Direct stage a D to an E?

[SteveA]

Is it possible? I have a rocket that I stretched from a CC Express and was wondering if it was possible to use an extra bottom stage from a CC Express to stage this one. Is this too much weight for that D to lift-off the pad? The rocket, loaded, weighs-in at 8.4 ounces. The CG is well ahead of the CP but I'm just wondering about the D's ability to get it off the pad. I have a sim program, but I'm still learning it and was hoping to tap into some experience here.

 

[plano-doug]

Is it possible? I have a rocket that I stretched from a CC Express and was wondering if it was possible to use an extra bottom stage from a CC Express to stage this one. Is this too much weight for that D to lift-off the pad? The rocket, loaded, weighs-in at 8.4 ounces. The CG is well ahead of the CP but I'm just wondering about the D's ability to get it off the pad. I have a sim program, but I'm still learning it and was hoping to tap into some experience here.

When you say extra bottom stage, are you talking about flying it as a 3-stager?

For the 2-stage D-E combo, yes, there's sufficient lifting power in the D12-0 to lift a CC express with an upper stage E9-8 (or maybe E9-6). I've flown that combo several times in a couple different rockets. For size comparison to the CC Express, one was BT-55 based, the other Quest T-40.

After motor power, the other consideration is stability. I'd have to run some sims on the CC Express to know for sure if it has sufficient stability margin with the larger E9 in the sustainer, but I suspect it does.

If you're trying to fly it as a 3-stager, you'll get a mix of advice here. Personally, my experience with a 3-staged BT-55 based rocket was disappointing. The lone D12-0 in the 1st stage just didn't have enough oomph for a satisfactory (ie, vertical ) flight.

Ultimately, I added three outboard 18mm motors to the first stage to get it going with authority. That rocked. Some noseweight was required. Doug .

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[ClayD]

I have done a CCexpress D-E, the D was just enough imo. Any more weight would have been an issue.

the -0 second lag between stages sure helps... so wind and the severe lack of is your friend!

Plano-Doug has a perfect answer with adding some boost power to your initial booster. you can add up to a few inches of lenght to each stage and the charge should still ignite the next stage... and is a great way to make the rocket more stable without making it necessarily too heavy.

you will have to search for people who have staged engines with gaps between them, but it has been done so it is possible.

 

[SteveA]

When you say extra bottom stage, are you talking about flying it as a 3-stager?

No only as a two stage. Here is the basic rocket. I have a spare bottom stage from another CC Express that I thought about using with this which I built to fly on an E and if, the D to E staging was possible. Like I said, it's 53 inches long with the bottom stage and 8.4 ounces loaded and the CG is well ahead of CP.
Thanks to both of you, this was answer I hoped to hear.

The 18mm outboard is seriously cool! Just out of curiosity, what was your max altitude with that configuration?

Steve

 

[plano-doug]

The 18mm outboard is seriously cool! Just out of curiosity, what was your max altitude with that configuration?

It was flown with three C6-0's and a D12-0 in the first stage, a D12-0 in the second, stage and an E9-6 in the sustainer. There were several L3 fliers around and one pilot. They were estimating 3000-3500 ft. The Tuber is quite draggy, so I would have guessed lower, but I'm reluctant to 2nd guess guys who have such good credentials

BTW, this is the second staged rocket I've built where I had to go back and add the outboards to the booster. The other one was just barely flyable under ideal conditions, then I wrecked it. The added weight of the repairs dictated the extra motors. Anyway, that's why I sometimes complain that I wished Estes' new E12 was an E40 so that these heavier rockets could be launched without using a cluster.

Doug

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[SteveA]

you will have to search for people who have staged engines with gaps between them, but it has been done so it is possible.

I've gap staged the Quest Navaho and Zenith II with success ( I didn't like the motor hooks stuffed into that small space), but I wasn't sure how do-able it would be with a D and E configuration. (plus there was the whole weight-thrust-lift issue and it would not require any other modification..I'm a lazy lout, I know.) I thought I'd better just stick with the direct staging...or invest in a flak vest.

