Intrepid-2A Scratch Build

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Delta-IV

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I've been away for a bit...but have been ;) secretly ;) working on my first scratch built non-scale rocket when I can. It's a bit of a knock off my my son's Intrepid.

I plan to fly the rocket sometime in June, it is of a design that is Experimental to say the least, will fly it "out in the boonies"...hope all goes well...photos and video will follow.

Here is a teaser photo.
 
OOOKayyyy! Considered me teased. I had a TS clearence. Obviously you work for an aerospace corps or the govment...

By crackie...


C
 
Breaking News.........a photo has been smuggled out of the GatorWorks as is now available for downloading............















Has anyone ever tried this stunt I am about to do???
 
I love the idea but will it actually glide.

--- Ron
 
Originally posted by e42
I love the idea but will it actually glide.

--- Ron

Well, that's the plan, I will have flaparons with an elastic thread to raise the flaps once the glider has separated from the booster at ejection charge. The bottom part of the wing is actally on the booster and it will overlap the glider wing to hold down the flaps during ascent.

I also plan to have one flaparon slightly higher to cause a slow turn to keep it over the launch field and with the right amount of ballast to keep it from nosing in or stalling too much.
 
Delta,

Sounds like you've got a cool project here, in that instead of an internal core pod, you actually split the BT itself to separate the glider from the 'pod'. Having elevon hold-downs installed on this detachable section should make for a no fuss boost, assuming alignment integrity.

Is that standard foamboard you used for the glider wings? Seems so, that stuff can be heavier than youd think and may drive the CG aft. How large are the elevons going to be? Hard to make that out on the plans you linked.

It appears you've based this on BT60 and are using a D12 here, probably good choices if you arent overly penalized by the fmbd's aft weight. What's the end up empty weight going to look like?

Also, with the apparent lack of dihedral, you dont want much of a difference in elevon deflection to induce a turn, in fact, due to inherent differences in foamboard warpages, you may not need any real difference deflection wise, or perhaps 1/16" so. Reason this may be noteworthy on your design is that while deltoids with no dihedral are workable, they ARE rather finicky in roll, and you can easily end up with undesirable amounts of banking instead of flat turning. Hence safer to have the least amount of 'roll axis differentiations' possible.

BTW, since you're a ROCK guy, exactly how large/small is that new site you guys are on? I'd love to come up, but only if I can realistically recover my junk.

Looking forward to your upcoming flights of this. Flights of these sorts of things can be rather dramatic (either way :eek: :D )
 
Originally posted by Delta-IV
I've been away for a bit...but have been ;) secretly ;) working on my first scratch built non-scale rocket when I can. It's a bit of a knock off my my son's Intrepid.

I plan to fly the rocket sometime in June, it is of a design that is Experimental to say the least, will fly it "out in the boonies"...hope all goes well...photos and video will follow.

Here is a teaser photo.

eewwwwwww
Now it smells like socks...
 
Originally posted by AstronMike
Delta,

Sounds like you've got a cool project here, in that instead of an internal core pod, you actually split the BT itself to separate the glider from the 'pod'. Having elevon hold-downs installed on this detachable section should make for a no fuss boost, assuming alignment integrity.

Is that standard foamboard you used for the glider wings? Yes Seems so, that stuff can be heavier than youd think and may drive the CG aft. How large are the elevons going to be? Approx 5 inches by 1.25 inches Hard to make that out on the plans you linked.

It appears you've based this on BT60 and are using a D12 here, probably good choices if you arent overly penalized by the fmbd's aft weight. What's the end up empty weight going to look like? looking at approx 12 oz

Also, with the apparent lack of dihedral, you dont want much of a difference in elevon deflection to induce a turn, in fact, due to inherent differences in foamboard warpages, you may not need any real difference deflection wise, or perhaps 1/16" so. Reason this may be noteworthy on your design is that while deltoids with no dihedral are workable, they ARE rather finicky in roll, and you can easily end up with undesirable amounts of banking instead of flat turning. Hence safer to have the least amount of 'roll axis differentiations' possible. yep don't want it to roll into a death sprial for sure....I plan to do some toss flights from a hill...If I can find one...will avoid the interstate bridges as they are our most common hills done here.

