Ares I-X

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Luke you've forgotten the best part of the Ares rant. The Orion's ultimate destination is Mars. As designed it ain't getting there. Let alone, we have little if any ideas how to mitigate the Martian Dust environment to keep the hab's sealed. A friend of mine interned at Glenn and told me about some of the research she did there on it.

Also 1-X rolled out on Tuesday, I heard from a friend who was at KSC, that the USA engineers couldn't convince themselves until Friday that it wouldn't fall off the MLP, think about how bad that would have been.

Luke you hit the nail on the head when you said Griffin, he did a lot of good things for the agency, but the Constellation architecture was his idea and his baby. He wrote a white paper that detailed a very similar system not long before becoming the administrator. I laugh when I hear Constellation and Shuttle derived in the same sentence.
 
Wow ... lots of interesting stuff here, though I'm not sure I understand all the arguments. Certainly, I agree with the sentiment we should have maintained our SV capability, refined and built upon it, and produced a cost-efficient heavy lifter for long-term access to space. Problem is, SV was expensive and for that reason, simply not sustainable in the long-term. Saturn is generally advertised to have cost something on the order of $45B in current-year dollars. We flew it 13 times, which works out to about $3.5B per flight. If you do the same math with Shuttle (program cost over number of missions) it works out about $1B per flight. Reusability and a scaled-back workforce as compared to Saturn made it better but still expensive, and the Shuttle's mass-to-orbit is not even close to that of the SV. Shuttle has other issues too, chiefest among which is the lack of crew escape on ascent. Which leads you back to the Holy Grail: the need for cheap, sustainable, safe access to space.

NASA's approach is Ares I/Ares V and Constellation, bashed here as the "same mistakes all over again." And that's the part I don't get ... if we had stayed with Saturn and evolved it as suggested with reliability and sustainability as our primary goals we would have likely ended up with a structure derived from Saturn (as was the Shuttle ET and Ares V), advanced first-stage engines (the F1 would have probably been dumped in favor of a cheaper, more reliable design ... something on the order of the RS-68 maybe?), evolved second-stage engines (the J2X, for example) -- in short, something very similar to Ares V. So the argument "NASA should have gone down that path" seems to contradict the one that says "NASA should not be going down that path." Ares I -- the launcher intended to haul Orion -- is Shuttle / Saturn derived too, by the way.

Can it be done with one of today's expendables? Sure. You can engineer about anything if you want to spend the time and money doing it, though I'd argue that when you finished you'd have an upgraded expendable and would want to roll the dash-number and call it an Atlas VI or Delta V or some such. (Interesting observation there, FWIW ... the Ares V RS-68 was developed for the Delta, so one could argue a key element of Ares is built on an existing expendable). Would you have to evolve it ... couldn't you just stick Orion on an expendable and fly? Not without re-designing it for reduced capability and accepting a significant reduction in overall reliability (i.e., more risk) -- the latter is what "man-rating" is all about and it involves questions of redundancy, safety factors, and a host of other things rarely mentioned in argruments like this but important if you want a launcher at least as reliable as Shuttle.

Shuttle, by the way, is the best we can do with a reliability of about 0.98 demonstrated over a couple hundred flights. Soyuz is at about 0.97 over several hundred flights and it's capability doesn't come close to that of Shuttle.

Couldn't you design a dumb booster around Russian engines and use propellants other than LOX / LH2? Yes, you could, though I'm not sure why you'd want to do that. The RS-68 works just fine and the infrastructure for handling LH2 is already in place. RP-1 is probably cheaper in the long-term, but you'd have to trade that against the performance reduction you'd take and the impact that would have on other aspects of the design including things like reliability, manufacturability, and so forth. That may all work out in the Russians' favor, but personally I'd be willing to spend a little more here to see US dollars channelled to US companies to ensure US capability to design and build space hardware does not erode. That's not a dig against foreign cooperation ... just an interest in keeping US technology healthy for the long haul.

Comments on Russian capability are interesting. I have met, and worked with, Russian engineers and they are very good at what they do. Don't lose sight of US accomplishments while praising KURS and the venerable Soyuz though ... seven manned lunar missions, multiple successful robotic missions to Mars, including two Viking landers and three rovers (two of which are still working, against all odds), an operating Mars orbiter, the Hubble Space Telescope, Shuttle, Station, etc. all say something about our own ability to do what we set out to do .... when we choose to stay the course, that is. I share the frustration voiced over false-starts and program cancellations, but would respectfully suggest those say more about national political will than engineering expertise.

If the arguments just come down to "NASA is staffed with bureaucrats and therefore stupid so anything anyone outside NASA suggests must be better" then I respectfully, emphatically disagree. And we'll leave it at that.

Anyway ... good stuff. Keep reading. :)
 
Luke what is FUD?
Thanks
fred

Fear, Uncertainty, and Doubt... stuff like " 'Direct' violates the laws of physics" when the numbers all work out and have been verified by several independent sources, and stuff like NASA saying "the EELV's cannot be used for Orion-- they have blackzones that would preclude an abort by the LAS, have lofted trajectories unsuited to manned vehicles, and would REQUIRE a new upperstage to lift Orion, and would cost 12 billion dollars to manrate", which is an absolute lie, as the EELV folks showed NASA was using "old data" on the blackzones and lofted trajectory stuff which are typically used on UNMANNED LAUNCHES, where they had already 'corrected' the data for use as a MANNED launcher-- the trajectory was flatter (lower G loads on ascent, lower Max Q) and closed all the 'blackzones' so the LAS could perform abort from liftoff to disposal of the LAS after second stage ignition (the way Apollo did it) So NASA just put their thumb on the scales and arbitrarily 'required' EELV's to carry the LAS ALL THE WAY TO ORBIT, which NO booster has EVER done, (because it's horrifically costful to the booster's performance to do so, and it's TOTALLY unnecessary, as the SM can perform aborts once the velocity is high enough and you're above the atmosphere, IE after second stage ignition) to "prove" that EELV's couldn't lift Orion. Of course if they applied that standard to the Ares I, there is absolutely NO WAY that it could EVER get Orion to orbit either... Stuff like saying "Direct 1.0 could NEVER work" because it used a "vaporware" engine that didn't, doesn't, and couldn't exist (the RS-68 "regeneratively cooled") when two years later the thermal environments studies on Ares V prove that regular ablatively cooled RS-68's will melt in the base heating environment under Ares V, with six or seven RS-68's and two 5.5 segment SRB's firing all side by side, they switch to what?? RS-68 REGEN's-- the same 'vaporware' engine that couldn't exist for Direct... good old double standards...

I agree Fred that turning down any international help in Constellation is just stupid. NASA got burned on ISS because Russia was SO behind schedule, so broke, and so hard to deal with, and I can see where they might decide NOT to put anything 'international' on the critical path to success, but they COULD farm out stuff like the lunar lander or habs or something to Europe, Canada, or the Russians, and if it doesn't work out, well, we can always build our own later on... so technically speaking it wouldn't be on the critical path...

Like I said, NASA management has deliberately chosen the most difficult, most expensive, most inefficient, and poorest thought out way to try to do this, and now wonder why it's falling in around their ears and they don't have enough money to pay for it...

OL JR :)
 
Luke you've forgotten the best part of the Ares rant. The Orion's ultimate destination is Mars. As designed it ain't getting there. Let alone, we have little if any ideas how to mitigate the Martian Dust environment to keep the hab's sealed. A friend of mine interned at Glenn and told me about some of the research she did there on it.

Also 1-X rolled out on Tuesday, I heard from a friend who was at KSC, that the USA engineers couldn't convince themselves until Friday that it wouldn't fall off the MLP, think about how bad that would have been.

Luke you hit the nail on the head when you said Griffin, he did a lot of good things for the agency, but the Constellation architecture was his idea and his baby. He wrote a white paper that detailed a very similar system not long before becoming the administrator. I laugh when I hear Constellation and Shuttle derived in the same sentence.

