*RANT* Sparkies!

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I love flying the sparky motors since they usually seem to be a crowd pleaser. With any rocket flight, safety is always the most important thing. I have seen sparky motors start some pretty good ground fires but some of the worst fires have been from just your average rocket landing in the wrong place or an unstable rocket ending up in the wrong place. I fly mostly in NM and it has been pretty dry for a long time but we still fly. We make sure that the area we fly from is free of material to burn and we usually limit complex and sparky motors in higher winds. It isn't the start of the fire we are that concerned about it is how fast it can grow and get out of control.

Bill Beggs
TRA 5258 L3 TAP
NAR 70094 L3CC
ARS
 
Chuck: do you have the Sep/Oct issue of Sport Rocketry? If you do, take a look at the NSL launch and notice the field, and that sparkies were used. Green grass that is short with little to no thatch will be safe. Longer grass/weeds etc. normally found in ditches could be green ( new growth) but have inches of dry dead grass (thatch) underneath the new growth. Besides a plowed field a sod farm should be one of the safest places to fly as far as fires go. They are not going to sell dead dried out grass to anybody that wants sod!

Back to the ditch. If it is in your launch area that needs to be clear( any grass over a few inches high,with lots of thatch, a normal ditch) and you have no choice by moving the pads further away, clear it. A gas powered "weed eater" with metal blade if needed, does wonders. Take it as low to the ground as you can. Rake up the cuttings get them out of the area. Once a year should be good depending on weather conditions. The new growth, again depending on weather conditions, will not burn as long as it is green. Keep your eyes on that area.

Yellowish grass in green grass will not burn. Brown,"crispy" grass will burn. How fast a fire will spread depends upon a few things. How dense the material is, the moisture content remaining in that material, and the biggest factor, the wind speed.

It's fall, lets use leaves as an example. A freshly fallen leave will not burn as fast as one that has been laying around a week losing its internal moisture. Ok, it's been a week we have nice dry crispy leaves on the ground. I have lots of green grass still showing between the leaves. I start a leave on fire, it burned the one next to it, both went out, had some green grass between them and the next leave. Now I'm going to rake some together about ten leaves deep. I have an area 3x3 feet of leaves ten deep surrounded by green grass. I started them on fire and they totally burned up until reaching the grass and went out. This was a windless day, I would hope everyone understands what the effects of the wind speed can do. Little or no wind with anything burning will mean a much slower spread.

I would clear out any high grass if located in an area that needs to be clear whether it looks like it needs to be or not. Take it down to the ground, rake it up, and go farther than required. And regardless of where you are launching never let that morning dew fool you into thinking it is safe to launch. Material with no internal moisture left will burn regardless of that moisture on top of it. Fly safe!!

I see Jim already has answerd your question, but will post mine anyway, have been working on it the last hour between chores here!

Thanks. This is exactly what I thought. It helps to just validate my understanding. I read NFPA 1127 and found the same thing.

If sparkys are not a risk, why does NFPA make the required distance to compatibles larger?
 
rcktnut said:
Besides a plowed field a sod farm should be one of the safest places to fly as far as fires go.

I'm sorry, but that is simply not true - disregarding any other cause, with the wide, open spaces of a sod farm, the ever present breeziness means *any* fire can get out of hand so fast it will make your head spin. If you are looking at a sod farm as any different than any other site (as to fire danger), you are making a mistake.

rcktnut said:
They are not going to sell dead dried out grass to anybody that wants sod!

They are also not going to sell "dead, dried out grass" in the wintertime (or anytime after 'first frost' until 'first greening') - which is the only kind they will have when the grass (tops) have been killed back and (the rootstock) is dormant - and is indistinguishable (both in appearance and in flammability) from "dead, dried out grass". Even after 'first greening', there is enough dead tops (and thatch) to carry a flame for some moderate period of time (into the spring). Further still, even in the active growing season, if you have a few weeks without rain (or irrigation), 'green' (in color only - before the chlorophyll breaks down) grass fixing to go dormant (due to lack of water) will carry a flame.

rcktnut said:
....will not burn as long as it is green. Keep your eyes on that area.

Yellowish grass in green grass will not burn. Brown,"crispy" grass will burn.

