A toast to Odd'l Rockets

[Jiggs Henry]

Beginning my Break Away tonight with a generous pour of Weller special reserve. Chris if you read this, cheers! Been enjoying your blog immensely and knew my next build had to be an Odd'l one! I gotta learn to tie some knots!

 

[BABAR]

It’s a great flier. Nice small field rocket, comes down fast , does lot have a chute or streamer so can be hard to track if it goes to high.

not sure if it is in the instructions, but if you are going to paint segments different colors, you may consider various methods to paint the individual segments separately.

straight trails!

 

[KenECoyote]

I built mine years ago as one of my first non-standard recovery rockets and loved it. Estes has the Wacky Wiggler, which is a plastic version of this and comes down a bit faster. The Break-Away is cardboard, so if you send it high on a hot day it can even ride thermals a bit (happened to me).

Enjoy the build!

 

[Jiggs Henry]

Well it figures when I try to continue working on this without the aid of bourbon that I make a mistake. Hopefully one that can be fixed. Step 10 explicitly reads not to use glue until you have read this step. I guess I thought I had sanded the centering rings enough to fit the mount inside the the but alas it got stuck inside before the entire mount was inserted. Did I use too much glue? Or should I have sanded inside the tube instead of the rings? Photos below, I was able to remove the stuck mount before the glue set but it appears to have torn a layer of paper from the first ring

 

[Huxter]

No Bourbon

I think we've all had the engine get stuck before final resting place! Many of us use epoxy now because of that. 30-min epoxy does not grab like that. If using white/yellow glue, I make sure the engine can slide easily into tube end. Then I practice exactly what/how I'm gonna install the engine - this makes sure I have everything on hand and ready. Then do not dottle! Place glue and insert engine without delay. I usually turn/twist the engine 90 * while inserting to get the glue spread well/even.

Choices now are to start over (buying new parts), or just keep going (if kit allows). I usually just keep going!

Good luck

 

[Jiggs Henry]

Yeah I kept going prepping and marking the couplers while my mistake dries
Probably will sand down the inside of the tube and try again lol

 

[BABAR]

White glue can still lock, but gives you more work time. Still wise to dry fit a few times and be ready to do it smoothly and promptly.

 

[KenECoyote]

Yeah I kept going prepping and marking the couplers while my mistake dries
Probably will sand down the inside of the tube and try again lol

Try using a very small flat screwdriver to push into the engine block ring and pry up the layers, then thin needle nose pliers to pull & twist it out.

Then if needed, sand a bit with sandpaper around a dowel, test fit an engine and try a new ring.

Did you apply glue to the ring or the tube?

I usually use a chopstick with the depth of the engine marked, apply glob of glue to the inside of the tube, repeat (too much glue is better than too little) - that way the engine block ring doesn't go very far after hitting the glue, so it's less likely to bind before that. Good luck!

 

[Jiggs Henry]

Try using a very small flat screwdriver to push into the engine block ring and pry up the layers, then thin needle nose pliers to pull & twist it out.

Then if needed, sand a bit with sandpaper around a dowel, test fit an engine and try a new ring.

Did you apply glue to the ring or the tube?

I usually use a chopstick with the depth of the engine marked, apply glob of glue to the inside of the tube, repeat (too much glue is better than too little) - that way the engine block ring doesn't go very far after hitting the glue, so it's less likely to bind before that. Good luck!

Yeah I applied the glue inside the tube not on the ring as per the instructions but it didn't specify how deep, I think the intention is for both rings to use the same ring of glue, so I used more rather than less, but the fit was just too tight and I didn't realize it until the damage was done. Oh, I'll make it work, trust me. Very excited to keep going and not at all discouraged. Just have ingested much info and tips online but haven't had the hands on experience. Maybe should have done another estes 3FNC model or 2 before attempting something from a builder's brand.

 

[KenECoyote]

Yeah I applied the glue inside the tube not on the ring as per the instructions but it didn't specify how deep, I think the intention is for both rings to use the same ring of glue, so I used more rather than less, but the fit was just too tight and I didn't realize it until the damage was done. Oh, I'll make it work, trust me. Very excited to keep going and not at all discouraged. Just have ingested much info and tips online but haven't had the hands on experience. Maybe should have done another estes 3FNC model or 2 before attempting something from a builder's brand.

