Black Powder High Power

[sr205347d]

Just wondering if many people do it by design. I was sort of forced into it when I bought an old NCR Phantom 4000. It has one motor mount tube that is a hair too small for a 29mm reload case or single use composite motor. The only 29mm motors I found that would fit are Estes black powder. But a single F15 would not have enough thrust to get it off the pad. So I added two 24mm external motor pods. It flies great with an F15-4 and two E12-4s. But, since the total propellant weight is over 125 grams, it qualifies as high power.





The BP initial high thrust peak followed by a lower sustained thrust give it a slow, scale-like climb.



Show us your BPHP rockets!

 

[B_RadB]

BP clusters rule! Central 29mm F15, with 8 25mm E12 surrounding. And sometimes they are spectacular
View attachment 06e09503-3ff8-45a4-834d-28c4cb16d0ca-1_all_9992.jpgView attachment 06e09503-3ff8-45a4-834d-28c4cb16d0ca-1_all_9994.jpg

 

[sr205347d]

BP clusters rule! Central 29mm F15, with 8 25mm E12 surrounding. And sometimes they are spectacular

Looks like you had two CATOs!

I am hoping that if I have an E12 CATO in one of the pods, the motor will simply eject out the back without destroying the rocket. Now, if the central F15 CATOs . . .

 

[Rocketjunkie]

Ultimate 24 on 7 E12 or E9, Ultimate 29 on 7 F15. Rack rocket, 4 stage F15. Will be bringing to this Dalzell launch.
Rack
Ultimate on F15s
Ultimate on E9s

 

[mtnmanak]

Once you get more than a few motors in a BP cluster in 24mm and 29mm, it is very difficult to stay in MPR range.

My Jr. Swarm with 12 x E12's is the equivalent of an I136 motor, so solidly in the High Power category. Heck, even using D12's pushes the rocket in mid-H impulse.

 

[Daddyisabar]

HI PO BP ODDROCS ROCK!

Three F15 canted tractor motors on a tapeworm.


6×D12 in widely spaced pods on a B58 Hustler. (5xD12 3 and 1xD12 5 for poor boy dual deploy.)


4xD12 3 or 5 in widely spaced pods and 4xC6 0 plugged (2 canted tractors and 2 mid cants) on an Avro Lancaster.


3xF15 high cant tractors on a Crazy Train.


3xF15 mid cants on an Albatross DV
View attachment DSC03822.JPG

3xF15 straight tractors on an Undead Pict Warrior.


4xF15 slightly canted tractors on a Xenomorph Barbie Transport.

 

[Art Upton]

Once you get more than a few motors in a BP cluster in 24mm and 29mm, it is very difficult to stay in MPR range.

My Jr. Swarm with 12 x E12's is the equivalent of an I136 motor, so solidly in the High Power category. Heck, even using D12's pushes the rocket in mid-H impulse.

View attachment 640204

That is how we did BP HPR in the 80s. My LOC Ultimate 29 I got in 1989; after I started HPR clusters bigger than 3* motors with a LOC Heavy Duty Beauty which was/is a LOC IV with 4 24mm outboards and a 29mm center.

*Using 2250 2.6" rockets with FSI-F100s [Which were really F50s]

 

[mtnmanak]

That is how we did BP HPR in the 80s. My LOC Ultimate 29 I got in 1989.

Definitely - my first cluster I think I ever built was the K36 Saturn V Kit in the mid-70's which had a modular mount to allow a single 24mm motor or a cluster of 3x18mm motors (I still have an unopened K36 kit somewhere in the house!) - and I have been hooked on clusters ever since.

 

[Daddyisabar]

Looks like you had two CATOs!

I am hoping that if I have an E12 CATO in one of the pods, the motor will simply eject out the back without destroying the rocket. Now, if the central F15 CATOs . . .

Catos in big BP clusters suck!


Darn you Estes!

 

[bad_idea]

So far my biggest black powder cluster was 4 E12s. Working on a rocket to take 5 E12s and have another early in planning that will take 7 E12s or 4 29mms. All of these are 3" or smaller and high-power by propellant mass only.

At some point I want to delve into 4" and larger tubes and get into legitimate high power impulse with black powder. I have the dilapidated remains of a 5.5" rocket built by a sadly deceased rocketeer, and from time to time I think about bringing it back to life to fly on 15 F15s.

 

[MClark]

I flew Rocketflite H motors.
We sponsored a black powder altitude contest back when dinosaurs roamed the earth. Winner was 3 stage Rocketflite to 10k+.


https://www.rocketryforum.com/threads/ahpra-black-powder-altitude-contest.44483/#post-427323

 

[ReynoldsSlumber]

Though it's short of high power, and I don't have a photo of it, here's a representation of the "Cluster F." I never managed to fly it on a calm enough day to go for employing the full complement of 6 C6's, but can recommend a mix of pusher plus tractor black powder motors as a means of keeping the CG forward and, conjecturally, of keeping the base drag down.