You are worrying too much about 'color' - and being too precise in qualitative terms that is nothing more than 'rationalization ammunition' for someone (or some group) who is suffering more from 'Launch Fever' than 'common sense'.

If sparkys are not a risk, why does NFPA make the required distance to compatibles larger?

Sparkies *are* a risk, Chuck.

-- john.
 
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Quote Originally Posted by rcktnut
Besides a plowed field a sod farm should be one of the safest places to fly as far as fires go.


I'm sorry, but that is simply not true - disregarding any other cause, with the wide, open spaces of a sod farm, the ever present breeziness means *any* fire can get out of hand so fast it will make your head spin. If you are looking at a sod farm as any different than any other site (as to fire danger), you are making a mistake.

In my opening paragraph I stated green with little or no thatch, and listed wind as a major factor in determining whether to use sparkies or not. Can't agree that a sod farm is as prone to a fire than a farm field filled with stubble.


Quote Originally Posted by rcktnut
They are not going to sell dead dried out grass to anybody that wants sod!

They are also not going to sell "dead, dried out grass" in the wintertime (or anytime after 'first frost' until 'first greening') - which is the only kind they will have when the grass (tops) have been killed back and (the rootstock) is dormant - and is indistinguishable (both in appearance and in flammability) from "dead, dried out grass". Even after 'first greening', there is enough dead tops (and thatch) to carry a flame for some moderate period of time (into the spring). Further still, even in the active growing season, if you have a few weeks without rain (or irrigation), 'green' (in color only - before the chlorophyll breaks down) grass fixing to go dormant (due to lack of water) will carry a flame.

I should have added during the season (thought everyone would know better) at the time they are actively cutting it, as this is what I meant. The sod should be in tip top shape then. My lawn in spring would burn!!!


Quote Originally Posted by rcktnut
....will not burn as long as it is green. Keep your eyes on that area.
Yellowish grass in green grass will not burn. Brown,"crispy" grass will burn.

You are worrying too much about 'color' - and being too precise in qualitative terms that is nothing more than 'rationalization ammunition' for someone (or some group) who is suffering more from 'Launch Fever' than 'common sense'.

This I can agree with, lets just say either it is to dry or it's not.

Sparkies *are* a risk, Chuck.

-- john.

Yes Sparkies are a risk. My posts are imbedded in the quote underlined
 
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Quote Originally Posted by rcktnut
Besides a plowed field a sod farm should be one of the safest places to fly as far as fires go.
<snip>
Yes Sparkies are a risk. My posts are imbedded in the quote underlined

Jeff,
I will admit that I have some rather 'strong' (I guess??? I kind of refer to them as 'clear and unambiguous') opinions on these issues and I don't want to just chime in here and drop them on you (and the readers) without a little perspective of where I'm coming from with them - as that is only fair to you. I'm a little tied up until later in the week but will put some (pictorial) examples of what I'm talking about together then and share them with the TRF crowd at that time.

Suffice it to say, what will trigger a response (from me) is that I really don't feel promoting the attitude of, "Everything's fine and hunky-dory, if you just do....(thus-and-so), you don't have to worry." From my seat, that promotes a attitude of relaxed vigilance, which I think is courting disaster (in two very critical items wrt launch operations: recovery failures and launch site fires). There are far too many instances (Wayside being only the most obvious) where the major contributing factor of either of those two 'bad things' were, with the benefit of hindsight, showing (very) clear 'signals' that, "This ain't gonna end good," if the folks involved were just a little more aware and cognizant of just how fast things can get out of hand (and with just how little laxity it will take to 'release the demons'). The problem? Simple. Their 'minds were too small' (and I don't mean they were ignorant - I mean they didn't exercise enough imagination (not that they didn't have it - they didn't *use* it) to *imagine* that it could end up as it did). The exact same 'Failure of Imagination' is what we saw with 9/11 or the aftermath of Katrina. It is the *reality* of that human failing (that is no less prevalent in this hobby) that makes it very necessary to never let down our guard - nor never fall victim to, "Nahhh, that'll never happen."

Oh, yes it will.

I'll talk more in a few days.

-- john. (Launch Director and organizer for 10+ years (several years ago) at... yes... a sod farm).
 