Thanks mjennings...

What I find absolutely unacceptable is, that the former NASA management not only did their best to stifle ANY dissent, refused to consider alternatives based on their merit and factual data, but they ACTIVELY DENIED accurate data and concerns FROM THEIR OWN PROGRAM ENGINEERS who told them there were SERIOUS problems and concerns for the safety and affordability and performance of the Ares rockets from the get-go, and they also ACTIVELY SPREAD MISLEADING OR DOWNRIGHT FALSE INFORMATION to discredit any alternatives! Engineers who told management that the single SRB first stage would cause intense vibration loads to be transmitted into the interstage, second stage, and capsule, were silenced, until it couldn't be ignored anymore. Even now there are only 'vague' ideas of how to handle the problem within mass constraints and reduce the vibrations to tolerable levels. The Air Force has shown that basically the crew cannot abort off the rocket during the first stage burn, because an exploding SRB (or one detonated by range safety to prevent them from crashing into Florida towns, like Challenger) would put the Orion in the middle of a 4,000 degree fireball of burning APCP chunks which would melt it's chutes and kill the crew. NASA deliberately ignored this information a couple years ago and poo-poo it now, while 'looking into it' behind the scenes.

Then there's all the disinformation they spread about EELV's and Direct Jupiter rockets, that they couldn't be made to do the job, etc. I've been reading www.nasaspaceflight.com/forums for the last two and half years, basically since Ares, Orion, and Altair got their names from CLV, CaLV, CEV, and LSAM, and I've learned a lot, and watched it unfold AS IT HAPPENED... Lies about safety numbers, lies about capabilities, lies about costs, lies about schedules... You can't base a successful program on LIES!

If you have a preferred solution, if you believe it's right and good and works, then you should be able to refute or deflect criticism with ACCURATE FACTUAL INFORMATION, ie THE TRUTH not conduct some 'smear campaign' from behind the scenes using deliberately out-of-date information, deliberately skewed data that places a 'thumb on the scales', misrepresented data, and inaccurate and deliberately uneven and unfair comparisons (comparing apples to oranges) like the whole "EELV MUST carry the LAS to orbit" thing while figuring Ares I performance dropping the LAS mass at staging...

It's like nobody learned ANYTHING from Challenger or Columbia... where there was DIRECT EVIDENCE BEFOREHAND that there were problems that SHOULD BE ADDRESSED, but the choice was made to deliberately overlook it, sweep it under the rug, and hope nothing happened-- to gamble with people's lives, and they LOST!

Feynman said it best when he was on the Challenger disaster review board-- "mother nature cannot be fooled", yet despite mounting evidence from inside and outside the program that there are SERIOUS PROBLEMS to the workability, affordability, and safety of the system, they are being DELIBERATELY OVERLOOKED and ACTIVELY SUPPRESSED to minimize the political repercussions... again, they're gambling with people's lives (future astronauts) and sooner or later they'll LOSE AGAIN...

When John Houbolt wrote the NASA administrator during the early days of Apollo suggesting that NASA adopt the "lunar orbit rendezvous" technique for lunar missions instead of direct ascent from the lunar surface, saying, "do we want to go to the moon or not?" after he'd been shouted down and ignored by his colleagues as promoting an 'unworkable solution', he FINALLY got a fair hearing, presented his evidence (and the evidence that direct ascent would require the gigantic NOVA rocket that would be IMPOSSIBLE to develop within the ten-year window to get to the moon set by Kennedy) and proved that it WAS possible to perform the entire mission with a single Saturn V instead, Dr. Von Braun, who was a critic of Houbolt and the LOR mission mode, didn't conduct a secret smear campaign and come up with a bunch of slanted, concocted, inaccurate, and misrepresented data FUD campaign to denigrate Houbolt so that he could build the largest rocket ever conceived (NOVA) but instead, he looked at the data, carefully considered the argument objectively, weighed the tradeoffs and costs, and shocked and amazed everyone at Marshall Space Flight Center by switching sides and agreeing with Houbolt that not only was LOR workable, it was THE ONLY WAY that the moon landing could realistically be achieved in the time and budgets alloted for the task.

What a shame we've slipped SO FAR that now technical arguments cannot any longer be discussed on their merits or bearing upon reality, but on where they fit in the pre-established chosen paradigm and the political expediency...

Honestly it reminds me of Hitler's madness at Wolfeschanze and in the Bunker-- while Soviet armies were exploding shells over his head, he ordered imaginary armies to throw back the Allied tides; armies that existed only in his feverish imagination and were rag-tag remnants of old men and young boys hopelessly outnumbered, outclassed, and outgunned, at the ends of their ropes. He ignored all his experts and generals as well...

We all know how THAT turned out! We would do well not to make the same sort of stupid mistakes... OL JR :)
 
Good points wilson...

I want to make it clear that I don't disrespect the engineers that have been handed this mess of lemons and are doing their best to make lemonade, and make ten pounds of crap fit in a five pound bag... I fault the administrators that intentionally overlook data that conflicts with the established plan, overlooks alternatives, and then deliberately plows ahead and steamrolls opposition and dissent because it's politically inexpedient...

The whole Russian tech/American tech thing isn't so much about the technology, it's about the IDEOLOGY... The Russians have adopted a gradual upgrade to existing capabilities type of path, versus the American "let's toss everything ever couple decades and build something totally new" path. That difference of ideologies is in no small part responsible for the quandary we find ourselves in. Through shortsightedness, no substantial meaningful work was done on a shuttle replacement, and now we find we need a shuttle replacement and face a decade without one required to develop one. This, to me, is 'fixing the barn door after the horses are gone', a concept I'm well aware of here on the farm... :) Should be kinda obvious to the geniuses that are in charge of operating the nation's space program, even if it isn't to the dolts in DC...

The Saturn V was SO expensive because it's DDT&E weren't spread out over a long enough program lifetime, enough missions, and such a poor use was made of it...

Imagine you decide to build a new electric car and sell it to the public... You pay a team of engineers for years doing the development work to flesh out your concept, build a factory, spend millions on tooling up and making assembly jigs, equipment, etc., hiring and training workers, learning how to integrate everything into a functional system of taking raw materials and building the car's components and assembling them with the tooling and personnel you have in your factory, and then only build a few dozen cars before you shut down, fire everybody, and demolish the factory, scrap the tooling and equipment, and figure up the bill... You haven't produced enough vehicles or had enough of a 'lifetime' to your program to make efficient use of the resources poured into it... you've produced a handful of cars, and scrapped a lot of practically new machinery and tooling to produce it, and demolished a practically new building, in addition to all the millions you've paid your engineers and workers to develop the product and the skills necessary to produce it, and you've just tossed it all overboard... Had Saturn V continued, and had a fraction of the investment made on shuttle been expended to upgrade/reduce costs for Saturn, we'd have been better off... by the time that additional investment was amortized out over all the additional flights made with that system, and the scientific and mission results of those additional missions been factored in, it would have been cheaper than shuttle, no question. We'd have a whole fleet of space stations and other space goodies up there right now, and this whole argument would be moot...

