iPhone using Rocketry Forum

 

[eggplant]

A 38-1200 case is certainly on my list, and more reloads for it would make it look even sweeter.

 

[Loki Research]

"Without healthy profits, real innovation and growth are dead for all but one or two."


THIS. I wonder if the same thing is starting to happen with high power kits.

Nat Kinsey

There's no need to wonder when you see if happening right in front of you. ;-)

They used to say only Frank Kosdon could do it.

I'll take that as a compliment Mike. Thank you very much.
BTW, you're the other guy. I know. ;-)

I know there are some east coast fields that have fairly low waivers and flying larger rockets on little sledgehammer motors to 2,000-3,000 feet and popping a chute at the top off motor ejection an be easy, quick and fun, if you can get the delay dialed in right. I use to fly a Rockets R&D 5.5" Standard Arm on a K-550 to ~2,500' and used motor ejection for an easy quick flight. Those are the customers I'm concerned about leaving out, but I still tend to agree with the the consensus here so far, especially with the availability of many small & inexpensive altimeters on the market these days.

There will be an announcement coming on these motors soon.

 

[blackbrandt]

I truthfully fly anything 38mm and larger with a full delay for the tracking smoke. I never use delays.

 

[thobin]

If you go back and look at my initial post, you'll notice that all of the items I mentioned are hardware parts that I can have machined quickly on a CNC machine. I did not mention anything about propellant of reloads because I'll have my hands full with that for quite a while. 38's are especially hard to produce due to the time they require to get the delay times accurate.

Hardware suggestions:

Nozzle carrier for the 54mm 1200 to 2000 case
A 54mm 400 to 600 size case. (I class for EX use or other wise)
29mm cases for EX use or otherwise.
38mm 1800 case! :headbang:


TA