Can I get level 1 cert with a homemade motor?

[ynotusean88]

I'm a student in high school and I’m the head of an experimental rocket program at my school. This has been a two year project, with in these two years we have made our own I-440 sorbitol / KNO3 rocket motor with 136lb of peak thrust. And we are near completion of our rocket. However we can not launch at the local rocket club (MDRA- Maryland Delaware Rocketry Assoc) because we have not yet achieved level one cert.

SO my question is can we get level 1 cert with our own rocket motor or do we need to buy one and use it for the certification flight. Also any tips on filling out the FAA waiver or any other kinds of necessary waivers, this will be greatly appreciated.

And thank you for any reply

P.S. I’m sorry for my ignorance for not finding a thread which is similar to this one in its nature

 

[karatekicker271]

No, you can not do that. It's accualy not even *technically* legal for you to be building your own motors until you get L-2.

 

[Rocketmaniac]

Welcome to the Forum!!! Your projects sounds exciting. I wish my high school had such a program.

To answer you question (and repeat some of what the others said). No, you can't get you L1 cert on homemade motors. Homemade motors (EX motors) are only allowed at EX launch. NAR doesn't recognize EX launches, only Tripoli. And you need to be a L2 to flew EX motors at an EX launch. If you launch a rocket on your own land, all the above rules are out the window.

I hope you stay around the TRF. A lot of people here would love to hear more about your projects. Post some pictures and you'll become much more popular.

 

[karatekicker271]

Hey- sorry about the mean-sounding response. I didn't mean it meanly. Again, like Randy said welcome to the forum!

 

[ynotusean88]

Thank you guys so much for your help, my second question is what steps whould you recommend to continue with our project.
Also where can I take a level 2 cert test?
And don't worry about giving me a mean spirited response . I'm a big boy my feelings don’t get hurt unless my rocket crashes or blows up then, I feel bad.
Any way thanks for your responses.

One more thing should I fill out the ATF explosives forms and if so what type of permit should I apply for?

Once we have finish will post all our journal entries and thrust data on the web in due time. Once again thank you.

Please contact me if you have and other information
[email protected]

See atached pic for stactic test of our I motor

 

[rstaff3]

Technically, MDRA does require TRA/NAR certs to fly at a given level. You would have to let an L1 certified adult fly the motor for you, or if you are old enough, to cert first.

An L2 cert is not required to be legal, it's just required to fly L2 motors (TRA/NAR), or EX motors (TRA). I'm not saying the motor is or isn't legal, just that a cert. doesn't make it so.

 

[MarkM]

Originally posted by ynotusean88
Also where can I take a level 2 cert test?

You must certify level 1 before you can take the L2 test or L2 cert flight (both with legal, authorized, manufactured motors from Aerotech, Cessaroni, or Loki). Your project sounds exciting, unfortunately, there are several regulations as others have mentioned that are standing in your way.

Perhaps, your best method would be to attend some local TRA launches that have EX launches, befriend some of the members and get their confidance, and then describe your project with a possible "test stand" demonstration. Once you gain their trust that your motor works, perhaps one of their L2 fliers will fly your motor. To launch EX motors, which yours is, you need L2 certificaton.

Otherwise, it's going to be a step-wise process with the right Tripoli perfect (those that allow EX launches, not all do), to be able to fly your motor yourself. Don't forget, there is also an age requirement...you must be 18 to attempt L1 and then, once passed, L2.

 

[gerbs4me]

Welcome to the forum

Your project sounds very interesting, please keep us posted. What are the specs of the rocket?

 

[Reed Goodwin]

Ditto what others have said and one more thing. Even if you are L2 with Tripoli, you must be 21 to fly EX. Otherwise, welcome to the forum and good luck with the program. You started off on the right foot with pictures
Reed

 

[rstaff3]

jcrocket is right and I was short in my previous comment. MDRA can cert you in either TRA or NAR and will work with you to get the motor in the air. I have never heard that we require a L2 be 21 to fly EX however. You should make contact in advance via the link in the website.

 

[Reed Goodwin]

Originally posted by rstaff3
I have never heard that we require a L2 be 21 to fly EX however.

MDRA may be different, but at TRA-sanctioned EX launches, one must be 21 and L2.