BTW, since you're a ROCK guy, exactly how large/small is that new site you guys are on? I'd love to come up, but only if I can realistically recover my junk. pretty small, but I believe the club is looking into a larger site

Looking forward to your upcoming flights of this. Flights of these sorts of things can be rather dramatic (either way :eek: :D )

--Fixed quote heading--
 
Rocket/Glider build complete. Will launch it on a F20-4W this weekend, weather and work permitting.

Attached is photo of the rocket as of last week.

Crossing my fingers...... RockSim estimates 950 feet apoogee, release at ~40 feet per second velocity, has a built-in slight right hand turn....video of its success or failure to follow.
 
Another Thunderbirds-inspired paint job - I love it! REALLY good looking ship; best of luck with the flight.
 
I love the idea but will it actually glide.

You can make just about anything light and airplane-shaped glide (or sort-of glide) with the right trim. :)

-- Roger
 
BTW, since you're a ROCK guy, exactly how large/small is that new site you guys are on? I'd love to come up, but only if I can realistically recover my junk.

Answering for Carl ....

Our field isn't very big - we're looking for something larger (see https://www.r-o-c-k.org/page-launch-site-3.html). We're limited to G motors or smaller and a maximum altitude of about 2000' for smaller rockets (lower for larger rockets). In spite of that, we haven't had many rockets lost to the nearby RETs. Tom and Brian have gotten good at figuring out how to position the launch pads to compensate for any wind.

-- Roger
https://www.r-o-c-k.org/
 
I plan to do some toss flights from a hill...If I can find one...will avoid the interstate bridges as they are our most common hills down here.

Many boost-gliders are hard to trim because they don't hand-toss very easily. When I was younger, I discovered one way to test them is to use a long rod - I think I used a bamboo fishing pole. Hang the glider from the end of the rod; raise the glider into the air; then jerk the rod to release the glider.

-- Roger
 
Many boost-gliders are hard to trim because they don't hand-toss very easily. When I was younger, I discovered one way to test them is to use a long rod - I think I used a bamboo fishing pole. Hang the glider from the end of the rod; raise the glider into the air; then jerk the rod to release the glider.

-- Roger

Well I wasn't able to find a suitable hill:(....and I did a couple of low, low speed hand tosses...so basically, I am making my best guess at the trim...I went a bit conservative, so if it stalls, and re-stalls...hopefully by the time it gets close to the ground it will be at a safe crashing speed.:rolleyes:

I will bring with me to the ROCK Launch this Saturday if I don't have to work...I probably won't fly it until Sunday, when I can take it to Palm Bay (more room, if it starts to fly away).
 
Answering for Carl ....

Our field isn't very big - we're looking for something larger (see https://www.r-o-c-k.org/page-launch-site-3.html). We're limited to G motors or smaller and a maximum altitude of about 2000' for smaller rockets (lower for larger rockets). In spite of that, we haven't had many rockets lost to the nearby RETs. Tom and Brian have gotten good at figuring out how to position the launch pads to compensate for any wind.

-- Roger
https://www.r-o-c-k.org/

Roger,

The reason I am interested is not from a rocket standpoint, as I only fly gliders, and usually larger than you'd expect on a given size motor. If lucky, I may be able to make it up there this Saturday (would love to see Carl's Intrepid firsthand and may fly the good ole EconoGlider to motivate him some) if there is an extra pad setup for 1/4 and 3/8". Yes, I use a 3/8 for big light gliders nowadays even if 'lower powered'.

Might have to shoot Brianc a PM and ask him too
 
I will bring with me to the ROCK Launch this Saturday if I don't have to work...I probably won't fly it until Sunday, when I can take it to Palm Bay (more room, if it starts to fly away).

Good luck. Let us know how it flies.

--- Ron
 
You know... Radio control gear has gotten real cheap and real small;)
 
You know... Radio control gear has gotten real cheap and real small;)


Scott,

I've had plenty of people telling me to start converting my designs over to RC, including myself at times. I will probably do so in the future, but for now I basically *have* to use the old AstronMike Econo Approach.