 

[Sooner Boomer]

Clusters, you say? Gotta post a picture of my buddy, Braz.

 

[smstachwick]

This one flew at Fall 2021 ROCstock on 52 E12s, I’m pretty sure this was @DeeRoc29 ’s creation.



With certified specs, that works out to a K581.

 

[shockie]

Back when dinosaurs roamed the earth, they clusteted FSI F100's.

Anybody cluster RocketFlites GH BP motors?

 

[John Kemker]

Back when dinosaurs roamed the earth, they clusteted FSI F100's.

Anybody cluster RocketFlites GH BP motors?

Don't know. However, I do remember a Rocketflite motor taped to a dowel and flown as a "bottle rocket" in the parking lot of the hotel in Orangeburg for LDRS XIX. It landed on the roof of the hotel.

 

[Art Upton]

Don't know. However, I do remember a Rocketflite motor taped to a dowel and flown as a "bottle rocket" in the parking lot of the hotel in Orangeburg for LDRS XIX. It landed on the roof of the hotel.

They were doing that at the Danville Illinois launches as well, just outside the Hotel parking lot to the south was the flying field of harvested corn rows.

 

[Rocketjunkie]

I've rack rocket 5 G160SS motors. This was in 1993.

 

[kramer714]

(19) E-`12 motors, 27.2 Ns per = 516Ns or a 60% I motor. Used a pie pan and black powder to light them.

 

[ZEDL1]

This one flew at Fall 2021 ROCstock on 52 E12s, I’m pretty sure this was @DeeRoc29 ’s creation.

View attachment 640330

With certified specs, that works out to a K581.

I'm guessing that "flash-in-the-pan ignition was used?

 

[smstachwick]

I’d assume so, I’d rather walk home from the lakebed than try to get that thing up with Estes igniters

 

[Daddyisabar]

I've rack rocket 5 G160SS motors. This was in 1993.

The good ole days! Who needs booster motors in their rack rocket! That would have been really cool at night.

 

[Daddyisabar]

View attachment 640956
View attachment 640958

View attachment 640962

(19) E-`12 motors, 27.2 Ns per = 516Ns or a 60% I motor. Used a pie pan and black powder to light them.

Given the recent bad batches and date codes for E12s would this still work today? Would a CATO or two or three make any difference?

 

[John Taylor]

So far my biggest black powder cluster was 4 E12s. Working on a rocket to take 5 E12s and have another early in planning that will take 7 E12s or 4 29mms. All of these are 3" or smaller and high-power by propellant mass only.

At some point I want to delve into 4" and larger tubes and get into legitimate high power impulse with black powder. I have the dilapidated remains of a 5.5" rocket built by a sadly deceased rocketeer, and from time to time I think about bringing it back to life to fly on 15 F15s.

Realize that Estes E12's are prone to catos. Check the MESS reports, they are at the top of the list.

 

[bad_idea]

Realize that Estes E12's are prone to catos. Check the MESS reports, they are at the top of the list.

Yes. I've flown them a lot in three and four motor clusters without incident so far, but I'm aware there's a risk they'll go boom someday.

So far the only black powder CATO I've had in three years back in rocketry and several hundred black powder motors was an E16, but if I were to bet on it, I'd figure an E12 or an A10 would be the most likely to blow, and I've built clusters for both of those motors.

 

[Daddyisabar]

Yes. I've flown them a lot in three and four motor clusters without incident so far, but I'm aware there's a risk they'll go boom someday.

So far the only black powder CATO I've had in three years back in rocketry and several hundred black powder motors was an E16, but if I were to bet on it, I'd figure an E12 or an A10 would be the most likely to blow, and I've built clusters for both of those motors.

I want your luck...or buy motors from your source. I've never had an Estes 29mm cato, fingers crossed. Only two A10 catos and one 18mm cato, fingers double crossed. E12 and D12 Catos...don't want to talk about it.

 

[mlytle0]

It would probably never happen, but it would be cool if Estes took the 60 gram propellant limit in use in the 24 mm F15 motors and pressed it into a 38 mm casing. Assuming you could do that, you'd get a higher average thrust even for an end burner, a shorter burn time, and maybe with that, a more reliable engine. In BP engines, longer burn times have more reliability problems.

But probably not something they would do, they already produce 4 diameters of motors.

 

[DeeRoc29]

I'm guessing that "flash-in-the-pan ignition was used?

Yessir. Flash pan is the only way to go.

 

[Rocketjunkie]

If you fire a BP motor at more than 75F lower than it has ever seen, it's likely to cato. This is the main reason BP motors cato.
Example, the motor has seen 125F in your car during the summer. You fire it in the winter at 35F. Cato waiting to happen.

 

[ZEDL1]

Very cool flight and recovery DeeRoc29. I've not seen many get it that right over the years. That said, not that many have tried a cluster of that size. Again, very well done.