To be honest, I wasn't fully certain of the task and mistake (been almost a decade since I've built mine), but if you need help or advice on fixing, do ask and include more pics.

 

[Jiggs Henry]

I was able to remove the pieces from inside the tube and have sanded it back smooth, now my issue is the first ring needs to be thicker so I'm adding layers of wood glue which I'm hoping will do the trick even though it may take a while. I did work ahead and get all the couplers ready without issue, so now I just need to get that mount glued in to continue.

 

[neil_w]

Yeah I applied the glue inside the tube not on the ring as per the instructions but it didn't specify how deep, I think the intention is for both rings to use the same ring of glue,

This is usually not the case in my experience, and will result in needing to pull the forward ring a long way through the tube after it has glue on it. This is a recipe for getting stuck.

My normal procedure would be to put the ring of glue (using a chopstick or dowel or whatever) inside the tube just short of where the ring will end up. This way there isn’t far to go after the ring hits the glue.

Then I put the mount in about halfway (not touching the glue) and sneak some glue into the inside of end of the tube for the rear ring. Then push.

Don’t know exactly what @hcmbanjo recommends in his kits… I have a Breakaway in my build pile but haven’t cracked it open yet.

Oh and yeah, white glue is good for engine mounts (LPR) as is epoxy, to avoid seizing. Except when using epoxy (where it doesn’t matter), using more glue is good to provide lubrication.

Finally: those paper rings, with their porous surface and large surface area, require extra care to avoid seizing.

 

[Antares JS]

I test fit first and then apply a fairly generous amount of white glue until my fingertip slides around the inside of the tube easily. If you have enough glue, it will initially act like lubricant before drying hard. The test fit is the most important part though. Make sure you can get your motor mount in with one smooth motion.

As for painting, definitely paint the tubes before gluing any couplers in if you want to do all different colors. Mine is a 7-color rainbow from the red nose to the purple fin unit.

 

[KenECoyote]

Mine was done with a Lego Movie theme for my daughter. Good memories!

 

[BABAR]

I was able to remove the pieces from inside the tube and have sanded it back smooth, now my issue is the first ring needs to be thicker so I'm adding layers of wood glue which I'm hoping will do the trick even though it may take a while. I did work ahead and get all the couplers ready without issue, so now I just need to get that mount glued in to continue.

Okay, as I understand it, you put the mount in, it locked, and when you got it out, a piece of the CENTERING ring paper tore off, so you have (or had) a piece of paper gumming up the tube on the wrong place, and a layer of paper missing from the outside of one of the centering rings.

sounds like you somehow got the paper out of the inside of the tube, so the tube inside is now clean and smooth, and your concern is that the centering ring missing a layer is too small.

for low power a VERY easy fix.

put a piece of masking tape say 8 inches long on a glass door or window. Cut a long strip the width of your centering ring. wrap One circumference (one layer) around the centering ring, and DRY fit it. If still too loose, add another layer. I doubt you will need more than two, but in any case easy to build it up until it slides smoothly but firmly in place.

for small differences between tubes (BT-5 to 20, or BT-20 to 50) I have built entire centering rings just with tape wraps.

as @Antares JS says, ALWAYS dry fit parts (motor blocks, motor mounts, through the wall fins, pretty much anything that gets glue) at least once before applying any glue. Also concur with him on painting segments before building. go ahead and fill your spirals (if you want) and finish and attach your fins and put the launch lug on and fillet it BEFORE priming. one trick to conserve primer is to roll up some newspaper to the size of a coupler, length of rocket plus a some for a handhold. Slide the body tube segments BEFORE PUTTING IN THE COUPLERS onto the newspaper tube, leaving a space between each maybe 1/4 inch. now you can prime all the body tube segments at once, and you won’t get paint INSIDE to gum up the couplers

once primer is dry and you are happy with the finish, cut the newspaper between segments (this leaves the newspaper IN each segment which will keep paint OUT of inside when you paint.

now paint each segment desired colors. When dry remove the internal newspaper, insert The couplers, and finish the build.

 

[Jiggs Henry]

GREAT info! (you explained my mistake much better than I did lol) I had thought about using tape but was afraid it would be a solid enough bond once glued. I did test fit the mount, and I really thought it was sliding well until it seized up and of course I started to panic because I didn't expect it to happen since I did the test fit. Obviously my test fit wasn't loose enough and I sure have learned my lesson now. Also a great tip on the painting, I was planning on using two colors and alternating between the sections. I'm kicking myself for waiting 3 months into the hobby to get involved on this forum! Thanks!

