Beginner with big dreams

[BABAR]

My wife’s favorite saying is, “Reach for the Sun, and be happy if you get the Moon and the Stars.” So dreams are great. But as you’ve said, unless you are a mega billionaire, this will take a team. Might I suggest you start with a local rocket club, rub shoulders and share experience with some people who have launched high power rockets. Might help you get more perspective on what you are shooting for, and if you aren’t careful you may make some good friends and have some fun!

 

[Zeus-cat]

He needs a team; this is not something one person can do. The first people on the team should be a legal person, a government liaison for whatever country he will try to launch from (he used Pounds so I am guessing somewhere in the UK), a safety/quality engineer, etc. I would line up these people before even thinking of an airframe design or motor. If you can't get approvals to launch there is no sense pouring money into hardware.

 

[tsmith1315]

It's a wonderful thing to dream about! Alas, you can't go crossing international borders without being taken quite seriously.

Amateur rocketry is limited to 150km and 200,000 lb-sec. Which is enough to drain most well-padded pocketbooks, exhaust your list of really good friends and thoroughly challenge a marriage. IIRC, moving beyond those limits regulates you as a commercial launch.

https://www.faa.gov/space/
I don't know if the aRocket list is still active, that would be a group of like-minded people who are (or were) serious and have learned many of the lessons that you'll need to learn.

 

[CoyoteNumber2]

Absolutely get in contact with the federal government (I'd start with the FAA and see where they direct you) before spending a lot of time on this.

https://www.faa.gov/space/

I don't think the FAA has jurisdiction in the United Kingdom.

 

[PayLoad]

It is my understanding - I may be wrong - once in space there is no jurisdiction

 

[Ronz Rocketz]

Elon Musk said he named his capsule the Dragon because everyone said it was a mystical beast that couldn't exist. Now he's going to crash a Tesla into Mars, so dreams can happen.

I would start by watching every Scott Manley video.



Sir Branson has tried launching from a 747. I've never heard of a balloon launch. The advantage of launching under a wing is that you already have forward velocity in a near vertical ascent.



If Andy Griffith could do it, anyone can.

 

[BABAR]

It is my understanding - I may be wrong - once in space there is no jurisdiction

Perhaps. But Space is not like Vegas. What happens in Space doesn’t always STAY in Space, and what is LAUNCHED into space doesn’t always get there (in fact, in LPR Rocketry what is launched doesn’t always leave the pad.....)

Sometime fecoturbine interaction occurs, and if it happens while crossing international boundaries.....

I believe the Chinese have had experiences where launched rockets didn’t always make it and ended up coming down in populated areas.....at least in those cases I believe it was in their OWN country.

Seems reasonable that if the original poster wants to be a leader in this endeavor he or she should as a minimum achieve high power Rocketry certification in his or her own country.

 

[tsmith1315]

Balloon launch isn't common, but not new either. Goes back to the beginning of the space race. More recently:
https://www.jpaerospace.com/rockoons.html
https://newatlas.com/zero2infinity-balloon-rocket-launch/34315/
It seems like there were college team(s) working on high-altitude rockoons a decade or two ago.

I don't think the FAA has jurisdiction in the United Kingdom.

Sorry, I didn't realize the OP is in the UK

It is my understanding - I may be wrong - once in space there is no jurisdiction

You're probably right about that.

 

[Ronz Rocketz]

So here is my question. How would he know if the rocket achieved orbit? Most rockets go up and then back down so the data can be accessed. If it achieves orbit, the data is up there. Other agencies have tracking stations that can receive the data as it's transmitted from orbit. Reentry from orbit is problematic...

 

[Funkworks]

How would he know if the rocket achieved orbit?

I think the mission includes a landing.

Privatisation is quite recent and the private entities I know of that reached orbit (not that I’ve seriously looked into it) had many revenue streams: sales, investors, separate stable companies from a same owner, i.e. they are real companies with tons of employees.

However, there are a few individuals who have been willing to pay 20M to 40M to hitch a ride on the space station.

So maybe out there, there’s a few people willing to spend tens (or hundreds) of millions to put a smartphone in orbit just for the heck of it.

Not me though. My next project involves styrofoam coffee cups and I’m quite ok with that.

 

[NateB]

Not me though. My next project involves styrofoam coffee cups and I’m quite ok with that.

It certainly would be cool to launch a rocket into orbit and recover it, but I know I would have a better shot getting a job with Space X or Virgin Galactic than ever coming close to doing such a thing on my own. Heck, I'd have a better chance becoming a moon medic if Luna Park were to become a reality in my lifetime.

I would -someday- like to fly a rocket into the Space Equivalent Zone. It would be a lofty goal but one that is attainable and has been zone by people on this board.

 

[Joshua F Thomas]

So here is my question. How would he know if the rocket achieved orbit?

There are a few options...

1) The rocket didn't come back down to earth! Congrats you made orbit
2) You receive visit from some very concerned gov't officials

 

[NateB]

2) You receive visit from some very concerned gov't officials

Shoot n scoot?

Or make sure your launch field can also accommodate a fleet of black helicopters and maybe a squadron of fighter jets.

 

[neil_w]

Did we chase away the OP?

 

[SDramstad]

You could have internet access through the Spacex Starlink system once it is operational. I can report back no matter where it is.

 

[Spitfire222]

Did we chase away the OP?

