Hi everyone, new member preaching the gospel of safe rocketry.

The Rocketry Forum

Help Support The Rocketry Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.

TheYoungRocketeer

New Member
Joined
Apr 21, 2013
Messages
3
Reaction score
1
First post other than testing.

New to the forum, not new to rocketry, nor to the NAR, not presently a member, expired and didn't renew and had other stuff to do, didn't have the money for what I really wanted.
What I wanted was a heavily instrumented parallel stage Lv 1 high power package based on something like a smartphone, a sufficiently advanced model of which had yet to be invented.

My username is derived from "The Old Rocketeer", aka G Harry Stine.

It sounds boastful and presumptuous but I do believe I may be worthy of it.

I got interested in 1997 and hit the ground running. My peers were doing things wildly in violation of the safety code. I felt like (but expected and thankfully realized I was not) the only one who was doing things right.
It was a second dark age for model rocketeers.
Most motors we were flying were either underpowered junk or were amazingly high performance on par with composite but likely to blow up.
Motor tampering was worryingly common.

I told the safety code to all who would listen.
It often fell on ears of those who didn't want to obey it.
Some just ignored me. Others made fun of me.

The worst came to pass when someone took a sizable model of an ICBM and put several firecrackers in the nose as MIRVs and fired it such that it landed in a local school playground. They started using the NFA destructive device clause to go after teens with fireworks even if they did so responsibly.

I still talked and people took some of what I said seriously. I kept reciting the safety code to everone who might listen, and asked anyone who did to pay it forward.
I flew models of peaceful rockets, of general model rockets, and if I got a kit for a missile or something that looked like one I left off military decals.
I tried to make it clear they weren't weapons and talked on and on about payloads.

A nearby school mine had used my range safety knowledge and brought two large fire extinguishers, a hose with a nice metal nozzle, and (with one important exception) generally being careful and serious to the range.
Around the pad they pulled up the tall dry grass and soaked the dirt to mud with the hose.
They then kept everyone further back than the rocket owner and refused to launch otherwise, and used an electric igniter follwing the instructions to the letter.

The CATO that followed was a sight to behold because.
The foolish kid responsible later confided in me, had put gasoline down the nozzle hoping to make it go higher. He didn't know it would make it explode.
Noone ended up dead or injured and because they took anti fire measures they didn't have to involve the fire dept, which the law always comes along with. So while he got permabanned from the range he was not taken to jail.

People paid real attention.
I conducted demo launches without a club affiliation on school property and did it as safely as could be done given the state of improperly stored motors bought from hobby stores who didn't know what they were doing.

After I moved I continued.
My new community's most obvious problem was not association with weapons and danger.
It was a combination of excessive freudian viewpoints, showmanship causing frustration with high skill level first models, and not taking the risks seriously enough.
The reputation and safety record for small models was good though.
When I arrived children used a great slingshot to hurl cardboard missiles (which they introduced in the physics definition using sports balls as an example) high school students used high pressure water rockets.

My proof and standards of safety was so great that when I was 14 and I launched from a school field (of a school I was transferred out of on unrelated note) during summer camp (which I did not attend that year) They stopped the outdoor gym class to watch me.
There I acted like a perfect little RSO. I stopped the countdowns repeatedly for wind/animals/downrange/aircraft even if obviously, listened to and explained the alarm messages and safety keys and why not a fuse.
I mostly flew a very basic non missile looking plastic model using A3 motors.
I would bring several other models including ones I didn't plan to, explaining their functionality, failures, or that the field was too small.

So people actually believed me when I said rocket science "ain't rocket science", and used the KISS principle.
I got some compliments from soldiers from a nearby airbase saying they could use a kid like me there.
The SAM Captains apparently didn't always take things seriously.
 
I can't say if you're worthy to claim the mantle from G Harry, but you definitely earned your safety code merit badge. Twenty more and you get to be scout leader! But seriously, have there ever been teens with fireworks who used them "responsibly"? I must visit these youth of Mayberry. :)
 
Good work! Congratulations! We need more like you!

I too have seen a lot of "tomfoolery" and don't care for it... rocketry is NOT a 'zero risk' activity, nor can it be, BUT, observing the safety code and using common sense is the basis for success and minimizing risk in not only rocketry, but ANY endeavor... I know as a farmer, I haven't kept all my limbs and fingers and toes to this point by taking stupid shortcuts, chances, or being an @$$hat...