[video=youtube;nMr3yntQbG8]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nMr3yntQbG8&list=UUZHQd8FdnPL3VB6hVSZ6MFw[/video]

Mother of Sparky catos....


The majority of the year UROC can fly sparkies. October will definitely be a go if it rained there as much as it did here these past 2 days. I don't blame them for putting that rule up at the sept. launch, but I'm definitely cheering for you for sneaking that little G sparky load in there.

Alex

We didn't set the lake bed on fire, nut we did melt some of the sand into glass! :smile:

Bob H
 
Ok, this is an old thread, but there's an issue with sparkies that hasn't been addressed. One club in the Twin Cities implemented a sparky ban due to the soil at the sod farm they formerly launched at. The soil was largely peat, which is combustible. The worry was that a spark could fall in the grass, burrow its way into the peat, smolder for a while, and then flare up into something like a coal mine fire.
 
Yes and monkeys could fly down form the sky and land on my head. Just saying.




Na JK, this just happens to be my favourite subject to troll.


TA
 
I'd like to throw my input into the thread. I'm a BAR. I've only seen one sparky fire started. Conditions were good. Rain recently. No dry grass. The flare off the pad was wide. The motor was extremely sparky. I think it was called a metalstorm. Spall fires did start under it. Right around the pad. Small and were put out with feet alone. It's the ONLY sparky fire I've ever seen.

All motors are possible fires. We take precautions. Sparkies are a little more if a hazard. So we need to stay vigilant. Fly then freely. Fly then safely. Keep a watchful eye on their effect.

I have my L1 now. I'm going to fly sparkies. I'm going to fly them carefully. If you dislike this, please stay away from our launches.
 
you should go to a night launch and just watch. The (next?) worse motor is anything Estes. Those suckers spit out a lot of flaming junk. I'm surprised that those who've made comment on the thread haven't seen a few Estes grass fires.
 
Yes, this can happen! We also fly off of a sod farm. It is planted over 20 ft deep black dirt or peat.
We did have such a fire when the field was turned over with no grass in site.
The kicker here; it wasn't a sparky!

Once again: ALL rocket motors can start fires!
On the larger motors, exhaust temperatures can reach 4500 degrees.


JD

Ok, this is an old thread, but there's an issue with sparkies that hasn't been addressed. One club in the Twin Cities implemented a sparky ban due to the soil at the sod farm they formerly launched at. The soil was largely peat, which is combustible. The worry was that a spark could fall in the grass, burrow its way into the peat, smolder for a while, and then flare up into something like a coal mine fire.
 
Bottom line

Everything one does has a risk with a potential negative consequence, even something so basic as taking a breath or sleeping.
The consequence could be anything from embarrassment to death...

The probability that the risk will occur ranges from EXTREMELY remote to a virtual certainty.
Yet even the extremely remote event WILL eventually happen with a large enough sample. An event may only be a "one in a million", but if there are a billion events then some are going to hit that 1 in a million.

Most activities that have a minimal negative consequence and are extremely remote to happen the majority of people don't even think about.
An activity that could result in death with a virtual certainty most people will avoid.

In between, it is anyone's guess.

Different people also have different tolerances for the risk/probability curve.
Some like to "push the limit"
Others are very conservative and don't like to "take risk".

So - can/will sparkies cause a fire - yes
Can/will standard motors cause a fire - yes
(And can/will fires start without anything rocketry occurring - yes)

No matter what, after enough rocket flights, somewhere, somehow there will be a fire.
Do we have sufficient statistics to show whether a standard motor has a higher or lower risk than a sparky? I don't know.
If the rate for a standard motor is lower, but we fly more of them, will we start the same number of fires? Again, I don't have the data to answer.

Can we do things to minimize the risk - YES. Don't fly under the wrong conditions on the wrong fields with the "wrong" motor
Can we totally eliminate fires? NO - Even if we stop flying, there will be fires due to other causes

Otherwise, I don't think there is a right or wrong answer. Partly due to the different risk/probability tolerances of those involved.
We just need to do the best we can - and even that will probably be subject to interpretation...
 
Blaaa blaa sparkies bad, blaaa starts fires, blaa we are alll going to die blaa blaa! ;)


TA
 
I love watching sparkies but do not fly them. I kind of wish they had a dedicated pad or two at my launches.