"9.3.1 Only Tripoli members 21 years of age or older shall be allowed to participate in Tripoli Research
activities."

"9.1.2 All flyers at a Tripoli Research Launch shall be members of Tripoli in good standing and shall have
achieved Tripoli Certification Level 2 or greater."
Reed

 

[marvSRG]

As many have said, all clubs are different--check in with them on an individual level. Although effective and widely used, Tripoli rules aren't the law--they only apply at Tripoli sanctioned launches.

Also, welcome to the forum...very nice pic!

 

[rstaff3]

That is clear. MDRA doesn't fly under TRA or NAR rules. They elected, however, to require certs from one of these orgs. The best way to find out the answer about the age is to start a dialogue with Niel McGilvray. Come on out to a launch...he'll be there.

 

[Chilly]

Just in case your group finds a field and can launch on your own, don't forget the FAA. You'll need to comply with FAR 101.

 

[BrnAgainRoc]

Originally posted by jcrocket
MDRA is neither a TRA nor NAR club. Hence my suggestion to talk to those individuals. They would know who in the area can administer the cert tests and would know the answers to the other questions for that area.

Our club is the same as MDRA. We hold non-sanctioned launches where EX and commercial motors can be flown the same day cause we have our own insurance policy. MDRA is the same way. Ive worked with MDRA to help guide us in a positive direction with our club/organization. But its been stated you need to be a member of TRA to do EX cause NAR doesnt support EX. Also must be 21 years old and be Level 2 to use the motors. You cant certify on them of course. But Im very positive you would be turned down by MDRA unless all these qualifications were met. We have to obey these rules to keep our insurance. So heres the deal. Theres basically 2 options you got. One you can find a level 2 TRA member to launch your rocket, of course they will oversee the motor being built and probably require some test fires. Or you can go out and do this with your group on your own. Now ILL make it clear i dont recommend the second one unless you got someone that knows whats going on and is experienced in Ex motors. just some ideas.

 

[rstaff3]

You can be only in the NAR and fly EX at MDRA. Certs still required. You might very well be correct about the age, but it should still be run by Neil M.

 

[BrnAgainRoc]

Originally posted by rstaff3
You can be only in the NAR and fly EX at MDRA. Certs still required. You might very well be correct about the age, but it should still be run by Neil M.

iam debating moving to maryland just for MDRA Thats the greatest priviledge of being non-affiliated and having your own insurance. We follow the same rules as you guys do since our rules came from MDRA's.We didn't have anything like MDRA down in the south until we started SERA up almost a year ago. But with our Ex program, I doubt we would just allow anyone non-certified to fly EX. We wouldnt care to much about the 21 year old rule, but do care about eperience and how much that person knows as far as rocketry and motor building skills. When i mentioned NAR I was basically saying NAR doesnt recognize EX at any launches.TRA allows it but must be flown on a seperate day from the commercial. We do the nom-sanctioned events where all you need to do is bring all your motors and a cert card/paper saying what level you are and you can fly any type of motor in your level.

 

[rstaff3]

I checked with Neil and there is no 21 yr old restriction. If you are L1 you can fly L1 EX stuff, etc. He said that there might be a bit more scrutiny of, say, construction and recovery systems for a youngish EX flier.

 

[ynotusean88]

We have finally agreed upon a design for our first EX rocket it will be primly constructed out of cardboard and ¼ in aircraft plywood. The rocket is toped off with a 10 in hollow nose cone made out of pine. Our fins are based upon black brant fin design. We are using an 5 min epoxy which has a tensile strength of 1500psi. Which we are hoping will hold up. I will attach a rocketsim 8 file which contains our design.

If any one has any design tips or modifications to our design, I really like to hear from rocketries who have more expertise in this sort of thing than we do.

Also it was suggested to me that we should put a fiberglass cloth and coating over the fins and the rocket in order to straighten our rocket, should we try this.

We are also hope full to have another full scale test of our EX rocket motor in the very near future (probably after the thanksgiving day holiday) video clips will be posted as soon as the test is completed and analyzed, by means of a force plate.

Once again thank you to every one who has posted so far, especially – MarkM, Reed Goodwin, jcrocket, Badboy1982, rstaff3.