Good luck with your level 1 project, if you choose to pursue it... hopefully you'll find a good group of RESPONSIBLE rocketeers to conduct those activities with... I've been to several HPR launches where basically the same sort of nonsense you describe (being fast and loose with the safety code, with that "no harm, no foul" attitude and "let's shove the biggest motor we can in that baby and see what happens" type attitude seems to prevail) was the rule rather than the exception, and it's nothing to trifle with... there's a BIG difference between an Alpha III or even a bigger "D" powered rocket going haywire and doing something stupid, and a large, heavy, high-strength composite material HPR rocket with a big motor in it going wonky and doing something stupid... I've seen enough firsthand myself and read enough "near misses" by others that I don't allow HPR on our farms that two clubs use for launching fields... and personally I'm glad there's no HPR activities within two hours of me...

Of course I don't want to paint with too broad a brush-- there are responsible HPR fliers out there... one of these days I hope to meet some... LOL:)

The point is, as you correctly pointed out, doing stupid stuff with LPR model rockets is bad enough... having people doing stupid stuff with large, heavy, HPR rockets and motors is a whole other level of stupidity and danger... both to themselves and others... and I have YET to see a HPR "accident" that wasn't TOTALLY avoidable with the RIGHT safety precautions and "safety first" mindset in design, construction, and operations...

Later and good luck! OL JR :)
 
And yet.... :eyeroll:

Whatever... doesn't change a blessed thing I've seen with my own eyes and read of the experiences of others...

If that upsets you, instead of getting mad at the messenger, maybe we should all stress safety more...

How about that?? OL JR :)
 
Whatever... doesn't change a blessed thing I've seen with my own eyes and read of the experiences of others...

If that upsets you, instead of getting mad at the messenger, maybe we should all stress safety more...

How about that?? OL JR :)

I'm not upset Jr, though admittedly my first post here was a bit snarky. Follow that with the "eye roll" and yeah it probably reads like I've got the horns out. My response to the OP, well I think open hostility is almost never justified but when greeted with awkward self-aggrandizement I don't think good-natured sarcasm is off the table either. My response to your post, well.....I just think it's funny when people say things like "I don't want to stereotype but..." and then say something stereotypical. You don't want to paint with too broad a brush and yet...you...just...can't...resist. Anyone who spends much time reading here will know that you beat this drum loud and often, all over this forum. I don't know what it is that you've witnessed to put you on such a vendetta against HPR. You mentioned that you have yet to see a HPR accident that wasn't totally avoidable with some attention to safety. Have you really seen so many HPR accidents? My impression is that accidents at any impulse-class of hobby rocketry are actually not that common. And since you don't allow HPR on your farms and there are no HPR activities within two hours of your farms, then you must be doing a lot of driving to go see something you don't like....? In any case please don't misunderstand me, I am in no way condoning unsafe behavior. Quite the opposite. But my experience of HPR fliers has also been quite the opposite of yours. As projects have grown in scale and complexity I have observed people with correspondingly greater knowledge, experience, and attention to detail, including matters of safety. But I'm sure there are good and bad fliers at every level. Maybe I barked at your soapbox but it gets tiring to be in the receiving class of some of your favored refrains.
 
Since 9-11 model rocketry has been focused on by the BATF and although they lost their case in court over composite motors, dont think they aren't still watching us. Now more than ever, we need to be very stringent in adhereing to safety codes provided by NAR, CAR, and Tripoli. The feds are still allowing us to police ourselves through these organizations but it only takes one major accident to bring the heat from the feds. Thankfully there are plenty of well organised club launches to go to where safety is focused on. And parents need to emphasis safety first and not encourage their kids to do dumb things they learn watching Jackass movies.
 
Congratulations on taking the high road. It will serve you well all of your life.
 
I'm not upset Jr, though admittedly my first post here was a bit snarky. Follow that with the "eye roll" and yeah it probably reads like I've got the horns out. My response to the OP, well I think open hostility is almost never justified but when greeted with awkward self-aggrandizement I don't think good-natured sarcasm is off the table either. My response to your post, well.....I just think it's funny when people say things like "I don't want to stereotype but..." and then say something stereotypical. You don't want to paint with too broad a brush and yet...you...just...can't...resist. Anyone who spends much time reading here will know that you beat this drum loud and often, all over this forum. I don't know what it is that you've witnessed to put you on such a vendetta against HPR. You mentioned that you have yet to see a HPR accident that wasn't totally avoidable with some attention to safety. Have you really seen so many HPR accidents? My impression is that accidents at any impulse-class of hobby rocketry are actually not that common. And since you don't allow HPR on your farms and there are no HPR activities within two hours of your farms, then you must be doing a lot of driving to go see something you don't like....? In any case please don't misunderstand me, I am in no way condoning unsafe behavior. Quite the opposite. But my experience of HPR fliers has also been quite the opposite of yours. As projects have grown in scale and complexity I have observed people with correspondingly greater knowledge, experience, and attention to detail, including matters of safety. But I'm sure there are good and bad fliers at every level. Maybe I barked at your soapbox but it gets tiring to be in the receiving class of some of your favored refrains.