Even worse, the brat kid who goes out one before me to the pads, and switches from his designated pad to mine because of the recent sparkie flight. Sure you were in line first, but still, obnoxious. I have yet to complain but will next time.
 
Now, here's a thought...

How about at each launch, there is an extra, small fee to launch sparkies. The money that is collected then goes toward buying nomex blankets to cover the ground around the launch pads. I know, expensive, but after a few years, maybe you have enough to cover the area.

Or this.

https://www.mcmaster.com/#nomex-blankets/=z2ctui

A 60 x 80" nomex blanket.
 
Fiberglass welding blankets are much cheaper than Nomex and do the job. We use several around the CMASS high power pads.

For example. https://www.harborfreight.com/8-ft-x-8-ft-fiberglass-welding-blanket-67701.html are on sale at $36. ($0.56 per square foot).

4 of these cover a 16' square area (256 sq.ft.) directly under the launch pad. Unfortunately sparkies have the potential to ignite fires over a 75' diameter circle (4400 sq.ft. which is the NFPA 1127 mandated minimum cleared area for sparky motors thru J impulse), but at least if you have the fiberglass blankets under the pad, if there is a fire, you already have your fire blankets predeployed to assist in putting out the fire.....

Bob
 
Being on the east coast, we seldom deal with very dry conditions, but the dry corn stalks or soy bean remains can get going sometime. We keep a couple of sprayers on hand with water to put out an occasional fire from sparkies. Our biggest issue is when we do get a fire, if it happens to be right where the clip wire run from the controller to the pad, we might not be able to put the fire out before those wires get damaged. Some of those blankets over the wires might be a good idea.
 
The first time I saw a sparky was in May of 2014 at my L1 launch. The rocket was a bit of a beast and I believe the flier was using a CTI M class motor. The launch site was a farm, nothing was planted or at least visible, it was essentially dry ploughed field. Incredibly some sparks found a small patch of dry vegetation quite a distance from the pad, which immediately caught on fire. A neighbour saw the fire and called it into the fire department as a plane crash. The fire department showed up, the fire was already out, but they ended up trying to stick the land owner with a considerable bill.

In the end it was simply a case of the landowner having some issues with the neighbours, the fire chief was some how involved in it and it was simply a case of small town politics and abuse of authority.

We ended up abandoning the filed as a launch site because we didn't want to compound the issues the farmer was dealing with. The point being the fire was the catalyst, albeit it was doomed eventually but the sparkles can definitely cause a fire, very easily, and surprisingly at a good distance away from the pad.

Having said that I am a big fan of sparkies, their sound is unique and they are visually pretty neat to watch. (new fav a Loki K830 Spitfire)
 
The first time I saw a sparky was in May of 2014 at my L1 launch. The rocket was a bit of a beast and I believe the flier was using a CTI M class motor. The launch site was a farm, nothing was planted or at least visible, it was essentially dry ploughed field. Incredibly some sparks found a small patch of dry vegetation quite a distance from the pad, which immediately caught on fire. A neighbour saw the fire and called it into the fire department as a plane crash. The fire department showed up, the fire was already out, but they ended up trying to stick the land owner with a considerable bill.

In the end it was simply a case of the landowner having some issues with the neighbours, the fire chief was some how involved in it and it was simply a case of small town politics and abuse of authority.

We ended up abandoning the filed as a launch site because we didn't want to compound the issues the farmer was dealing with. The point being the fire was the catalyst, albeit it was doomed eventually but the sparkles can definitely cause a fire, very easily, and surprisingly at a good distance away from the pad.

Having said that I am a big fan of sparkies, their sound is unique and they are visually pretty neat to watch. (new fav a Loki K830 Spitfire)

We had the same thing happen in Orangeburg but they saw the parachute and thought the pilot bailed.

They did not charge us to spray down the field.
 
No offense taken. It was so funny at the time. I still laugh.

I always thought a fire would en the end of our field.
 