 

[neil_w]

I did test fit the mount, and I really thought it was sliding well until it seized up and of course I started to panic because I didn't expect it to happen since I did the test fit. Obviously my test fit wasn't loose enough and I sure have learned my lesson now.

A tight fit is OK if you choose your glue correctly. Epoxy, for instance, is very slippery. White glue can accommodate a fairly tight fit if you use a good amount of glue and move quickly. Wood glue and a tight fit are a very bad combination.

 

[BABAR]

GREAT info! (you explained my mistake much better than I did lol) I had thought about using tape but was afraid it would be a solid enough bond once glued. I did test fit the mount, and I really thought it was sliding well until it seized up and of course I started to panic because I didn't expect it to happen since I did the test fit. Obviously my test fit wasn't loose enough and I sure have learned my lesson now. Also a great tip on the painting, I was planning on using two colors and alternating between the sections. I'm kicking myself for waiting 3 months into the hobby to get involved on this forum! Thanks!

If you haven‘t read Stine’s Handbook of Model Rocketry, I highly recommend it, it is a very pleasant read (technical Without inducing narcolepsy). It won’t prevent all the mistakes you (like all of us) will make, but it will likely prevent or mitigate a lot of them. The money you save on avoidable mistakes will more than pay for the book. Lots of good build and finish and flying tips, plus good info if you decide to test the waters of special areas of model rocketry, like staging, clusters, gliders, etc. used copies are available on Amazon for under $7 delivered to your door. Kindle is $15, new is $23

also if you can find a nearby NAR or Tripoli club (Tripoli leans a bit toward high power but they are mostly kind and welcoming for us mere L-0s) you will that flying with other enthusiasts is often more fun and a great source of free and usually good advice.

if you have a significant other, you can drop hints you want it for a Christmas present!

straight trails!

 

[Jiggs Henry]

LOL, yes, the wife is very aware I wish for Rocketry stuff for Christmas (and my birthday which is Christmas eve, the double whammy!). I actually joined my local club that meets at Johnson Space Center in the large field behind the real Saturn V. I've been to about 3 launches but work and family stuff has kept me from the last one, and probably the next one as well. The handbook is certainly on my wish list as well. The break away style was an early favorite, so I kind of rushed into it, which I had heard (and now see why) can lead to issues. Another RTF favorite that I liked was the OOP Estes Metalizer. I ended up finding one on Facebook marketplace and I'm in the process of replacing the shock cord and parachute, both of which were in poor shape. If I'm unable to finish the Break Away, the Metalizer (and my other RTFs) will be more than ready for the next launch. I still have to repair my Big Bertha too, and I'm considering starting a thread for that one as well to see what kind of innovations/ideas I can get that hopefully won't have me cutting off the 1 inch section with the crimping.. yep, I'm certainly hooked.

 

[neil_w]

I'm considering starting a thread for that one as well to see what kind of innovations/ideas I can get that hopefully won't have me cutting off the 1 inch section with the crimping.. yep, I'm certainly hooked.

Cutting out a crimped section of body tube is a pretty common way to do a repair. Many rockets get progressively shorter over their lifespan.

 

[BABAR]

A tight fit is OK if you choose your glue correctly. Epoxy, for instance, is very slippery. White glue can accommodate a fairly tight fit if you use a good amount of glue and move quickly. Wood glue and a tight fit are a very bad combination.

Epoxy has big advantage of longer working time, but shorter cure (so very low risk of lock, and you can fly pretty quick after the repair.)

cautions with epoxy, you need a well ventilated area and likely significant distance (or separate room from) between you and your significant other (the fumes stink), otherwise your significant other may decide you are no longer significant!

also always wear nitrile gloves when messing with epoxy, as some people develop a very unpleasant skin sensitization.

for paper to paper, white glue is as Good as any glue for strength, nontoxic, and has longer working time than yellow (great for paper/cardboard motor mounts)

for paper to wood or wood to wood, white is okay, yellow is a bit faster and may be stronger.