Ares I and V are NO LONGER efficiently shuttle derived designs... AS ORIGINALLY CONCEIVED they were pretty efficient and sensible shuttle derived designs, but reality caught up and the whole thing unravelled and has morphed into a Frankenstein that LOOKS shuttle derived but really isn't, in a meaningful way... Ares I was originally conceived to be a four segment slightly modified shuttle SRB topped by a LOX/LH2 upperstage powered by an airstarted SSME engine of about 500,000 pounds thrust. The existing shuttle SSME's are ground started, using TONS of heavy GSE that could not be put on an upper stage. It would require a virtual complete redesign of SSME, effectively creating a whole new engine for all intents and purposes. SO, NASA switched to J-2S because they had already 'done a bunch of work' on it years ago, and had used parts of it on X-33 (turbopumps) which gave them a head-start. J-2S wasn't powerful enough, so they 'upgraded it' to J-2X, which has about 290,000 pounds of thrust, and significantly lower ISP, meaning it needs more fuel to do the same job as SSME would. More fuel, more weight, bigger upperstage required. Bigger stage and lower thrust= higher gravity losses, which is reduced efficiency (less lifting capacity). It also means you need more work from the first stage, so the four segment shuttle booster first stage morphs into the five segment, another multibillion dollar development. The first stage should really have a longer burn duration, but cannot without increasing the diameter-- increasing length raises the thrust, but not the duration. Increasing the diameter would mean all new casings instead of reusing shuttle SRB cases, and would make transport by rail from Utah impossible. The weight/underpower problem is SO problematic that there is discussion of making the first stage expendable-- let the SRB sink and replace it. Deleting the recovery chutes/equipment would save a LOT of weight, but tossing the SRB cases would require a new factory to make more. Perhaps even switching to spiral filament wound composite casings (like ICBM's) would save a TON of weight over the steel cases, but would require a complete SRB redesign and requalification program; more BILLIONS, no can do, and not recovering them for inspection would make the Ares I's safety numbers actually lower than a lot of the alternatives. The vibration issue means MORE weight is going to have to be added with equipment to mitigate the vibrations from the SRB first stage, and weight becomes SO critical that Orion is stripped of heavy land landing airbags, most of it's safety critical redundancy, and finally downgraded from six persons to only four! It's service module is downsized as much as possible (that's just good design, but illustrates the problem) and performance is SO critically short that even the air drag of the Apollo-style conical boost protective structure comes into play, and is replaced by a rounded ogive 'Kaiser helmet' toilet plunger style BPC , since the Von Karmen shape lowers drag early in the flight and increases performance slightly (again, good design ideas but illustrates how this design has NO MARGINS and insufficient performance).

More to come...
 
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Cont'd...

Ares V started off as essentially a Shuttle external tank with five SSME's on the bottom flanked by two four-segment SRB's, fitted with a new upperstage powered by 1 SSME airstart engine. As the preliminary design work continues, and SSME airstart is dropped from Ares I, (2) J2-S engines are adopted for Ares V upperstage as well. It is decided that TWO upperstage engines are undesirable, so it drops to ONE J-2X upperstage engine, which means the lower stage must be more powerful, because the J-2X has less thrust than the SSME (2 J-2S's were about as powerful as an SSME, a little higher thrust even, but lower ISP, which means more fuel required; larger upperstage tanking) and suffers higher gravity losses and lower ISP, meaning a larger upperstage for more fuel is required. Ares I underperfomance means that more of the mission weight is thrown onto Ares V, meaning it has to get larger still. The decision is made to switch from SSME's on the Ares V first stage to RS-68 (which was originally conceived of for the National Launch System shuttle derived vehicle contemplated after Challenger, which was a shuttle-replacement vehicle, later contemplated as a heavy-lifter operating in tandem with shuttle, but not funded. RS-68 was to be a 'cheap throwaway' more powerful derivative of SSME, and was later adopted by Delta IV as a cheap engine) which has a poorer ISP and requires more fuel, which means larger tanks. The decision is made to switch from Shuttle ET diameter of 27.5 feet to the Saturn V's 33 foot diameter tankage, which means ALL NEW TOOLING MUST BE BUILT at Michoud to construct the tanks. More billions of bucks in factory mods! This increases tank capacity, but the heavier tanks are now too heavy, even with the higher thrust of RS-68, so now we need larger SRB's to get off the ground. The switch is made to five-segment SRB's for Ares V. More performance is needed from Ares V, so Ares V increases from 5 RS-68 engines to 6, which requires larger fuel tanks. So the 33 foot core is stretched to carry more fuel. This adds weight, so now the SRB's are stretched to 5.5 segments, eliminating commonality with Ares I and requiring yet MORE development expense on the 5.5 segment boosters. The engineers start modelling the heat plumes at the base of the Ares V, and find that the ablatively cooled RS-68 engines will fail from the heat thew throw on each other, the massive plume recirculation under the tank, and the heat from the SRB plumes, so a switch will be required to a regeneratively cooled RS-68, which means a whole new development program to develop the regeneratively cooled nozzle, which means changes to the turbopumps, injectors, etc. Essentially this is a whole new engine development program that will cost BILLIONS. In the meantime, the supersizing of Ares V means that it will require all new 6-truck crawlers, since even the 5 segment SRB's were maxing out the crawlers, and the 5.5 segment boosters are SO heavy that the pads will need extensive rework, the crawlerways will require total refurbishment and strengthening to keep the whole thing from sinking in the Florida swamps, and the stack and launcher is SO heavy that it's hitting up against the VAB foundation strength limits, and it's SO huge it can't hardly fit through the VAB doors! There was even talk of switching to an 11 meter core, but that would be SO huge that it would require 7 RS-68 engines, possibly 6 segment SRB's, which would DEFINITELY not fit through the VAB doors (they talked of turning it 45 degrees at an angle so it could fit through the doors 'sideways') and would DEFINITELY be too heavy for the pads, the flame trenches, not to mention the crawlers and crawlerways. Even with all this supersizing and growth, which is pretty much maxed out, Ares V is STILL THIRTEEN TONS BELOW it's performance requirements set for it for the lunar mission! It will require the replacement or expensive beefing up and refurbishment of virtually ALL the exisiting infrastructure, complete retooling (the 11 meter core would require new factories at Michoud to build it-- it couldn't fit under the roof!) and it's commonality with Ares I is very low, and with shuttle it's virtually non-existant! This "1.5 launch" Ares I/Ares V method (actually it's 2x2-- two launches of two different vehicles for EVERY mission) means that TWO teams will be required to work on TWO different rockets, with TWO different assembly lines building the TWO different rockets, with TWO sets of LUT's, TWO sets of infrastructure for handling and moving and integrating the rockets, and TWO expensive development programs for the TWO different rockets, which essentially DOUBLES the cost of the program!

In the meantime, some engineers inside NASA questioned this insanity, dusted off the old "National Launch System" (NLS) plans from the mid-80's, and resurrected it in their spare time. It emerged as the "Direct" proposal, which would re-use the existing shuttle hardware and infrastructure as much as possible, with as little change as possible, and still do the job required. (A job Ares I/V cannot even do themselves currently, BTW) It has gone through several changes and evolved, but it's current form (Jupiter 246) would basically use a modified Shuttle External Tank with four shuttle SSME's engines underneath, flanked by a pair of standard four-segment shuttle SRB's (though five segment Ares' project SRB's COULD be used, since substantial development money has already been spent on them, and they DO increase performance) topped by a new upperstage powered by either the single J-2X OR using 6 off-the-shelf RL-10 engines. This rocket would require NO ESPENSIVE engine development programs AT ALL, although it COULD use the five segment SRB from Ares and/or the J-2X, since considerable money has been invested, and it might be better to see them finished, depending on costs involved. The first stage could be used WITHOUT AN UPPERSTAGE to orbit not only the Orion, but 25 TONS of additional cargo, IF DESIRED, using only the 2 existing shuttle SRB's and a Jupiter core stage with one SSME removed, to make it a Jupiter 130 rocket. The numbers have even been worked where a Jupiter 130 and a Jupiter 246 could conceivably perform the lunar mission, saving the cost of the second upperstage and the fourth SSME on the 130. This would replace the "1.5 launch" (which is actually 2x2-- two launches of two different rockets) Ares paradigm with a "2 launch" Jupiter paradigm (2x1, or two launches of essentially the same vehicle). Jupiter would require only ONE first stage design (the fourth engine is just left off and the plumbing 'capped' for 130 flights) and ONE single upperstage design (not TWO like Ares-- one upperstage for Ares I and a totally different one for Ares V) and NO EXTREMELY EXPENSIVE AND TIME CONSUMING ENGINE DEVELOPMENT PROGRAMS AT ALL, unless it was desirable to finish J-2X, and if some money wanted to be budgeted to developing an expendable SSME variant, which Pratt&Whitney/Rocketdyne has already done considerable work on when the cargo variant "Shuttle C" was being considered back in the 80's as a cargo adjunct/replacement for shuttle.

