Insurance Deductible

[bobkrech]

Just like NAR, TRA has their insurance information on-line. https://www.tripoli.org/Launches/LaunchInsuranceForms/tabid/178/Default.aspx

Both also list who to contact for more information.

If you believe you need more insurance than the NAR or TRA policies provide, you can also purchase a personal umbrella insurance policy from your insurance agent. You can usually get a several million dollar liability policy for a few hundred dollars a year.

Bob

 

[Pat_B]

A $5,000 deductible makes the insurance virtually useless considering the small number of claims that have occurred over the years. But sticking with the same insurance company for decades isn't likely the smartest idea either.

 

[4kids49]

Accidents are always stressful for everyone involved. People can get weird in an accident. The first thing is to always exchange as much info. as possible, regardless who is at fault. Take pictures of damage, vehicles involved, license plates etc. Take notes. Let the head of the launch know, and make people aware. With the NAR, and probably TRA, people must file an incident report before anything happens, at least with NAR insurance. This should be done quickly, whether people intend to use the NAR or TRA insurance or not. The NAR or TRA should at least be able to help establish facts, especially with a non cooperative person that is involved. Lawsuits are a PITA for everyone involved. NAR people are covered by NAR at TRA events, but I am not sure if this applies to EX motors. I have seen situations where a person caused damage and tried to do everything correctly with the right insurance agency. The party to which damage was caused was uncooperative, would not exchange info., would not talk to any insurance agency, wanted cash at his / her own discretion, and threatened lawsuits. I am guessing that this was stressful. Stuff happens. Accidents stink. If everyone tries to do the noble and correct thing, it won't be so bad. If people do the correct and noble thing and the other party doesn't, at least damages can be contained.

 

[luke strawwalker]

Who specifically does the policy protect? Does the policy protect the club only, or does it also protect all of the individual fliers too? Does it extend to individual club members? Guest fliers?

Part of the reason for flying at club launches is that the club is supposed to provide a safe environment. That includes having appropriate flight rules and also having RSOs and LCOs enforcing those rules and using their experience and judgement to conduct a safe launch. Obviously the flier takes some responsibility --- but if the flier pays club dues or pays a fee to join the launch, and the club sets up all the launch pads, launch controllers, flight line, viewing area, parking area, etc., the RSO inspects and clears the rocket, club members supervise the igniter hookup and launch angle, the LCO does the countdown and presses the button --- in that case, I think the club has taken on a lot of responsibility for the outcome of the flight.

NAR insurance covers NAR members and chartered NAR sections conducting "rocketry activities conducted in accordance with the model rocket safety code"... which by definition excludes activities NOT conducted per the MRSC... IOW, if something is done contrary to the provisions of the MRSC, they have an "out" and legally don't have to pay the claim, therefore leaving it all ultimately on the individual flyer or the club or landowner or anyone else the aggrieved party might name in a lawsuit... NAR insurance does NOT cover nonmembers as I understand it who may be flying with the club at a sanctioned launch... So if someone is not a NAR member, they're "on their own dime" if something happens anyway...

Later! OL JR

 

[luke strawwalker]

What if you rocket killed somebody, and the family wanted $5 million?

I'm just throwing it out there as a question, not trying to be argumentative. obviously it is commendable that you feel a sense of responsibility, and I feel the same way. I'm sure most people feel that way, up to a point, and that's the real catch --- where is that point?

You can sue anybody for virtually anything... The system is set up that way... At least that's how our lawyer explained it to me.... Waivers and agreements signed waiving ones right to sue notwithstanding... There's ways around even that for a good lawyer... You basically never give up your right to sue and are never completely immune from being sued... At least that's how it was explained to me...

At any rate... Say your rocket killed someone and they sued for $5 million. If they won the case and the full amount, and the insurance company found that the flight was conducted per the MRSC and was therefore covered, they would pay the $2 million in coverage (less the $5000 deductible) and you'd be responsible for the other $3 million....