 

[Mach1Monster]

Is it possible? I have a rocket that I stretched from a CC Express and was wondering if it was possible to use an extra bottom stage from a CC Express to stage this one. Is this too much weight for that D to lift-off the pad? The rocket, loaded, weighs-in at 8.4 ounces. The CG is well ahead of the CP but I'm just wondering about the D's ability to get it off the pad. I have a sim program, but I'm still learning it and was hoping to tap into some experience here.

I built one just like that....make sure you have enough nose weight

 

[[POW]Eagle159]

I made a 2-stage with a D12-0 booster, at 10oz, she flew prefect, slow and low! Just NO wind for the first 100 ft so she gets up to speed!

The camera died on the launch picture!!!:eyeroll:

 

[GDJ]

I've done it many times with this rocket. Granted this one is rather light compared to other rockets, but it does work very well with a D12-0 booster and a E9-6 upper stage.

 

[gpoehlein]

Although I haven't done it myself, I have heard of others CHAD staging D12-0 to E9-x (6 or 8, YMMV). That's the only way to use the E9-8 as an upper stage motor - there never was an E9-0 (just not enough oomph to get a heavy beast up there, and it would have been too tempting for people to use thinking it was more powerful than it was). Now, the E12-0 when it comes out...

 

[SteveA]

Yeah, but how much nose weight? At 8.4 ounces I'm kinda pushing the envelope on leaving the pad aren't I? I still need to decal and gloss coat.

Eagle and GDJ, love the birds! Eagle I like what you did with the nose cones as pods. Really cool idea!

I wish it would warm-up here and the winds would abate. I'm getting an itchy trigger finger now. I wanna fly this puppy!:fly:

 

[plano-doug]

...there never was an E9-0 (just not enough oomph to get a heavy beast up there, and it would have been too tempting for people to use thinking it was more powerful than it was). Now, the E12-0 when it comes out...

Sorry to nit-pick, Greg...but as I understand it, there were actually some sample quantities of E9-0's that got around to a few fliers early on, but that was all - no production quantities. It was certified, BTW.

I agree it lacked sufficient lifting power, which was the consensus back when the E9 was intro'd...all those years ago

The E12-0 will no doubt be much more viable - the criteria to build light isn't so demanding.

Doug

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[[POW]Eagle159]

Yeah, but how much nose weight? At 8.4 ounces I'm kinda pushing the envelope on leaving the pad aren't I? I still need to decal and gloss coat.

Eagle and GDJ, love the birds! Eagle I like what you did with the nose cones as pods. Really cool idea!

I wish it would warm-up here and the winds would abate. I'm getting an itchy trigger finger now. I wanna fly this puppy!:fly:

The white pods actually have a purpose.....To house the booster chutes, Yes the booster has duel chute recovery!
The parachutes are attached to the little white tubes on the booster section. On staging the booster falls away and pulls the chutes out of the pods....And it worked!:horse:

 

[Larry Curcio]

Yeah, but how much nose weight? At 8.4 ounces I'm kinda pushing the envelope on leaving the pad aren't I? I still need to decal and gloss coat.

Where's the CP on the thing as it stands? I doubt you'll need any nose weight for a CHAD configuration. Try the numbers.

Are the decals more important than the extra stage? (I mean... I don' know. Just asking.)

I used to CHAD stage a Super Big Bertha D to E all the time. Not something I'd launch in a stiff breeze, but a vertical launch on a calm day made for a spectacular flight.


Luck and Regards,
-LarryC

 

[Handeman]

I have a Estes D Region Tomahawk I CHAD stage quite often. The last time the nozzle blew on the D12 and it burned on the pad, staged to the E9 which didn't go anywhere because it was burning through the D12 casing and didn't have any thrust. The chute popped to the top of the rail right on time.

 

[SteveA]

Are the decals more important than the extra stage? (I mean... I don' know. Just asking.)

Well, no, not really. I just think it would make for a nicer looking rocket is all. CP is maybe a 1/2 inch- 1 inch ahead of the fins and the CG is a good 21 inches ahead of that.

 

[gpoehlein]

Sorry to nit-pick, Greg...but as I understand it, there were actually some sample quantities of E9-0's that got around to a few fliers early on, but that was all - no production quantities. It was certified, BTW.

I agree it lacked sufficient lifting power, which was the consensus back when the E9 was intro'd...all those years ago

The E12-0 will no doubt be much more viable - the criteria to build light isn't so demanding.