THIS would be a FAR more affordable and sensible use of our existing infrastructure and resources than Ares' wasteful scrapping and retooling of everything we have to attempt to make it work... OL JR :)
 
Retiring the Shuttle now seems like throwing the baby out with the bath water. I believe the shuttle disasters were both due to bad management decisions that caused the technology to fail. There was intense pressure to launch the challenger after numerous delays. I recall only two days before the launch seeing Reagan on the news urging on the launch. The engineers told their bosses it was too cold to fire the boosters after evidence of seal failure of the SRB segments in a previous cold weather launch. They refused to listen and seven people died. If there had been real accountability someone should have gone to jail. As a result the seals were improved and the SRB's are a reliable booster.
The ice-saturated chunk of insulation that brought down Columbia is another problem that was ignored until disaster struck likely due to refusing to revisit the idiotic decision to stop painting the ET. If the foam insulation was sealed by caulking and paint, moisture wouldn't accumulate in the foam and it wouldn't fall off knocking holes in the orbiter.:bangpan: Officials were told that Columbia might have sustained damage at launch but chose to ignore the possibility because they couldn't think of a solution to it. Another seven people needlessly died and nobody went to jail. Now, rather than solve the insulation problem it's been decided to cancel the whole thing throwing thousands of trained people out of work at a time of financial crisis and ignoring most of what has been learned about spaceplanes.
If cheap access to orbit is the only concern then the private sector should be the ones to provide it. Let the shuttle be used for it's primary purpose, bringing cargo to LEO(fuel,space tug components,etc.) and develop a true interplanetary spacecraft. Ted
 
Good grief, JR, where do you get this stuff? You've got an interesting mix of fact and fiction there, coupled with lots of speculation. :)

Orion and Ares I are in development and moving along with Ares V right behind. Real hardware is being fabricated and tested. Those designs are not static, they are changing. And they will continue to change as they are evaluated and technical issues are resolved. That's the nature of engineering development, not evidence of NASA mis-management or some grand scheme to sandbag competition.

You could change the architecture, start all over, and make an EELV or Shuttle-derived vehicle of some kind fly. Certainly. And guess what? That design would change and evolve in exactly the same way the Cx designs are evolving. Technical problems would pop up and changes would be required to resolve them. Again, that's how engineering development works.

No surprise in any of this ... it's the nature of the beast. What's important is that we hold the course and get to the end game. I'm not sure I see any advantange at all in dumping the investment made to get this far.
 
, moisture wouldn't accumulate in the foam and it wouldn't fall off knocking holes in the orbiter.:
Ted

I'd agree with you Ted, but for two points...

IF shuttle was automated and flown unmanned like Buran was 25 YEARS AGO so that no lives would be put at risk for cargo flights, then I could see it continuing as a cargo hauler, especially for the downmass capabilities. Challenger was TOTALLY avoidable and the O-ring problem was well documented on a NUMBER of flights before Challenger's loss; the most severe O-ring failure was on the previous coldest mission ever flown before Challenger, launched at a temperature of 53 degrees IIRC, which was nearly 10 degrees colder than the 'recommended temperatures' in the flight constraints. The launch of Challenger when it was STILL below freezing after a long cold-soak during the night when the booster temperatures were subjected to 20 degree+ weather overnight was reckless and irresponsible.
There was also an issue of a change of the putty used to seal the faces of the booster segments near the joints-- the putty used since the shuttle started flying had asbestos fibers in it, which were outlawed by the EPA and OSHA, and the 'reformulated' putty did not seal as well.

The problems with the foam were also well known before Columbia was lost. Several missions came back with damaged tiles, tiles knocked off, even a hole burned through the aluminum skin of the wing/belly of the shuttle from a foam strike tearing up the tiles. The tiles on the shuttle are amazingly fragile... they're about the same consistency as that freeze-dried "astronaut ice-cream" you can buy at Hobby Lobby and the space center gift shops... it's actually about as soft as styrofoam... I've held a shuttle tile and it's easily dented with your finger, scratched, or crushed. They're SO fragile that if the shuttle launched or landed in a rainstorm, the raindrops would beat the tiles all to pieces like bullets through tissue paper! From what I understand, the problem with the foam is also partially due to a reformulation change in the foam spraying carrier solvent process, which has led to some bonding issues and voids in the foam which can cause problems. I have't read anything about foam problems being caused by trapped moisture due to the foam not being painted. When exposed to the incredibly cold temperatures of the liquid hydrogen inside the tank, the air bubbles inside the foam get colder and colder until the air inside the bubbles actually liquifies, since nitrogen and oxygen liquefy at MUCH higher temperatures than hydrogen! So long as the bubbles are small, it's not much of a problem, because the foam just 'shrinks' a little bit from the volume reduction of the liquified air, which allows the surrounding atmosphere outside the tank to crush the foam down a tiny bit. If the voids are large, however, the volume reduction is substantial, and the liquified air can form a large heavy "drop" inside the foam bubble, and the foam is crushed more by the atmosphere surrounding the tank. At liftoff, the foam begins to heat as the hydrogen is pumped out of the tank, and the atmospheric drag begins to heat the foam up. The foam is also exposed to the shock waves and forces of the slipstream surrounding the tank as it rips through the atmosphere, trying to rip the foam off the tank. The heating can revaporize the liquid air in the foam, which rapidly expands and pushes the foam back out, and if there is a void, it can cause the foam to tear or break away from the tank wall (if there's a bonding issue) and the foam can be ripped away by the force of the slipstream. There has been a substantial effort to mitigate the foam shedding, with incomplete success. Due to the fragile nature of the orbiter's TPS system, this will remain an issue. Even if the foam problem was solved, a bird strike could do at least the same amount of damage if it were in the worst possible spot. Hence, shuttle's safety is compromised and there is very little that can reasonably be done to correct the issue, there is no abort capability until after the SRB's are jettisoned, and the options are limited afterwards. We can and should develop a safer crew vehicle.

Shuttle is also not a particularly great cargo carrier.... it is capable of lifting 25-30 tons to orbit, but the orbiter itself weighs 99 tons, which comes back. An expendable system using the shuttle's parts could be made that would be capable of orbiting about 100 tons. The orbiter is actually the world's heaviest reusable payload fairing when you really look at it. Reusability is a myth, according to Shuttle manager Steve Shannon, as it's been proven that cost-wise, reusability is a wash with expendables. The downmass issue is more a straw-man than anything, because that downmass has never really had much use, especially in the wake of Challenger when the 'satellite recovery, return, and servicing' paradigm went away. IF there were operational orbital industries making computer chips or medications or something, then there WOULD be a call for the downmass, but basically the downmass goes unused most of the time. If NASA were worried about downmass they'd develop a system with that capability. We MAY need it at some point, but not now or in the foreseeable future.

It's a shame that the Orbital Space Plane (OSP) program went away. That was a Dyna-Soar like small reusable space plane mainly for ferrying astronauts to and from orbit, using an expendable EELV booster for liftoff. That would be an excellent 'next step' beyond the shuttle to keep learning about spaceplanes and making developments for a possible future 'shuttle II" at some point in the future, if it were needed and cost-effective. Costwise, the beancounters say it's just as cheap to do expendable capsules as spaceplanes... I guess we'll find out, if we ever get anything actually flying beyond shuttle.