Sorta like a situation where a club official at a launch violatednthe clubs own "no sparky motor" rule and allowed some SLI kids to launch on a sparky and start a grass fire that very nearly burned under the fence and would have burnt up a couple hundred acres of standing wheat nearly ready to harvest.... That can get REALLY expensive real quick... The neighbors got after the landowner and made it known they'd be sued if something like that happened, the landowners trust was violated by the club that apparently agreed to the no sparky motor rule, so the club lost their field... Can't blame the landowner either... They stuck their neck out and nearly got it lopped off....

Sure makes you think, don't it? It darn well should!

Later! OL JR

 

[luke strawwalker]

Honestly you don't have to attend launch.... If my rocket lands and kills someone or damages property it's not my fault there is never a guarantee on where it will land all you can do is make a rocket that will fly and fall straight which again no guarantee... What happens if a motor fails like the ejection charge doesn't detonate and the rocket comes in ballistic hits and destroys a car due to that? Best thing to do if your worried take the vehicle that has a comprehensive insurance plan or life insurance... Again I still ask the question about acts of god who would be responsible for that?

Your confusing a weather event or natural disaster (so called "act of God") which is unpreventable and inescapable with a "malfunction with no apparent reason", which of course is a misnomer since anything manmade and operating on mechanical principles can be determined to have failed or malfunctioned, even if the ultimate causative factor or contributing agent is undiscoverable... IOW just because the cause of a failure cannot be determined does not negate the fact that a failure occurred and someone is at fault, or at the very least financially responsible for damages.... IOW if your rocket hit my car and perforated it, for whatever reason, the simple fact is 1) my car has X amount of damage, and2) it was your rocket that damages it. Wouldn't stop me from suing you and likely winning if we couldn't work it out amicably... If the ejection charge failed, that might give you grounds to sue the motor manufacturer, but that doesn't absolve you of responsibility as an " act of God'... The facts are the vehicle was damaged and your rocket did the damage...

a- hole proclamations of " you know the risks when you come to a launch" won't protect you either, nor "rocket launch proceed at your own risk" signs.... "Good faith efforts" to do things right and safe and " due diligence" will help but isn't surefire protection either...
Later! OL JR

 

[luke strawwalker]

Dont go to a launch if your that worried about it. Dont drive yor mercedes. You know the risk going out there. $hit happens

Typical HPR yahoo response... Another reason there'll NEVER be HPR allowed out here and I'm glad the nearest HPR field is 2 hours away...

See how far that gets you in court!

Later! OL JR

 

[luke strawwalker]

A $5,000 deductible makes the insurance virtually useless considering the small number of claims that have occurred over the years. But sticking with the same insurance company for decades isn't likely the smartest idea either.

There was awhile back in the 90s when the insurance was unavailable IIRC... I remember reading about it... NAR finally got the present insurance after the old insurance company refused to underwrite the policy anymore and that's the insurance they have now... Of course to get that they had to make the insurance mandatory as part of NAR membership. Which before it was voluntary and you paid an additional $26 bucks a year for insurance if you wanted it....

Later! OL JR

 

[Alethins]

Your confusing a weather event or natural disaster (so called "act of God") which is unpreventable and inescapable with a "malfunction with no apparent reason", which of course is a misnomer since anything manmade and operating on mechanical principles can be determined to have failed or malfunctioned, even if the ultimate causative factor or contributing agent is undiscoverable... IOW just because the cause of a failure cannot be determined does not negate the fact that a failure occurred and someone is at fault, or at the very least financially responsible for damages.... IOW if your rocket hit my car and perforated it, for whatever reason, the simple fact is 1) my car has X amount of damage, and2) it was your rocket that damages it. Wouldn't stop me from suing you and likely winning if we couldn't work it out amicably... If the ejection charge failed, that might give you grounds to sue the motor manufacturer, but that doesn't absolve you of responsibility as an " act of God'... The facts are the vehicle was damaged and your rocket did the damage...