Yes, I have seen quite enough to convince me it's not something that I will support. Sorry but that's been my experience and I don't really want to get into it in the open forum, but when I got back into rocketry about seven years ago or thereabouts... I was interested in HPR because it seemed to be a pretty big chunk of the hobby and new to me... HPR was just becoming "legal" back in the late 80's when I went to school and wasn't really in rocketry anymore. When I got interested in rocketry again, I went to a number of launches around Texas... from Hearne to MacGregor to NASA, among a few others (some multiple times). At my first visit to a HPR launch, there were TWO serious incidents that could have quite easily resulted in death, and but for sheer luck and the grace of God would have... then there's been NUMEROUS incidents that have occurred since, and from the detailed information that I've learned about them, two things instantly jump out... every single one was 1) TOTALLY avoidable with a greater dedication to safety and installing the proper safety devices like shunts or shorting bars on charges and ignitors, and/or a greater observance and enforcement of safety rules and procedures, and 2) they would have been TOTALLY avoidable had people been following the ESTABLISHED rules for the launch site or site conditions.

That tells me logically that SOME folks have a problem following the established rules, and having the common sense to see the risks of some of the things they're doing, and having the maturity and self-restraint to take a step back and say "this isn't a good idea"... or even "well, its too risky today"...

Like I said... if this is unsettling, perhaps a greater emphasis on safety and following the established rules and regulations are in order...

BTW, there's a BIG difference between a wayward Alpha and a wayward 20 pound + rocket built like an anti-tank round... the fact that some folks don't want to admit that or don't see that is another reason I'm glad there's no HPR within range of my place... that and the prevailing attitude I see REPEATEDLY displayed that so long as nothing bad happens, everything is okay-- "no harm, no foul"...

"No harm, no foul" is NOT an acceptable safety protocol...

Later! OL JR :)

PS. I take a lot of heat for my viewpoints on this... but I stand by them. Folks like to blast me for not supporting HPR yet they do NOTHING to address the issues I bring up... I'm used to it... I've seen it for years... For the record, I don't support banning HPR or anything like that, BUT, I do not support it... and while I'm glad that people that like it can do it, I personally am very glad that they're not next door, or even a few miles away... And in fairness, I haven't been to HPR launched conducted outside Texas, other than at NSL in Muncie a few years back... so I'm not referring to folks elsewhere and how they conduct their operations... Perhaps this is more of a local phenomenon and mostly in Texas (but I've read of plenty of stuff elsewhere that certainly makes me shake my head).
 
Well Jr I'm sorry that your experiences have soured you to HPR, and I certainly agree that as the size of rockets & motors go up so do the potential harms from an adverse outcome or inattention to safety. That's precisely why the HPR certification process exists, and why you can walk in off the street and buy a C or D motor but not an H or K or M without proof of vetting. Does that mean no one with a HPR cert will ever make a mistake or a bad decision? No of course not, but I think it's wrong to characterize this entire subset of rocketeers on the basis of your very limited observations. I don't know any HPR fliers with a cavalier attitude toward safety. I've also never been to Texas, perhaps good-ole-boyism pervades rocketry there too. Did you see any unsafe behavior at the NSL in Muncie? Just remember that every time you don't resist the urge to paint in broad strokes on this forum you're taking a swipe at many very admirable and serious hobbyists.
 
Well Jr I'm sorry that your experiences have soured you to HPR, and I certainly agree that as the size of rockets & motors go up so do the potential harms from an adverse outcome or inattention to safety. That's precisely why the HPR certification process exists, and why you can walk in off the street and buy a C or D motor but not an H or K or M without proof of vetting. Does that mean no one with a HPR cert will ever make a mistake or a bad decision? No of course not, but I think it's wrong to characterize this entire subset of rocketeers on the basis of your very limited observations. I don't know any HPR fliers with a cavalier attitude toward safety. I've also never been to Texas, perhaps good-ole-boyism pervades rocketry there too. Did you see any unsafe behavior at the NSL in Muncie? Just remember that every time you don't resist the urge to paint in broad strokes on this forum you're taking a swipe at many very admirable and serious hobbyists.

Muncie seemed well run to me... although a wayward rocket (LPR/MPR not sure which) went awry and crashed into the vendor tent right above our heads, slid down the tent canvas, and plopped into a trash barrel right behind Jim Flis, to whom I was talking at that particular moment. Stuff happens... I'm certainly glad it wasn't a fiberglass antitank round or I might not be here to talk about it... (or Jim for that matter).

It's not my intent to "take swipes" at anybody... I'm just relaying the things *I* have seen, heard, and read about. I'm glad that you've not seen these things, because it would be all the more frightening if you had... it would mean the problem is more widespread than even *I* think it is...

Let's just say that I've seen enough to know I don't support it and leave it at that...