@kuririn has a nice technique for fins where he uses cyanoacrylate (CA or superglue) to get a quick adhesion fixation on the front and back ends of the fins, with yellow glue in the middle. Sort of the Hannah Montana “best of both worlds” before she became the adult Miley Cyrus. Maybe he can chime in here as to how exactly he does it.

here is a modified break away design.

https://www.rocketryforum.com/threads/viagara-segmented-rocket.149664/

 

[Jiggs Henry]

Cutting out a crimped section of body tube is a pretty common way to do a repair. Many rockets get progressively shorter over their lifespan.

That is what I keep hearing, especially with the Berthas... I just don't want to! I imagine I'll have to dislodge the shock cord mount since the cut will essentially raise it's level meaning it may be in the way of the nose cone shoulder.. Though it would also get me that much closer to redoing the glue fillet on the forward centering ring (suggestions I've heard thus far are using a hypodermic needle to put the glue in or a long stick). I was so happy with the paint job I'm reluctant to start any serious rocket surgery on it. Not to mention I have a few others I can focus on (the Break Away for one). Save that job for when I go through my miniscule build pile and need something "new" to do lol

 

[Jiggs Henry]

here is a modified break away design.

https://www.rocketryforum.com/threads/viagara-segmented-rocket.149664/

Funny that is one of the first threads I looked through after joining the forum - I'm kind of addicted to the Break away and all it stands for lol, hoping I end with a nice build. I'll be sure to post my progress here, nice to have folks to share it with.

 

[neil_w]

Epoxy has big advantage of longer working time, but shorter cure (so very low risk of lock, and you can fly pretty quick after the repair.)

cautions with epoxy, you need a well ventilated area and likely significant distance (or separate room from) between you and your significant other (the fumes stink), otherwise your significant other may decide you are no longer significant!

In my experience, BSI 15- and 30-minute epoxies have extremely low odor. I live in an odor-free zone and have no problem using it. Not sure about the 5-minute stuff, but I never use it.

for paper to paper, white glue is as Good as any glue for strength, nontoxic, and has longer working time than yellow (great for paper/cardboard motor mounts)

I believe that white glue has somewhat less heat resistance than yellow glue, but am having some trouble finding tech specs for it right now so not sure. Heat resistance is usually not a big deal for LPR, but could become more important around motor mounts on larger rockets.

 

[jadebox]

... but alas it got stuck inside before the entire mount was inserted.

You are in good company. I made the same mistake building my 12-foot tall Upscale Break Away! After my wife said "what have you got to lose?" I was able to fix it with a large hammer. (I wouldn't recommend using that technique on your smaller rocket.)

https://www.rocketryforum.com/threads/youbee-build.10846/#post-93764
If you are unable to fix the problem, contact Chris of Odd'l Rockets. He will help you.

 

[Jiggs Henry]

Progress! Got my segment paper paint wand ready and got the mount into the tube

 

[BABAR]

Maybe some others have suggestions for this problem I had with the rocket. First few flights were great, but then started to lose stiffness at the coupler joints, started leaning to one side to the point that it was eventually so curved that the launch was unstable. I am thinking may be best to store the rocket between flights UNcoupled. other thought was to reinforce the couplers with thin CA to make them stiffer, but definitely don’t want them to swell up and get too tight a fit.

hope you have an audience when you launch it, the unique recovery technique really is a crowd pleaser.

 

[BABAR]

. Mine is a 7-color rainbow from the red nose to the purple fin unit.

ROYGBIV?

 

[Antares JS]

ROYGBIV?

Yes.

 

[Jiggs Henry]

Maybe some others have suggestions for this problem I had with the rocket. First few flights were great, but then started to lose stiffness at the coupler joints, started leaning to one side to the point that it was eventually so curved that the launch was unstable. I am thinking may be best to store the rocket between flights UNcoupled. other thought was to reinforce the couplers with thin CA to make them stiffer, but definitely don’t want them to swell up and get too tight a fit.

hope you have an audience when you launch it, the unique recovery technique really is a crowd pleaser.

I would imagine you could use the same CA/dry/sand method first used to make them slide in and out, but then could it be the tubes themselves becoming wider? If so would it be wise to try applying the CA to the inner tube and sand down or is "the damage already done"?
Once I finish mine I'll certainly post photos and try to keep track if I start seeing the same issue. Since I'm still new enough to keep track of my launches (15 total as of this writing) maybe I'll also be able to report when this issue begins to present itself, if I too see it happen.