a- hole proclamations of " you know the risks when you come to a launch" won't protect you either, nor "rocket launch proceed at your own risk" signs.... "Good faith efforts" to do things right and safe and " due diligence" will help but isn't surefire protection either...
Later! OL JR

I'm just going off of similar cases from civil suites as the evidence against the defendant has to be irrefutable... A judge might say well go after the RSO who allowed it to fly... If I knew beyond a reasonable doubt I was at fault for something it would be settled outside of court other than that I'd just give information and communicate through an attorney especially if the amount was substantial. Whatever lawyer told you that you can't sign away your right to sue was mistaken if the contract did not violate any laws than it is legally binding that is why I refuse to sign tickets or anything else that isn't thoroughly read by me. A judge will look and ask why you signed it... I agree with you on the a hole statements I did not want to come across that way if I did sorry...

 

[luke strawwalker]

I'm just going off of similar cases from civil suites as the evidence against the defendant has to be irrefutable... A judge might say well go after the RSO who allowed it to fly... If I knew beyond a reasonable doubt I was at fault for something it would be settled outside of court other than that I'd just give information and communicate through an attorney especially if the amount was substantial. Whatever lawyer told you that you can't sign away your right to sue was mistaken if the contract did not violate any laws than it is legally binding that is why I refuse to sign tickets or anything else that isn't thoroughly read by me. A judge will look and ask why you signed it... I agree with you on the a hole statements I did not want to come across that way if I did sorry...

No offense meant or taken... just that "oh well" attitude really rubs me the wrong way...

Well, FWIU, the lawyer who was telling me this has been around the block awhile. He basically told me that a GOOD lawyer can poke holes in pretty much any "sign away your rights to sue" agreement... Guess there's always exceptions, but then again, that's a lawyer's job... finding exceptions to the "exceptions"... LOL

Signage to the effect that "enter at your own risk" and "hold harmless" statements signed by participants and observers don't buy you much... tort is a funny thing... if people TRESPASSING on your property ILLEGALLY can sue for damages or injuries from stuff they shouldn't have been around in the first place, and were only exposed to while committing an illegal act (trespassing), then they can certainly sue you for damages your rocket might cause to their car, person, or property...

I know that I'd try to do the right thing and settle things amicably... If I damaged someone's stuff, I'd do my best to fix it right... Of course some folks want to use some minor incident as some kind of cash cow... then it's best left to the lawyers... A club that used to fly off our farm had some yahoo that had more money that sense and thought he could "buy" influence in the club, and when he was ultimately rebuffed threatened lawsuits for "defamation" and all sorts of stuff against anyone in the club that opposed him. Ultimately it drove off most of the membership and nearly killed the club, at which point he lost interest and moved on himself... which then left a hollow shell of a club that had to rebuild from the beginning again...

If know if someone perforated my car and thought they could wave it off with a "you knew the risks when you came out here", well, they'd be finding a summons in their mailbox forthwith. If the club didn't get on the guy's case and do their part to help make it right, they'd be on the summons too... As a landowner, if I saw a situation like that, someone would be out of a flying field... if the club was doing their best to make it right, they could probably stay... as for the yahoo, he'd be banned from the property for life....

Later! OL JR

 

[Alethins]

I understand and yeah I'd say with all the regulation a lawyer coykd find a hole I'm not saying he's completely wrong as a lawyers job is to combat that stuff. I also understand about the cash and minor incidents I actually had someone rear end me and received a summons as she sued me for injuries I showed up and the judge actually heard it she wanted $25,679 she lost but still... I would never sue someone for defamation haha what a fool. Anyways I'd be happy to make it right and everything if it happened but the chances of it happening do seem slim. Yeah and it is ridiculous that families can sue if someone is hurt while disrespecting property rights. That oh well attitude gets to me as well...

 

[cwbullet]

Guys,

I think I got the answer i was looking for. I am not looking for a waiver. I am looking for a acknowledgement of responsibility.