One other point about shuttle-- most of it's systems are state of the art-- for the mid 1970's!!! It's electronics are SO antiquated that most of the flight hardware was being manufactured on dedicated lines whose usefulness for anything else was obsolete and superseded a LONG time ago. Most of the shuttle components at this point are 'one-off's' and with the cancellation of shuttle, sufficient spares and parts were ordered several years ago and the contracts terminated after delivery. When they were talking about a shuttle extension, it was determined that it would be very difficult and expensive to do, because there would be insufficient parts and spares, and since the contracts were terminated a lot of the manufacturing capabilities to produce more have since been scrapped or gone out of business, so it is impossible to obtain more. Developing 'modern' replacements would be EXTREMELY expensive and time consuming, and would require an entire flight certification testing phase for the new part and everything it interacts with, which would be ENORMOUSLY expensive. For good or ill, the decision to scrap the shuttles has been essentially 'irreversible' for a couple years or so already. Not that if say 5 billion magically appeared that it COULDN'T be done, it surely could... it would just be enormously expensive.

We have the capability of developing better cargo rockets than shuttle, that are more reliable, robust, can carry larger payloads, with fewer launch and payload constraints than shuttle has. We already have a couple such rockets in the EELV's, Delta IV and Atlas V. We COULD develop them into a suitable heavy lift vehicle, Atlas V Phase II, but that would cut the in-house NASA people 'out of the loop' on the money, and THAT is what's unacceptable. That, plus ATK wouldn't be selling all those solid rocket boosters, and they have a POWERFUL lobby!

Anyway, shuttle's time is past, for good or ill. Shuttle was intentionally designed to be flown manned (the Russians proved an orbiter COULD be flown unmanned; Buran only flew once, unmanned, and landed safely) mostly to prevent the possibility of manned flight being cancelled back under Nixon when the likes of Walter Mondale and others who wanted to cancel manned flight altogether were making a lot of noise and gaining some traction.

We need to move forward, but making the best use of what we have-- the shuttle ET has gone through the LWT and SLWT (lightweight tank and superlightweight tank) programs and been refined, and would be an excellent tankage for a new core stage. The SRB's, after Challenger, were completely redesigned at the field joints, and have proven to be excellent and very safe boosters in the intervening years and around 100 flights. The SSME is the most powerful and efficient (ISP) hydrogen engine the US has ever fielded, perhaps in the world, and is powerful enough to make a good first stage engine under that new core. They ARE expensive to throw away, but we have 18 of them at the conclusion of the shuttle program, and PWR (Pratt, Whitney, Rocketdyne) has done SOME work and studies that show that an expendable version of SSME COULD be created, and would be no more expensive than an RS-68 Regen, when the amortized costs of the Regen's development program is included in the engine costs. RL-10 has a LONG history of safety and reliability dating back to the beginning of the space age. It's been estimated that at high enough production rates, an RL-10 could cost no more than a helicopter engine! Six RL-10's COULD be used for an EDS/second stage for such a rocket based on the shuttle stack, when coupled with the highly efficient SSME first stage engines.

There ARE easier and more sensible ways than the Ares path NASA management has chosen... OL JR :)
 
Good grief, JR, where do you get this stuff? You've got an interesting mix of fact and fiction there, coupled with lots of speculation. :)

Orion and Ares I are in development and moving along with Ares V right behind. Real hardware is being fabricated and tested. Those designs are not static, they are changing. And they will continue to change as they are evaluated and technical issues are resolved. That's the nature of engineering development, not evidence of NASA mis-management or some grand scheme to sandbag competition.

You could change the architecture, start all over, and make an EELV or Shuttle-derived vehicle of some kind fly. Certainly. And guess what? That design would change and evolve in exactly the same way the Cx designs are evolving. Technical problems would pop up and changes would be required to resolve them. Again, that's how engineering development works.

No surprise in any of this ... it's the nature of the beast. What's important is that we hold the course and get to the end game. I'm not sure I see any advantange at all in dumping the investment made to get this far.

Whatever... You're welcome to your opinion Tim and I'll stick to mine until I SEE OTHERWISE...

Yes things change, and difficulties are encountered and have to be worked around. Designs change and things pop up and get fixed. I've been following all this for well over two years now and there is a LOT more messes going on behind the scenes than anybody wants to admit. I don't believe everything I hear in press reports.

It makes NO sense to 'stay the course' if that course leads you off a budgetary cliff! Prometheus (nuclear inspace propulsion) was the first thing cancelled-- didn't last til the ink was dry on the VSE. The land landing capabilities of Orion, the moonbase, and now lunar lander development have all been canned... look it up! The program has slipped from 2012/2013 for Ares I Orion IOC to the latest estimate of 2016/2017, and it's still mostly in the DESIGN PHASE. Sure parachutes have been tested, LES motors, etc, but the whole effort is still mostly in design, ESPECIALLY Ares V. There is NO denying that TWO rockets WILL be more expensive to maintain and fly than ONE rocket flown twice.

Whatever you want to call it, go ahead. I'm not drinking the koolaid, though. If I'm SO wrong, then WHY is the whole effort in doubt and faced with either major changes or outright cancellation?? WHY was the Augustine Committee formed and charged with reevaluating the whole thing??

"There's nothing to see here-- these aren't the droids your looking for-- you can go about your business-- move along", doesn't work for me.

Have a good one and good luck to you Tim. OL JR :)

PS... The Augustine Commission says that Ares V cannot be ready before 2028... that's nearly TEN YEARS after the supposed 2019 lunar landing projection given in the VSE and the goal for Constellation. Even maintenance and upkeep costs BIG BUCKS-- who's going to pay to keep KSC and the workforce in mothballs for nearly ten years until Ares I is ready, and another ten until Ares V is ready?? I don't see it...
 
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dedleytedley
The decision to stop painting the ET reduced the weight of the shuttle stack significantly. I can't recall a value at the moment but it was a substantial weight savings.

The downmass has been quite useful on the space station. The Multi-Purpose Logistics Modules (MPLM's) and Lightweight MPESS Carriers (LMC MPESS = multi purpose equipment support structure [I think]). have allowed for several items to be returned from station to be refurbished on the ground and sent back up. Which is not as bad as having to build lots of new ones. Ammonia, O2, N2, tanks, and a variety of ORU's. I should know I worked with them.

As for shuttle retirement her time has come. Spares are dwindeling, and most are not replaceable. due to as Luke said manufactures being out of busness / some parts have not been made for a long time. Also the Composite Over wrap Pressure Vessels (COPV) are significantly more fragile than first believed. I won't even get into how anal NASA safety is about those things. COPV's are major components in the shuttle, all gaseous commodities are stored in them under the payload bay floor and lower walls. The orbiters wiring is extremely fragile and since there is probably 100 of miles of it repairs are a nightmare. I didn't get in the cockpit but I've been on the doors and in the cargo bay a few times to be very familiar with the safety precautions.

I saw an interesting version of the Shuttle C that's been cooked back up to work with the Orion / continue the station I'll have to see if I still have it.

If we can get Ares to work great, but my biggest fear with all of this is that my son will grow up in a USA with out a manned space flight program.
 
NASA engineers are good folk but they have to follow the orders of management which I believe were greatly flawed. They did a good job based on their marching orders but the real issue that has to be raised is what is the mission of NASA. Is NASA going to be in the rocket development business or the space exploration business?

NASA has always been stymied by NIH. (Not invented here.) If they can't tweak it or redesign it, they won't use it. There are plenty of existing engine designs out there, but the wheel keeps being reinvented. Sometimes it's justified but many times it's not.

For example the LOX-LH2 RS-68 is in production and used on the Delta-4, but it's not good enough for NASA so they are developing the RS-68B. Why? The RS-68 is already better than the SSME, and it's simpler, cheaper and COTS, but there are no real specs for the RS-68B!

The J-2, J2-S and J2-X is much the same. The J-2 was used on the Apollo flight, and then redesign into the J-2S which was heavier but not much better. The J2-S is a now developed improvement and the design should be frozen.