Later! OL JR :)
 
Glad to hear the only incident at Muncie was not HPR. I love irony. :wink:

You are certainly entitled to your opinion on the matter, and I can leave it at that. The question is, can you? Is it reasonable to continue dropping your two cents all over TRF on this topic? Isn't it reasonable for others to call you out on it when you do? I think we all know your opinion on HPR by now, there's really no need to air it again.
 
There's really no need to air it again.

And again...and again...and again...

More seriously though, I have seen several major incidents with HPR, but all spectators were safe specifically because of heavily enforced safety zones (research CATOs), no one even came near to being hurt. Then there was a time that a LPR rocket put a big dent into the hood of our car since the design was extremely close to being unstable, immediately followed by the next truck over getting hit by a HPR under a large chute. I have not see any correlation between the size of the rocket and the rate of accidents, more succinctly both HPR, MPR, ant HPR have accidents and proper adherence to safety regulations should prevent any injury.
 
But seriously, have there ever been teens with fireworks who used them "responsibly"? I must visit these youth of Mayberry. :)

I'm a teen, i use fireworks responsibly :) ...but then again i'm not exactly your average teen...I have had my neighbor (who didn't know what an m80 was) light off an m80 (quarterstick) right next to me as i was prepping a very large firework (very)...i have no clue what he was thinking but all i can say is my dad was the maddest i had ever seen him and i still have a hard time hearing...in a previous thread i explained how safety conscious i am with rocketry and younger rocketeers, well I am the same with fireworks...last fourth of july i got hit in the back by a very large mortar, boy was that fun...someone lit a very large mortar on a baseball pitching mound where i was overseeing people (the park has asked me to do this a few times) while lighting some fireworks of my own, and then i hear THUMP (this one had 5 shots) which tipped it, but it was aiming out towards the center of the field...then another thump as i got a bunch of people behind the fence and when i heard the next thump i covered my face and turned around and got hit...that sucked :) no serious injuries but i was extremely ...vocal...with the man who lit the mortar. k my rant is over :D
 
Glad to hear the only incident at Muncie was not HPR. I love irony. :wink:

You are certainly entitled to your opinion on the matter, and I can leave it at that. The question is, can you? Is it reasonable to continue dropping your two cents all over TRF on this topic? Isn't it reasonable for others to call you out on it when you do? I think we all know your opinion on HPR by now, there's really no need to air it again.

Well, the only incident *while I was there* (which was only part of ONE day). I would hardly call that conclusive evidence...

What gives YOU the right to tell me what I can and cannot talk about?? It's a free country (at least it used to be) and I have as much right to my opinion as you do to yours... and I'm in no way slamming you for your opinion or want to silence you... you have the freedom to express your disagreement with me as often as you please, and I for one am pleased that we've been able to have a civil conversation about the issue without it devolving into a flame war or name calling or other such nonsense...

I find it rather perplexing and troubling that folks like you seem to think (or am I misunderstanding you) that if someone isn't supportive of HPR activities, or sees problems with the attitudes some fliers demonstrate through their actions, or problems with the procedures or safety culture in HPR activities, that they should somehow be silenced... it's as if it's easier to muffle the messenger than it is to actually address the problems or concerns and try to improve things...

This thread started off with a discussion of the OP's efforts to stop tomfoolery amongst the youngsters he's flown with or around that has caused unfortunate events... I can say from experience I've seen a similar attitude displayed by supposedly "certified" HPR fliers; if not outright tomfoolery, then a SERIOUS lack of judgment or good sense, overlooked safety precautions, broken rules, etc... and a disdain displayed for the problem since there was "no harm, no foul" with the attitude that everybody else should laugh about it or just shut up and go away-- and NOT stand in the way of them and their fun... after all, they're "certified" and know better than anyone else, even when they're WRONG... at least that's the kind of attitude I've seen displayed.

If you dislike my stance on HPR, too bad for you... you can certainly post your objections to my observations whenever you see fit... and if my posts bother you, sorry, but nobody's holding a gun to your head to make you read them, are they?? It's not your place to tell me what I can and cannot say, though.

Have a good one and thanks for the conversation!
Later! OL JR :)
 
Looks to me like 'Ol Jr. created a young Jr. - OP has no comment on this anymore?!?
 
Jr: I am not trying to silence you. But if I question some of your conclusions or the rationale behind them, and you come round to "I've seen what I've seen and this is my belief and let's leave it at that" that is you trying to end discussion. That's you saying you have the right to speak your mind on this topic any time you want AND the right to do so unchallenged. Well, you have one of those rights. My response was: sure, I can leave it at that. Can you? You may have the right to say over and over that you don't like HPR, but must you? Believe me, you've made your point.

They say actions speak louder so I'll make good on my offer to walk away by posting no more to this thread. Can you resist the need to have the last word?
 
Back
Top