Being on the east coast, we seldom deal with very dry conditions, but the dry corn stalks or soy bean remains can get going sometime. We keep a couple of sprayers on hand with water to put out an occasional fire from sparkies. Our biggest issue is when we do get a fire, if it happens to be right where the clip wire run from the controller to the pad, we might not be able to put the fire out before those wires get damaged. Some of those blankets over the wires might be a good idea.
That's what we do. All the wiring, relay box, and pad battery are covered by the blankets so they won't be damaged by sparks from regular motors. We don't allow sparkies at our home field, but quite a few non-sparky motors spit out hot particles that can burn equipment and the occasional cato will shoot out flaming propellant.....

We've done demonstration high power launches at Stanford Airport, ME during the Tower Hobbies RC aircraft weekends and the sponsors wanted sparkies, so they got them. The airport FD was on the ready as they don't have many opportunities to put fires out. On Saturday someone forgot to put out the fiberglass blankets so the Airport FD enjoyed putting out the grass fire. On Sunday I set the pads up with the fiberglass blankets. The FG blankets protected the launch equipment but a small fire started just outside the blankets. I ran up to the pad, pulled out of the blankets and threw it over the fire (about 3' diameter) and then walked over the blanket for a couple minutes. Fire out, and after lifting off the blanket and scuffing the ground to insure it was all out, you couldn't see the burn.....and the FD was disappointed....

Bob
 
Despite having the launch pad located on a wide paved taxiway at the Hearne, TX airport, a large sparky started a fairly impressive grass fire a good ways away from the pad, in the grass next to the taxiway. I was there at this Tripoli Houston launch in Hearne in mid July and watched it first hand and helped out out the fire.

The crew and the attendees had it out in fairly short order using water, extinguishers and those big fly swatter looking devices.

Other large non sparky motors launched from the same pad did not have the ability to reach over that distance to the grass and start a fire.

Let's face it. Those sparks of burning metal have a persistence and reach that the sparks and fire from other "normal" motors simply do not have.
 
Let's face it. Those sparks of burning metal have a persistence and reach that the sparks and fire from other "normal" motors simply do not have.


Do you have any studies to back that up?
I've wondered as I read the rant thread, if people aren't so hyperaware of sparkeys that they are treated differently - and because of this treatment, there are fewer sparkey fires then anything else.
 
Do you have any studies to back that up?

I've gone to a regional launch in the dry scrub of Eastern Washington for three years since becoming a BAR. Rockets launch from a dirt oval track, LPR near the front of the flight line, MPR and HPR on the other side of the track. Sparkies are limited to a single launch rail in the HPR section. We are fortunate that the CAP provides our main fire crews. I've seen lots of small grass/scrub fires from sparkies, all put out in short order and with minimal damage (less than a square foot or so). I don't think I've seen a single fire from a properly-functioning "standard" motor, BP or APCP. There were one or two from rockets that lost the forward closure and flew a short distance with fire from both ends.

~200 rockets launch over the 3-day weekend, with 4-5 sparky fires (every second or third flight) and one or two APCP fires from CATOs. It's not scientific, but I think it's foolish to say that they don't have a higher fire risk over a broader area. Whether that risk is acceptable is up to the launch director, RSO, and landowner. That club doesn't allow sparkies for the night flight due to high risk of injury from fighting a fire in the dark.
 
It's not scientific, but I think it's foolish to say that they don't have a higher fire risk over a broader area.

I would agree, strictly from my own empirical evidence...if it looks like a duck, walks like a duck and quacks like a duck then it's likely a duck and to suggest otherwise is nonsensical.
 
I have to agree. I see several causes.

1. Spit igniters
2. CATOs of any motor
3. Spit grains
4. Charges going off on the ground
5. Sparky motors

Number 5 on our field is more common. I do not have scientific evidence but we had 6 fires in 1 year. Four the six fires were sparky motor flights. That is 66% the fires. I ran the stats and we only have 4% of flights on sparky motors. That is pretty clear evidence for a single field.

I advocate for our fliers to be able to fly sparkies, but it getting harder to do. Heck, I fly them.
 
I advocate for our fliers to be able to fly sparkies, but it getting harder to do.

Maybe anyone who wants to fly a sparky needs to volunteer for a shift holding a fire swatter. I don't want to step on the launch director's toes, but it seems fair to make people who want to do stuff that makes more work do more of the volunteering to support it.
 
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