Doug

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Well, to pick a little more at those nits (pesky things, ain't they?), I really meant that the E9-0 was never available commercially.

 

[plano-doug]

Well, to pick a little more at those nits (pesky things, ain't they?), I really meant that the E9-0 was never available commercially.

Fair enough



Doug

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[oddmanrockets]

i had good results from making the comanchee 3 D-12-0 to D12-0 to D12-7

 

[GDJ]

Yeah, but how much nose weight? At 8.4 ounces I'm kinda pushing the envelope on leaving the pad aren't I? I still need to decal and gloss coat.

Eagle and GDJ, love the birds! Eagle I like what you did with the nose cones as pods. Really cool idea!

I wish it would warm-up here and the winds would abate. I'm getting an itchy trigger finger now. I wanna fly this puppy!:fly:

Thank you!

As for the weight, I'm not entirely certain that this would be a problem, but make sure the rocket gets to a decent speed and stability when simulating it (No less than 1.0 off the rod). I'm afraid that's the only advise I have at the moment.

 

[MarkII]

For no reason other than force of habit, I put an extra long 24mm motor mount in the sustainer of my FSI Echo-1 clone. So if someday I was at a launch and had become totally loopy from the heat, I could put an E9 in there to go with the D12 in the booster. But that would be sufficient reason to have me hauled off by the men in the white coats. The first flight of this rocket was on a D12-0/C11-7 combination. That took it well out of sight and the sustainer took a good long time to come down once we spotted it. I haven't launched it again since then because I haven't had it with me when I was at large enough field for it. I intend to launch it more on C11-0/C6-5 or -7 combinations so that I can put it up more often.

 

[SteveA]

The white pods actually have a purpose.....To house the booster chutes, Yes the booster has duel chute recovery!
The parachutes are attached to the little white tubes on the booster section. On staging the booster falls away and pulls the chutes out of the pods....And it worked!:horse:

Oh now that is seriously cool!

 

[plano-doug]

For no reason other than force of habit, I put an extra long 24mm motor mount in the sustainer of my FSI Echo-1 clone. So if someday I was at a launch and had become totally loopy from the heat, I could put an E9 in there to go with the D12 in the booster. But that would be sufficient reason to have me hauled off by the men in the white coats. The first flight of this rocket was on a D12-0/C11-7 combination. That took it well out of sight and the sustainer took a good long time to come down once we spotted it. I haven't launched it again since then because I haven't had it with me when I was at large enough field for it. I intend to launch it more on C11-0/C6-5 or -7 combinations so that I can put it up more often.

When I built my Echo-1 (actual kit, FWIW), I used 18mm mounts in place the stock 21mm (?) tubes. I couldn't fathom then the thought of 24mm power. In hindsight tho, I can see using a D in one stage anyway. The ST-13 tubing and wide fin span present enough drag to keep it suborbital. But no doubt, it would be a risky flight like yours was.

As for your motor combos, I like the idea of the C11-0. I think you could fly a D12-7 or even an E9-8 in the sustainer. The nice thing about the C11-0 is that the rocket is still fairly low when it stages which means you get the booster back for sure and it's a little easier to track the sustainer. That is, rather than your D12-0/C11-7 combo, I'd flip it around. Combined with a nice, long mylar streamer, your chances of recovery should be pretty good.

Doug

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[Larry Curcio]

That is, rather than your D12-0/C11-7 combo, I'd flip it around. Combined with a nice, long mylar streamer, your chances of recovery should be pretty good.

Doug

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Your flipped version should go higher too. The casing from the C11 is dropped off early, so the dead mass of both stages doesn't have to be lifted as high. The extra energy goes into speed and altitude.

 

[plano-doug]

Your flipped version should go higher too. The casing from the C11 is dropped off early, so the dead mass of both stages doesn't have to be lifted as high. The extra energy goes into speed and altitude.

Yeah, I agree, but hopefully not appreciably higher - we do want to get it back

Doug

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[SteveA]

Combined with a nice, long mylar streamer, your chances of recovery should be pretty good.

Doug.

I was going to use a mylar streamer for this too. Anything to avoid a lot of drift.