Another is the RD-180 from the Atlas-V, it's half of the also flight proven RD-171 used on the Zenit launcher. It's uses even cheaper LOX-Kerosene
propellants and both are also COTS, but no one wants to use either one of these, and they are way more efficient than a solid.

Furthermore, both existing EELV's were bypassed by NASA for Ares-1. Why? The arguement is that they were not man qualified, but neither is the Ares yet.

The Shuttle 4 segment SRM's are also COTS, but why we waste our time and money "recycling" a steel motor casing is beyond me. Steel pipe is cheap and the lift potential would be much greater if the recovery system was eliminated, not to mention the two crewed 170 foot recovery ships that are required to recover a steel pipe is absurd. These motors are loaded in Utah, shipped by railed to Louisiana, barged to the Cape, assembled, recovered, barged back to Louisiana, cleaned and rounded, shipped by rail to Utah and refilled. An enormous extra unnecessary expense. Furthermore, NASA is developing a 5-segment derivative that is of questionable perfromance improvement over the 4-segment. I wonder how it compares to a bare bones throwaway 4-segment without the burden of a recovery system and the reprocessing expenses.

In my opinion, with the limited resources NASA can expect to get, why are they spending so much money on the "bus"? Perfectly usable "bus" designs have been around for decades and the bulk of the R&D money should be spent on the manned interplanetary spacecraft payload which has never been done before.

It might have be more interesting if a "Grand Designer" had told his engineers to build the "bus" which COTS motors, and spend most of their creative takents on the payload. The Soyuz launcher has become the most often used and most reliable launch vehicle in history. The original core+four strap-on booster missile had a small third stage added to produce the Vostok launch vehicle, with a payload of 5 metric tons. Addition of a larger third stage produced the Voskhod/Soyuz vehicle, with a payload over 6 metric tons. Using this with a fourth stage, the resulting Molniya booster placed communications satellites and early lunar and planetary probes in higher energy trajectories. Over 1700 have been launched with an unmatched success rate of 97.5% for production models. Improved models providing commercial launch services for international customers entered service in the new millenium, and a new launch pad at Kourou was to be inaugurated in 2009. It appeared that the R-7 could easily still be in service 70 years after its first launch. https://astronautix.com/lvs/soyuz.htm Perhaps we need to take a lesson.

Bob
 
NASA engineers are good folk but they have to follow the orders of management which I believe were greatly flawed.

NASA has always been stymied by NIH. (Not invented here.)
For example the LOX-LH2 RS-68 is in production and used on the Delta-4, but it's not good enough for NASA so they are developing the RS-68B. Why? The RS-68 is already better than the SSME, and it's simpler, cheaper and COTS, but there are no real specs for the RS-68B!


Another is the RD-180 from the Atlas-V, it's half of the also flight proven RD-171 used on the Zenit launcher. It's uses even cheaper LOX-Kerosene
propellants and both are also COTS, but no one wants to use either one of these, and they are way more efficient than a solid.

Furthermore, both existing EELV's were bypassed by NASA for Ares-1. Why? The arguement is that they were not man qualified, but neither is the Ares yet.

In my opinion, with the limited resources NASA can expect to get, why are they spending so much money on the "bus"? Perfectly usable "bus" designs have been around for decades and the bulk of the R&D money should be spent on the manned interplanetary spacecraft payload which has never been done before.

Perhaps we need to take a lesson.

Bob


You really hit the nail on the head Bob! That's exactly the point I've been trying to make (and probably belaboring... :D)

NASA has some of the best and brightest engineers on Earth, but there is only so much you can do with a bag of lemons. Especially if management ties your hands telling you what is "acceptable" (politically) and what is not, and 'demanding' something be made to work when there are easier alternatives. The NIH syndrome is a BIG part of it, as well as the 'everybody's pet project MUST be funded' part of it. Look at the second stage (EDS) for Ares V-- NASA is baselining a TWO TANK stage-- when every high energy upperstage developed for the last 50 years in the US (to my knowledge anyway) has used a common bulkhead to eliminate the weight of the interstage and extra tank bulkhead. NASA WAS at the cutting edge of this technology, during the development of the S-IV stage for Saturn I, the S-II stage for Saturn V, and the S-IVB stages for Saturn V and Saturn IB. Centaur has used a common bulkhead pressurized-stiffened tank structure for nearly 50 years, and has been ENORMOUSLY successful. Instead of simply issuing the requirements and getting out of the way of the contractor engineers, NASA insists on designing the stages in-house, when they haven't developed a flight stage in 30 years, compared to the contractors who have been designing flying stages right up to the present day, and have TONS of advanced designs on the drawing boards, waiting for a business case (IE MONEY) to come around to actually develop and produce them. Instead, NASA reinvents the wheel and spends billions doing it... for what?? So MSFC can become some gigantic 'design center' that will end up being downsized and dismantled after the project goes into production and flight?? There isn't going to be MONEY to maintain huge design and development projects to justify a huge in-house design bureau... Whatever rocket NASA builds is going to be the one that flies for the next 30 years or so, just like shuttle.

I'd meet ya half way on the "RS-68 is better" thing... RS-68 has half again as much THRUST as an SSME, meaning that 2 RS-68's can produce the same thrust as THREE SSME's, but the specific impulse is MUCH lower. This is because the RS-68 was designed to be a "cheap" expendable rocket engine, with a lower part count and easier assembly than SSME. SSME is the cadillac of rocket engines; it has a HIGH specific impulse because of it's combustion cycle (which necessitates a sophisticated design with a high parts count, which increases costs greatly and increases touch labor to assemble, and complicates refurbishment, which adds costs.) SSME is also designed to be serviceable and reusable after flight, which adds a lot of extra parts and complications that aren't needed if the engines were expended with the stage, as all the shuttle follow-ons do. Specific impulse (ISP) seems to really be hurting NASA on the Ares I and Ares V designs, because lower ISP means larger and heavier fuel tanks, holding more fuel, which means heavier liftoff weights, which means higher thrust is required, doubling back into a vicious cycle. There is talk that NASA is going to have to switch to an RS-68 completely redesigned for a channel-wall cooled nozzle. PWR did studies during the RS-68 design that showed it COULD change the RS-68 into a recirculation-cooled engine (standard RS-68's and the "B" variants are all ablatively cooled, meaning there is a layer of material in the nozzle that burns away as the engine is firing, which is acceptable for an engine that will not be reused, and saves substantial costs in manufacturing a cooling-tube or channel wall nozzle, for those who are wondering). The downside is, switching to a recirculation-cooled RS-68 (the "Regen" regeneratively cooled engine) from the standard ablative cooled RS-68 will end up being a MAJOR design project, on par with developing an entirely new engine... the powerhead will require some changes, increased capacity from the turbopumps is required to facilitate pumping the fuel through the nozzle for cooling, since the direct-injection used now requires less flow and power, and probably changes to the injector plate because of flow differences, etc. from the preheated fuel coming from the nozzle. This gets pretty expensive. Designing and building a channel wall cooled nozzle (cheapest and easiest compared to cooling tube walled nozzles) will also be expensive, as will the testing to recertify the engine in this new combination and get it flight ready and into production. It will also substantially raise the price of the engine. Reusing the SSME's, which are already designed and require no costs on that front, and are flight certified and human rated, would eliminate all this costly development, but also would be throwing away a VERY expensive reusable engine(s) on every flight. PWR has done some work on making the SSME's expendable, by simplifying the construction and parts count and reducing the labor needed for assembly, and eliminating the capabilities of refurbishing it after flight, which would substantially reduce the costs for using SSME's as expendables. It would require a development program, but a MUCH smaller one than redesigning and upgrading RS-68 to turn it into a "Regen". The final unit costs out the door, for similar numbers of engines required for a certain number of flights per year, would be a wash, trading off the BIG design effort for RS-68 Regen vs. the small design work on SSME, and the higher production costs per unit on RS-68 Regen vs. the higher unit price for SSME-expendable. The REAL value though, is that SSME has SUCH better ISP that it means you can launch the same payload with a smaller rocket, which saves costs and gives you more flexibility... and it keeps the most advanced rocket engine ever constructed by the US in production for use on future projects, a possibility which will evaporate once the SSME's are all in museums and the tooling, equipment, and knowhow (skilled workers) are gone, just like with F-1.