Most of my 'midsize' gliders only cost around 2-4 dollars to construct and are decently flyable on D12's at $3 each. Even if you add in the cheaper but small RC gear/radios, that's likely an extra $100. That can get me more gliders and a LOT more flights instead.

Even my largest mega sized jobs dont cost but around 5-12 to make. When, not if, I start going into RC it will likely be on one of these at first. How does something around 1000 in sq wing area, only 16z (probably with gear at that), and makeable for $5 (glider itself) sound? ;)
 
You know... Radio control gear has gotten real cheap and real small;)

Yes, if rocket flies straight and stable...that is the next mod to do...provided the glider survives.

Didn't want to trash an RC system if the boost phase is disasterous, I have thought about jsut doing a captive flight first..and still may????.
 
Launched at 10:14 AM 8/5/07 in Palm Bay Florida, Engine F20-4W, Winds from West 5-7 Mph. Temp 85, Skies Pt Cloudy.


Goals:

1. Stable Launch to Apogee
2. Glider Separation
3. Booster Recovery
4. Glider Stable Glide
5. Glider Sucessfull Landing

Goal 1 accomplished....rocket flew straight and true with minimal roll observed.

Goals 2-5 not met this flight: At apogee, the nose cone did not come off, thereby not allowing the glider to separate or most importantly the parachute. The rocket then performed the programmed "lawn dart" maneuver and impacted approx 100 feet to the southeast at a high rate of speed.

Fortunately, the major damage was only done to the forward 12 inches of both the booster and glider. Gotta love our sandy soil here in Florida. Minor damage to the glider at the aft attach point and one flaperon.

IT WILL FLY AGAIN.

Here is the video of the event: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x3MElfojHmA apologies for any offense to my last audio utterance in the video....

Attached is a post-launch photo:
 
Sorry about the lawn dart, hate those things.:mad:

What's the post mortum? Did the ejection charge go off? Any obvious reason for the ejection failure?

Just a thought, could you have lost most of the ejection pressure out the seam between the glider and the rocket? Would an internal tube from engine to nose cone work?

Luck...
 
Sorry about the lawn dart, hate those things.:mad:

What's the post mortum? Did the ejection charge go off? Any obvious reason for the ejection failure?

Just a thought, could you have lost most of the ejection pressure out the seam between the glider and the rocket? Would an internal tube from engine to nose cone work?

Luck...


The ejection charge did go off, you can hear it in the video and there was no evidence of blow by...no exhaust streams. An internal bulkhead showed hot gas deposits...so my theory is the cone and chute may have been too tight??

.....still looking it over.....befroe I rebuild....
 
Delta IV,

Sorry to hear about this occurrence, but at least the Intrepid has proven rocket stable and the damage isnt severe.

From the looks of this, it appears you have about 30" of BT-60 being pressurized by an F20's ejection charge. That should have blown this apart even if something was on the tight side. For instance, I have a glider or two that always ejects with force with an F20, and moving around 8z in doing so.

What I do to test whether something will eject correctly on any glider depending thereupon is what I call the 'blow test'.

Hook up and prep your glider as if ready for boost, without motor though. Then, pucker up and blow into the MMT with a hard quick breath of air. Whatever you intend the ejection charge to move should certainly do so when you do this. If there an ejection gas leakage, you can find this by running your hand along the seam or anywhere you suspect such is occurring.

Bear in mind that the ejection charge of any AP motor is going to be LOT stronger than your 'blow force', so anything that passes this test several times is typically good to go.

As to your design, double check anything that has to slide or separate, such as that rear pod/mount on your Intrepid. I dont think the chute shouldve been that tight, it cant be over 18-24" inside a BT-60. If there isnt any ejection gas leakage, then the blow test should separate the rear section from the glider and likely dislodge the glider from the nose cone pegs.

Another sneaky thing with ejection pressure leakage. If its occurring more than a few inches ahead of the motor itself, you wont tend to have any residue at the fault area. You do have some sort of bulkhead, and that will 'collect' most of the forward solid particle matter from the charge, so less to 'dust' the seams.