Rstaff3, how was the MDRA meeting last Thursday, also if we were to come to a MDRA launch you or another person with level 1 clearance could launch the rocket for us, once we have explained in depth about our construction methods and procedure. The safety precautions be hide the manufacturing process.

One last thing what would be the best way to eject our parachute from the rocket with out having a direct ejection change linked to the motor. I have looked through the recovery forums but have come up empty handed and confused.

 

[BrnAgainRoc]

Originally posted by ynotusean88
One last thing what would be the best way to eject our parachute from the rocket with out having a direct ejection change linked to the motor. I have looked through the recovery forums but have come up empty handed and confused.

You will need to use an altimeter. Give Jim Amos over at Missileworks.com a hollar and drop $90 for best alt in the market imo. There will be a few to argue this but this simple altimeter has never failed me so ill recommend it fully to anyone.You will need to use dual deployment. There will be a blackpowder charge on both sides of the E-bay thatll go off at certain altitudes. The first charge which will seperate the the lower half first will go off first then the other charge will eject your parachute/nosecone. $90 is a small price to pay for something you will use ALOT in this hobby once you get into our larger birds. As for the fiberglassing? How fast is this rocket going to go? Will it break mach? Will it be flying on M motors? I dont think you will need fiberglass for the rocket KNO3 motor powered rocket your building. Fiberglass would be overkill in my opinion. If i was you id do strong through the body fins attachment with good strong fillets. That should get your rocket prepped for flight without any drastic modifications or body work that could be just a waste of time in the first place. Good luck guys.

 

[rstaff3]

Originally posted by ynotusean88


Rstaff3, how was the MDRA meeting last Thursday, also if we were to come to a MDRA launch you or another person with level 1 clearance could launch the rocket for us, once we have explained in depth about our construction methods and procedure. The safety precautions be hide the manufacturing process.

I generally don't attend the meetings. It would be better if there was an adult member the 'team' that built it to act as your representative.

As mentioned above, you will need an altimeter for ejection. This leads to the need for black powder etc. Opinions about altimeters vary. I like my G-Wiz. It has apogee and main channels as well as one that will fire either on launch detect or motor burn-out. My next one will most likely be the ARTs, which you can read about on the Loki site. BTW Loki is one of our on-site vendors (most of the time).

You should not need fiberglass for an I440. However, it will make the rocket more durable and it would last longer. Glassing isn't a bad thing to learn to do if you will keep at it

Keep asking questions.

 

[cjl]

yep, an altimiter is definitely the way to go. You'll need an alt bay, and you can make it dual or single deploy. Dual is slightly more expensive (only by the cost of extra cord, a couple of U-bolts, and an extra small chute (possibly), but it shortens the walking distance necessary for retrieval. I will join Badboy in reccomending the RRC2. I have yet to have a faliure, and it is a wonderful, and not too complicated dual deployment altimiter. Another option would be to use a timer, but I would highly reccomend an altimiter.

 

[BrnAgainRoc]

For an I motor you will be using what case? I use the Loki 480 38mm case for all my I's even for Ex. Very beautiful cases and you cant beat the stuff that Jeff Taylor and his group build. The rpices are great and so is the performance. I launch KNO3 in my loki cases and the nozzles hold up nicely so you dont gotta worry about a different increase in kn every flight.Dick has a good point Id really consider having an adult that has taken part in the build of the rocket to fly that rocket if you plan to do it at a launch club field. Just some clubs/organizations are a little cautious about people they've never seen before to show up without a TRA/NAR membership and want to launch HPR's specially being underage. You guys seem to be going in a good direction keep us informed on your progress and get pics. Also if you can send me a personal pm or email id liek to know what processes you have taken to build your kno3 motors.

 

[MarkM]

ynotusean88...you're asking all the right questions. On this while everyone seems to agree that you need an altimeter, you'll get a lot of opinions of which one.

If you don't use an altimeter you complicate your EX motor. To use what is known as "motor ejection" you would have to forumlate a delay burn grain and have it light the black powder for your ejection charge at a specific time after motor burnout...not something for the new EXer to do, IMO.