From what I've read, not everything is turning up roses with J-2X work either-- it's turning out to be more difficult (read EXPENSIVE) than they anticipated, and the results are less spectacular than expected. The ISP on J-2X is turning out to be quite a bit lower than anticipated, which is BAD news for a rocket system that has NO performance margins already, or very low ones, and has little flexibility for upgrades. Lower ISP means more fuel required to do the job, and bigger heavier fuel tanks. Every additional pound on the EDS is a pound less that can be sent through TLI to the moon, so weight is EXTREMELY critical on upperstages, especially translunar and transmars stages, so lower ISP is a VERY big deal...

Anyway... other than THAT, everything is just peachy... except for that whole "we can't afford it, it's too expensive to fly, so what's the point" stuff... :) OL JR :)
 
The original design points for the SSME engines were ten flights between overhaul and a vacuum specific impulse of 455 seconds. Neither goal was achieved - vacuum impulse was 453 seconds, and the engines had to be pulled, inspected, and refurbished after each flight. In the end, the shuttle proved to a very expensive method of recovering reusable engines that perhaps cost more than expendable ones…. https://astronautix.com/engines/ssme.htm#SSME

The principal reason for the Isp difference between the RS-68 Isp: 420 s (vac); 365 s (sea level) and the SSME Isp: 453 s (vac); 363 s (sea level). is the area ratio of the nozzle and the lower thrust chamber pressure. The area ratio for the nozzle for the RS-68 is 21.5 and the chamber pressure is 96 bar versus the area ratio of the SSME of 73.1 and the chamber pressure of 204 bar. The total expansion ratio is 7.2 times greater in the SSME vs the RS-68 which explains the difference. If one were to use a deplyable nozzle shirt on the RS-68 the Isp would be close to the SSME and the cost would be much lower because of 30 years newer technology largely based on Russian hardware.

I still believe that Saturn-V approach of a LOX/Kerosene first stage with LOX/H2 upper stages is the optimium from a cost delivery standpoint.

A 5 engined LOX/Kerosene RD-171 https://astronautix.com/engines/rd171.htm#RD-171 first stage coupled to a two or 3 engined LOX/LH2 RS-68 with a skirt https://astronautix.com/engines/rs68.htm#RS-68 Regen second stage would make a good cheap bus, and would be a modern version of the Saturn-V lower parts.

Bob

https://astronautix.com/engines/ssme.htm#SSME
 
A 5 engined LOX/Kerosene RD-171 https://astronautix.com/engines/rd171.htm#RD-171 first stage coupled to a two or 3 engined LOX/LH2 RS-68 with a skirt https://astronautix.com/engines/rs68.htm#RS-68 Regen second stage would make a good cheap bus, and would be a modern version of the Saturn-V lower parts.

I very much agree. The math tends to agree, too!

The ESAS study is widely available and contains NASA's public justification for the Ares I design. The infamous "Appendix 6" containing the data from the trades that were performed was later leaked to various sources, and illustrates some of the rules that were bent to justify selection of the Ares design. There is a good discussion on the topic (as well as a link to the original document) over at Jon Goff's blog "Selenian Boondocks".

SSME is a neat engine, but is tremendously hampered by thermal issues (from its reusability requirement) and the problems associated with pumping hydrogen into a 3ksi chamber. I recently finished Dick Mulready's book on engine development at Pratt & Whitney; the last chapter contains a blistering exposé on design flaws and development challenges in the SSME architecture. Though the source has a severe point of view on the topic (P&W felt severely betrayed by NASA's selection of Rocketdyne to develop the engine), the technical facts highlighted by Mulready illustrate the major issues with developing a reusable high-pressure hydrogen engine. RS-68 is an excellent compromise on the design of a first-stage hydrogen engine.

(Off topic: RL-10 is a beautiful hydrogen engine, too, but not really appropriate for a first stage engine application -- Mulready goes into significant depth on RL-10, as he was quite high up in that program.)

I must also say that any rocket engine that must have its fuel screened by x-ray after shipment to see if anything cracked inside seems like a bit of a stretch for a manned launcher application. From a vehicle safety standpoint, the selection of the RSRM as the primary first stage element seems heavily influenced by politics.
 
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I very much agree. The math tends to agree, too!

The ESAS study is widely available and contains NASA's public justification for the Ares I design. The infamous "Appendix 6" containing the data from the trades that were performed was later leaked to various sources, and illustrates some of the rules that were bent to justify selection of the Ares design. There is a good discussion on the topic (as well as a link to the original document) over at Jon Goff's blog "Selenian Boondocks".

SSME is a neat engine, but is tremendously hampered by thermal issues (from its reusability requirement) and the problems associated with pumping hydrogen into a 3ksi chamber. I recently finished Dick Mulready's book on engine development at Pratt & Whitney; the last chapter contains a blistering exposé on design flaws and development challenges in the SSME architecture. Though the source has a severe point of view on the topic (P&W felt severely betrayed by NASA's selection of Rocketdyne to develop the engine), the technical facts highlighted by Mulready illustrate the major issues with developing a reusable high-pressure hydrogen engine. RS-68 is an excellent compromise on the design of a first-stage hydrogen engine.

(Off topic: RL-10 is a beautiful hydrogen engine, too, but not really appropriate for a first stage engine application -- Mulready goes into significant depth on RL-10, as he was quite high up in that program.)

I must also say that any rocket engine that must have its fuel screened by x-ray after shipment to see if anything cracked inside seems like a bit of a stretch for a manned launcher application. From a vehicle safety standpoint, the selection of the RSRM as the primary first stage element seems heavily influenced by politics.
David

Agree on all counts.

The RL-10 is such a good design it's still used today, however it doesn't really have the thrust for a heavy lifter operation.

Your statement "From a vehicle safety standpoint, the selection of the RSRM as the primary first stage element seems heavily influenced by politics." IMO reflects the real reason why we got what we have. I'm truly amazed by the made up safety numbers for Ares vs the other possible solutions. The original Shuttle analysis number were 1 in 10,000 IIRC while the actual stats are between 1 in 50 to 1 in 75 failures which reflect more on bad management decisions rather than bad vehicle design. My posts are simply is meant to provide some insight on what might have been possible at a far lower cost if politics did not get in the way of objective science and engineering.

I really hope that Ares has a great flight tomorrow and I'm not knocking the hard working engineering folks who designed and built Ares. I'm sure they did a great job based on the constraints of their marching orders.

Bob
 
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i still like the idea i saw on history channel a few years ago, where they took a vehicle on a maglev track and accellerated it to several hundred MPH, then basically made it hit a jump, and fire up the motor into space...that to me sounds more efficient than a standing start with a rocket motor...you could use less rocket fuel, which means more weight for payload...

but hey, im no rocket scientist, im just a dreamer.
 
David

I really hope that Ares has a great flight tomorrow and I'm not knocking the hard working engineering folks who designed and built Ares. I'm sure they did a great job based on the constraints of their marching orders.

Bob

I agree 100%, I'm looking forward to a successful flight. Like you said Bob, a lot of engineers having been working on the Ares to this point. A successful test flight will be rewarding for all of the long hours spent by everyone involved in the project.