To be honest, and with all due respect to the people who have commented here, I'm surprised anyone deigned to respond with such serious replies, as if the OP was ever going to get close to their objective. I apologize for being negative, but I'm being realistic here. Over the years of participating in forums for my various hobbies, there's always posts like this ("I've never flown an RC aircraft before but I want my first plane to be giant-scale turbine jet"). A red flag tends to be the person touting their education/experience (in this case, as if an engineering degree in electronics is relevant at this point). I think that if someone isn't willing to take the time to build up their experience in a safe and controlled manner, then they were never going to have the discipline to see their project through to the end.

None of that really matters here anyways. The above would mostly be relevant for a beginner trying to go L3 with their first rocket, for example. A beginner trying to make an orbit of the Earth is, I'm sorry to say, laughable. People above mentioned that Elon Musk and Richard Branson were equally panned, but they were literal billionaires. And they didn't start off with a post on a hobbyist rocket site asking for advice.

 

[Ronz Rocketz]

Who are we to judge? Now if he was planning to ride the rocket to witness the curvature of the Earth...

 

[Funkworks]

To be honest, and with all due respect to the people who have commented here, I'm surprised anyone deigned to respond with such serious replies, as if the OP was ever going to get close to their objective.

As a classroom kind of person who's new to mid-power and also from another field of sci-tech, I kept an open mind. Also, I think the goal of minimizing the size of a rocket able to reach orbital is interesting. The OP can now judge where he can fit it in. If it's to get find a job with an aerospace company to learn the trade, so be it.

 

[dhbarr]

• if liquid-fueled, must have a source of liquid oxygen and the means of handling cryogenic liquids; or source and handling of highly toxic and corrosive N2O4.

Quite interesting work has been done with non-corrosive, non-hypergolic light-cryo ( -40 ). Battery powered turbopumps and self-pressurizing fuel/oxy combos complete a fairly fascinating well-heeled amateur project sketch.

 

[Dwatkins]

I don't think the FAA has jurisdiction in the United Kingdom.

These limits are by international Treaties. Something about dropping your rocket in a foreign country who now thinks your attacking them might be an issue.

 

[Bat-mite]

I don't think the FAA has jurisdiction in the United Kingdom.

Undoubtedly. Nothing clued me in to the fact that the OP is in the UK, and I am an ethnocentric boob.

 

[Voyager1]

Undoubtedly. Nothing clued me in to the fact that the OP is in the UK, and I am an ethnocentric boob.

I think you’ll find the clues in the first part of the PDF.

“End Objective
Send a rocket around the world in low orbit from the UK, where it will also land while broadcasting the video images of the earth as it goes round.
Restrictions
Rocket must built materials that can be manufactured or obtained by the average citizen in the UK. Must not exceed the code of £1000 to lift 1 kilogram into low orbit.
Must be reusable, the engine hosing is not to be considered disposable.“

Given that the OP wishes to do this as a “hobby“ I don’t think we can take this proposal as any more than an interesting thought bubble. We all have big dreams, but for most of us reality kicks in. Better to start with more realistic goals and go from there. “£1000 to lift 1 kilogram into low orbit”?

 

[PayLoad]

This thread received FAR more attention than it deserved. And the wrong type of attention at that

 

[Ronz Rocketz]

It's not like he's gonna use a bunch of German scientists to crash a rocket in France, right?

 

[Joshua F Thomas]

This now has me wondering about the energy necessary to put a model rocket (call it 1000 g) into low earth orbit.

 

[heada]

This now has me wondering about the energy necessary to put a model rocket (call it 1000 g) into low earth orbit.

Ignore drag and altitude and just calculate the thrust needed to accelerate 1kg to 8km/s (lateral velocity needed for orbit)

 

[neil_w]

Great video!

 

[Ronz Rocketz]

Ignore drag and altitude and just calculate the thrust needed to accelerate 1kg to 8km/s (lateral velocity needed for orbit)

Then you'll need horizontal velocity. Otherwise the rocket will either come back down or keep on going, right? That's why it's so much more difficult to launch from the UK and why ESA launches from French Guiana.

https://goo.gl/maps/4cGrL3HK3NvekDc86

 

[KilroySmith]

This now has me wondering about the energy necessary to put a model rocket (call it 1000 g) into low earth orbit.

To get up to 100 km, the change in potential energy is:
PE = mgh = 1kg * 9.8 m/s^2 * 100,000m = 1x10^6 N-m
To accelerate to 8 km/s, the change in kinetic energy is:
KE = 1/2 mv^2 = 0.5 * 1kg * (8000 m/s)^2 = 32x10^6 N-m
So, it takes 32 times the energy to reach orbital velocity as it does to reach orbital altitude on earth, ignoring the weight of your motors/propellant and aerodynamics. Total energy would then be 33x10^6 N-m.

By way of comparison, a Toyota Camry has a mass of about 1500 kg. The energy to get your 1kg payload to 100 km is about the same as the energy necessary to accelerate that Camry to 130 km/hr., ignoring, well, you know.

 

[heada]

Then you'll need horizontal velocity. Otherwise the rocket will either come back down or keep on going, right? That's why it's so much more difficult to launch from the UK and why ESA launches from French Guiana.

https://goo.gl/maps/4cGrL3HK3NvekDc86

Math/physics type quiz question: Assume you're at 100km in a rocket with a mass of 1kg and you have no drag. What would it take to accelerate your rocket to 8km/s horizontal velocity? Next would be what rocket would it take to support that motor and add that mass and recalculate. Last step is to figure out how to get it up to 100km but that's the easier part.