So, altimeter recovery is your only option. Using altimeter based recovery is actually better because you don't need to figure out the delay time required between motor burnout and ejection charge firing....the altimeter essentially takes care of this for you by detecting when the rocket is at apogee. Altimeter bays are not that difficult to construct, there are several threads on TRF describing altimeter bay construction.

As for brands of altimeters, there are several out there that are popular. You'll get a variety of opinons of fliers' preferences. All the ones mentioned work, and work very well. The issue is cost, features, future uses of the altimeter, and perhaps preferences of fliers in your club (once you find one). I had my first altimeter flight this last weekend and it went perfectly. I used the Adept ALTS25. I did quite a bit of research and asking other fliers in our club before making my choice. True, it's more expensive ($165) than the MissleWorks, but I it had some features I liked that some of the other less expensive altimeters did not have. You can easily pay more than that. The choice is yours, but you unquestionably need an altimeter to fly your EX motor.

Keep in mind that one altimeter can service all the rockets in your fleet---just construct a removeable mounting board that fits into the altimeter bay and the altimeter is portable between rockets.

Good luck with your rocket build.

 

[BrnAgainRoc]

Originally posted by MarkM
If you don't use an altimeter you complicate your EX motor. To use what is known as "motor ejection" you would have to forumlate a delay burn grain and have it light the black powder for your ejection charge at a specific time after motor burnout...not something for the new EXer to do, IMO.

Jimmy Yawn has created such delay grains that are fairly simple but techical increased to build. What iam saying its not the easiest thing to create and get to work the way you had planned. But once you get it down path and learn the charcteristics of the times and cutting some out to make the times shorter itll become a good EX ejection charge method for motor deployment. Jimmy yawn has done a fair amount of work with this using specifically KNO3 as his oxidizer for his motors.So id recommend if you DO happen to decide to use motor deployment then go to his site and look around and read. A small portion of this hobby specially in EX is trial and error. Just make sure to keep records of what fails and passes so you dont forget what ya did to create a working part of your deployment. But in the end i still say go with altimeter itll save you alot of time and blackpower,lol.

 

[rstaff3]

Motor ejection is not for newbies to EX.

 

[ynotusean88]

Happy turkey day. Me and my project members worked on our project over the long week and constructed fin from 1/4 in thick aircraft plywood. We use a palm and belt sander to temper and sharpen the leading edge of the fins.

We would like to know how we should attach our fins to our rocket body tube. We were think about cutting a tab insert hole just like Estes model rockets. Also we are going to attach faring to the fins and the body tube. If there is any better way to attach the fins to the rocket please let me know.

Also I would like to know how I should rig up our ejection system in our rocket.

One more question how can I make a homemade igniter that we could use in our rocket.

 

[MarkM]

You should cut a fin slot in the body tube, pass the fin through the slot and glue it to the motor mount (known as through-the-wall -TTW). Then, run epoxy fillets along both sides of the fin where the fin attaches to the motor mount and where the fin passes through the finslot on the inside and outside of the body tube.

For construction of an electronics bay or altimeter bay there are TONS of threads here on TRF for that. On TRF, use search terms such as "ebay" and "alt bay" for starters. Don't forget you need to BUY an altimeter...read the previous posts for recommendations. As commented, making a motor ejection charge is NOT for person green to EX, and especially high power rocketry, in general. That's a bad idea and not sure if RSOs will sign off on clearance for the motor to fly.

 

[BrnAgainRoc]

depending on the size of the motor i thinkan rso would sign off on. but being non-certified and you taking part in ex building then id say they wouldnt. motor ejection with ex motors is an all around bad idea cause if the delay/charge fails you could cause some damage. so go with altimeter.

 

[ynotusean88]

Here are some pics of my group’s static test of our I motor., There is a computer in the background protected by a wooden table, which is recording the amount of thrust our rocket produced. This produced around 90 lbs of thrust. Hopefully in a week or so I can get video of another static launch of the same motor by with modification done to it. And of course the motor was light by an electrical starter from a control pad more than 300ft away, due to safety reasons.

The first pic was taken as the rocket was spoiling up to the right chamber pressure.

Second pic was taken at the peak thrust of the burn.

The third was taken once all the fuel was spent and was going though a “coast mode”

All happened during a span to 3 seconds.