I'm not all that interested in the politics behind the design of Ares. Questioning the direction NASA is taking, or the designs being used as been going on since the start of the space program. Yet, to date I think the results that NASA has produced have been great. Could they have been better, or could we be further along, yes! However, it seems to me that while NASA has to contend with politics, and budgets the majority of the decisions seem to be proven to be correct in the end.

It will be interesting to see what the future brings. If Ares is to be the route to take, let's get on with it starting tomorrow. If the decision is made to take another route, fine as well. What's not fine is really on the Russians one more day than we have to, so lets get on with it either way!!!
 
The original design points for the SSME engines were ten flights between overhaul and a vacuum specific impulse of 455 seconds. Neither goal was achieved - vacuum impulse was 453 seconds, and the engines had to be pulled, inspected, and refurbished after each flight. In the end, the shuttle proved to a very expensive method of recovering reusable engines that perhaps cost more than expendable ones…. https://astronautix.com/engines/ssme.htm#SSME

The principal reason for the Isp difference between the RS-68 Isp: 420 s (vac); 365 s (sea level) and the SSME Isp: 453 s (vac); 363 s (sea level). is the area ratio of the nozzle and the lower thrust chamber pressure. The area ratio for the nozzle for the RS-68 is 21.5 and the chamber pressure is 96 bar versus the area ratio of the SSME of 73.1 and the chamber pressure of 204 bar. The total expansion ratio is 7.2 times greater in the SSME vs the RS-68 which explains the difference. If one were to use a deplyable nozzle shirt on the RS-68 the Isp would be close to the SSME and the cost would be much lower because of 30 years newer technology largely based on Russian hardware.

I still believe that Saturn-V approach of a LOX/Kerosene first stage with LOX/H2 upper stages is the optimium from a cost delivery standpoint.

A 5 engined LOX/Kerosene RD-171 https://astronautix.com/engines/rd171.htm#RD-171 first stage coupled to a two or 3 engined LOX/LH2 RS-68 with a skirt https://astronautix.com/engines/rs68.htm#RS-68 Regen second stage would make a good cheap bus, and would be a modern version of the Saturn-V lower parts.

Bob

https://astronautix.com/engines/ssme.htm#SSME

ABSOLUTELY!!!! Now you're talking! Just need to convince the top floor at NASA...

With the high thrust of the RS-68, I doubt you'd really need more than one for the upperstage. One other problem is that the RS-68 takes a TON of helium to get it started-- they're groundstarted engines and require a lot of GSE. The helium requirements for startup are pretty bad from what I understand, SO much in fact that the six and seven RS-68 engined proposals for Ares V have come into question about where all the helium is going to come from... They'd have to do a development program to make an RS-68 airstartable, and restart capability would be required for an EDS stage...

I think they'd be money ahead to finish RL-60... it was virtually complete and ready for testing and certification when it was cancelled. It's basically an upsized RL-10 with a few upgrades from what I understand, and would be fairly cheap to produce and should be a reliable engine since it's based on RL-10, which is VERY reliable. Even RL-10 is a good upperstage engine, though it requires a cluster of six or seven to equal a J-2S or X. The number crunchers balk at having that many engines whittling down their safety numbers, but on the other hand, it adds redundancy through engine-out capability, something that I think is underrated considering that if your single J-2X refuses to light, quits, or won't relight, the mission MUST be aborted, and aborts are dangerous. Shuttle has had a few instances of engine-outs and still achieved orbit and completed the missions, as did Apollo/Saturn. If you only have one upperstage engine, ANY failure is an abort, unless it's within a couple seconds of shutdown and no restart is required (not an EDS flight, IOW).

Kerosene engines ARE the way to go for first stages. The tankage can be smaller and lighter and kerosene engines are very thrusty, despite the lower ISP, and the Russian RD-170 is an EXCELLENT engine. PWR COULD manufacture them in the US if it was necessary or desirable to do so. SO far nobody's willing to pay the bill to do it though. Your proposed rocket sounds amazingly like the Atlas V Phase II/III proposals, which unfortunately NASA is determined to shoot down because it shoots their grandiose plans for a huge in-house rocket design bureau at MSFC in the foot and cuts it out of the loop. Also, ATK's lobby has been working overtime all along to make sure that SDLV (shuttle derived launch vehicles) are kept around, so that they keep getting fat contracts to develop five-segment boosters and selling SRB's on future missions. They've crouched this as maintaining solid rocket motor proficiency and capabilities as a 'national interest' for defense-- IE if they weren't making SRB's they'd lose the skills to make ICBM's, SLBM's, and other missiles... From my point of view, if DOD (Dept. of Defense) places a high enough priority on keeping solid motor proficiency as a national priority, let them pay for it from the defense budget instead of NASA's meager budget... DOD could always use another missile program anyway... Lord knows the Russians have been developing plenty of ICBM's since the cold war 'ended'....

Anyway, excellent points there! Shuttle engines expansion ratio is optimized for high-altitude operation, which hurts it's performance at sea-level, but since the SRB's are doing the lion's share of the work until SRB jettison, it doesn't really matter so much. After those SRB's are gone though, you really NEED those SSME's to be working at peak efficiency. More tradeoffs... that's what makes engineering so interesting... :) RS-68 OTOH needs as much thrust and power as possible at liftoff, since the Delta IV is flown single stick, with various numbers of small SRB's, or in the three-body heavy version with NO SRB's... different tradeoffs... :)

Thanks for the info! Great stuff! OL JR :)
 
Bob,

The SRBs come on train from Utah to KSC and back to Utah by train. the only time they are on a ship is when the FREEDOM/Liberty Star pick them up.

ET comes on the Pegasus barge from where it is manufactured in Michoud LA
 
Bob,

The SRBs come on train from Utah to KSC and back to Utah by train. the only time they are on a ship is when the FREEDOM/Liberty Star pick them up.

ET comes on the Pegasus barge from where it is manufactured in Michoud LA
We delivered a laser based contamination monitor to NASA Marshall for use in the SRB refurb facility in Michoud in the early 90's. The recovered SRBs are barged to there from the Cape for disassembly, cleaning, rounding and shipment back to ATK in UT for reuse. I mistakenly assumed that the finished SRB motor segments were deliverd to Michoud by train and barged to the Cape, but checked and found that the return barge shipment is only used for the External Tank that is manufactured in Michoud.

Bob
 
I thought the SRB's only had limited thrust control and the SSME's did most of steering. Does the Aries booster have more gimbal action, or is it that the stick just doesn't need as much vectoring for guidance?
 
Well we both learned something bob, I didn't know they cleaned them at Michoud. I've seen the skirts trucked around KSC a few times, and though I just missed the segments going by.

tbzep
yes the SRB's do have limited vectoring, I don't know if the aft skirt has been modified for increased vector control or not

I've had rockets that have done this on the field, it means they don't want to fly.
 
I thought the SRB's only had limited thrust control and the SSME's did most of steering. Does the Aries booster have more gimbal action, or is it that the stick just doesn't need as much vectoring for guidance?

TVC control has been a significant area of concern, including possibly hitting the base of the tower at liftoff, which could be catastrophic.

I read about it awhile back, not sure what they planned on doing about it except modifying the 'flyaway manuever' at liftoff... similar to what Saturn V did shortly after liftoff, flying sideways away from the tower for extra clearance...

They just scrubbed for today at 10:20 Central... OL JR :)
 
Bummer scrubbed for today.... I guess I need to send them a decal...:D

They seem pretty concerned about this 'triboelectric constraint' thing... evidently range safety is concerned that static discharge along the rocket flying through clouds could interfere with thier range safety systems... IE they couldn't blow it up if they pressed the button. Some NASA engineers were saying that it could screw up their telemetry from the sensors too...

They were looking for holes in the clouds to shoot it through, but the front that dumped an inch and half of rain on us here west of Houston yesterday is moving in on them today... so no joy...

Kinda reminds me of that movie where they shot the rocket through the eye of the hurricane... ya right as if! :D OL JR :)
 
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