First Fiberglassing

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jqavins

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I'm gearing up to do my first fiberglassing. A phenolic tube, about 2½" diameter (I don't have it n front of me) and about 18" long. I need to glass it, obviously. I want to keep it light, but I realize that if I use cloth that's too light it may not hold up to a modestly rough landing.

So here's my simple question, which could have a simple answer, but this is TRF so it probably won't. What weight cloth should I buy?
 
Back in the 90's, I glassed a 4 inch phenolic PML tube. I used a single layer of 2 oz. cloth followed by a single layer of 0.75 oz. cloth. It gave a great surface for primer and paint.
 
I do my 3" tubes with 3 layers of 1.5 oz glass from fiberglassSite.com and they are strong and light. 34" LOC tube not glassed is 7.7 oz, glassed with 3 layers of 1.5 oz glass is 9.7 oz
 
It would probably help to know the properties of the phenolic tube and why you think it's inadequate, what sort of rocket it is, weight, etc. so we could get an idea of what the loads are and how inadequate the existing structure is. Maybe the reinforcement material in the phenolic, too. Phenolic is just a kind of resin and could be reinforced with any number of materials. I'm not saying I have the answers, but without that info, people will just be guessing, or maybe just making a bunch of assumptions that may or may not be true.
 
Phenolic tube is well known for cracking in a hard landing and that crack spreading. When it happened to me the crack was all the way around the tube in 2 places and the centering rings and the motor tube were what was holding the rocket together.
I moved to full fiberglass.
Norm

Watch John Cokers videos
 
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Phenolic tube is well known for cracking in a hard landing and that crack spreading. When it happened to me the crack was all the way around the tube in 2 places and the centering rings and the motor tube were what was holding the rocket together.
I moved to full fiberglass.
Norm

Watch John Cokers videos

Your saying that doesn't make all phenolic tubing the same. At least you are giving us a hint of the problem. I'll bet if you say what brand and size of phenolic tubing, someone with knowledge about that in particular will jump in with more grounded advice.

Phenolic laminates can be obtained that are reinforced with paper, linen, canvas or fiberglass. And I'd guess a few other things as well. Something tells me that a thick, glass reinforce phenolic laminate in a light rocket will have far less trouble than a thin, paper reinforce phenolic laminate in a heavy rocket. But you are leaving any engineers (as opposed to invokers of magic amulets and true names) in the dark. Just saying "phenolic tubing" is like just saying "epoxy tubing" and pretending that epoxy/glass is the same as epoxy/carbon, epoxy/Kevlar, epoxy/S2 glass, epoxy/basalt, epoxy/paper (something I've messed around with), epoxy/whatever.

Incidentally, if you care about weight, the lightest thing might be to create crack stoppers* with thin rings at intervals on the inside of the tubes. Well, that's for lengthwise cracks. If they're going the other way, use long, thin stringers. You COULD put them on the outside, but it would look funny, and be a bit draggier. Maybe not a lot draggier if the reinforcement was thin and the boundary layer was thick at that point.

The rings or stringers wouldn't actually have to be fiberglass. Thin wood veneer would work fine, too. And many other materials. I once had a model airplane fuselage which I'd finished with water-based urethane instead of plastic covering. Turns out that the plastic had a function and it cracked easily. It looked funny, but a few rings of thread on the outside stopped the problem.

*Much like rip stop in fabric.
 
Your saying that doesn't make all phenolic tubing the same. At least you are giving us a hint of the problem. I'll bet if you say what brand and size of phenolic tubing, someone with knowledge about that in particular will jump in with more grounded advice.

Phenolic laminates can be obtained that are reinforced with paper, linen, canvas or fiberglass. And I'd guess a few other things as well. Something tells me that a thick, glass reinforce phenolic laminate in a light rocket will have far less trouble than a thin, paper reinforce phenolic laminate in a heavy rocket. But you are leaving any engineers (as opposed to invokers of magic amulets and true names) in the dark. Just saying "phenolic tubing" is like just saying "epoxy tubing" and pretending that epoxy/glass is the same as epoxy/carbon, epoxy/Kevlar, epoxy/S2 glass, epoxy/basalt, epoxy/paper (something I've messed around with), epoxy/whatever.

Incidentally, if you care about weight, the lightest thing might be to create crack stoppers* with thin rings at intervals on the inside of the tubes. Well, that's for lengthwise cracks. If they're going the other way, use long, thin stringers. You COULD put them on the outside, but it would look funny, and be a bit draggier. Maybe not a lot draggier if the reinforcement was thin and the boundary layer was thick at that point.

The rings or stringers wouldn't actually have to be fiberglass. Thin wood veneer would work fine, too. And many other materials. I once had a model airplane fuselage which I'd finished with water-based urethane instead of plastic covering. Turns out that the plastic had a function and it cracked easily. It looked funny, but a few rings of thread on the outside stopped the problem.

*Much like rip stop in fabric.
I don't see the point in taking a poor material choice and fixing it. Unless there is a specific reason to do so such as for a motor propellant liner/insulator or for some other specific reason.
Great material choice if you want a high-temperature insulator.
 
I'm saying it's NOT just one material choice. In fact, even phenolic resin by itself comes in various flavors.

As I recall, some phenolic resins don't have particularly high elongation at yield, so they may benefit from higher modulus reinforcement than e-glass. That could mean a little bit of carbon or kevlar would help more than a lot of glass. Unidirectional reinforcement would help more than woven, since the resulting composite has a higher elastic modulus and would take up more of the load. A little inside and a little outside would do more than a greater total weight on the outside only.
 
It would probably help to know the properties of the phenolic tube and why you think it's inadequate, what sort of rocket it is, weight, etc. so we could get an idea of what the loads are and how inadequate the existing structure is. Maybe the reinforcement material in the phenolic, too. Phenolic is just a kind of resin and could be reinforced with any number of materials. I'm not saying I have the answers, but without that info, people will just be guessing, or maybe just making a bunch of assumptions that may or may not be true.
That's a fair point. It's LOC phenolic tubing, and came that way in the kit. While you're quite right that "phenolic" can mean any of many specific things, items called "phenolic tubing" do have a reputation for being brittle and breaking on landings that are a bit sporty even while under 'chute. Is that reputation based on LOC phenolic tubing? Or a "typical" phenolic used for tubing in our hobby (if there is such a thing)? I don't know. What is the combination of fiber and matrix in the LOC tubes? I don't know.

What I do know is that the conventional wisdom is that phenolic tubing is brittle and should be reinforced with a layer of fiberglass. Is that "magic amulets and true names"? Perhaps it is. I say again you make a fair point. For now, however, I'll stick with the conventional wisdom and glass it. So I'd like to know what the conventional wisdom says about the fabric weight to construct my talisman from.
 
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