Overall, assuming at least a decent charge on the motor, theres only two things that can cause nonsep on such designs. Either something is too tight or there is a pressure leakage. Since you know what youre doing, its easy to eliminate the tightness part, particularly if you give the rear ejection part a good going over. Once repaired, eliminate any tightness you can, then do several blow tests. You may need to use a small piece of MMT tubing to help to blow in with if you cant get your lips around the rear correctly (did I actually say that :surprised:).

BTW, what is the span of the wing here, and how long is the chord? Might make one of these myself with the lightest stuff sitting around here.
 
Delta IV,

Sorry to hear about this occurrence, but at least the Intrepid has proven rocket stable and the damage isnt severe.

From the looks of this, it appears you have about 30" of BT-60 being pressurized by an F20's ejection charge. That should have blown this apart even if something was on the tight side. For instance, I have a glider or two that always ejects with force with an F20, and moving around 8z in doing so.

What I do to test whether something will eject correctly on any glider depending thereupon is what I call the 'blow test'.

Hook up and prep your glider as if ready for boost, without motor though. Then, pucker up and blow into the MMT with a hard quick breath of air. Whatever you intend the ejection charge to move should certainly do so when you do this. If there an ejection gas leakage, you can find this by running your hand along the seam or anywhere you suspect such is occurring.

Bear in mind that the ejection charge of any AP motor is going to be LOT stronger than your 'blow force', so anything that passes this test several times is typically good to go.

As to your design, double check anything that has to slide or separate, such as that rear pod/mount on your Intrepid. I dont think the chute shouldve been that tight, it cant be over 18-24" inside a BT-60. If there isnt any ejection gas leakage, then the blow test should separate the rear section from the glider and likely dislodge the glider from the nose cone pegs.

Another sneaky thing with ejection pressure leakage. If its occurring more than a few inches ahead of the motor itself, you wont tend to have any residue at the fault area. You do have some sort of bulkhead, and that will 'collect' most of the forward solid particle matter from the charge, so less to 'dust' the seams.

Overall, assuming at least a decent charge on the motor, theres only two things that can cause nonsep on such designs. Either something is too tight or there is a pressure leakage. Since you know what youre doing, its easy to eliminate the tightness part, particularly if you give the rear ejection part a good going over. Once repaired, eliminate any tightness you can, then do several blow tests. You may need to use a small piece of MMT tubing to help to blow in with if you cant get your lips around the rear correctly (did I actually say that :surprised:).

BTW, what is the span of the wing here, and how long is the chord? Might make one of these myself with the lightest stuff sitting around here.

Thanks Mike,

I am still perplexed a bit on the cause. I did do the low pressure "blow tests"...to see if I had any leaks in the long seams of the booster BT, It worked. The only thing I can guess is that the hook on the nose cone might have seated too tightly on the Glider with the launch forces. It was broken off after recovery, so it's just a guess, but I feel a good possible cause though.

I really didn't need the hook as I later decided to add on the booster nose a aerosealing patch to cover the gap between the two halfs of the nose. That in itself would hold the glider in place at the nose with dowels/tubes at the Aft.

So I am rebuilding it.....I will post the wingform data later tonight.
 
Update:

Flight Number 2 was made this morning.

The Combo launched with a F20-4W. At slightly past apogee the ejection charge released the re-built glider and it performed a slow left hand turn. The dive angle was steep (about 2 times what I wanted) and it landed 16 seconds after launch. Landing speed was estimated to be about 30 MPH.

Tall grass and sandy soil reduced the damage to the nose section which only took about 30 minutes to fix. The Booster recovered nicely on a 18 inch chute about 40 seconds after launch.

Looking at the video, I need to remove some ballast in the nose and increase the flap travel up a bit. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nHZauqCX4Mg
 
Sorry about the lawn dart, hate those things.:mad:

What's the post mortum? Did the ejection charge go off? Any obvious reason for the ejection failure?

Just a thought, could you have lost most of the ejection pressure out the seam between the glider and the rocket? Would an internal tube from engine to nose cone work?

Luck...

Handeman,

I did re-build it with an internal tube for the ejection charge gases....it worked perfectly today...I just need anoter trim flight and hopefully I'll have a great rocket/glider.

Thanks,
-Delta-
 
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