Dr. Zooch Saturn 1b build thread

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Luke...its called Living and Working in Space, the NASA history of Skylab...looks like its a NASA publication and it seems pretty detailed..lots of footnotes and stuff..the kind stuff us lawyers love! Paging thru it there is some discussion of how they decided to use Complex 39 for the Saturn 1bs and I am interested in reading that....something tells me that getting the Saturn 1b operational at Pad 39 involved more than simply installing a milk stool onto a LUT...looks like a good book!

OK..more build pictures to follow shortly!

Very true...

What is the name of your Skylab book??

Later! OL JR :)
 
OK...last night we wrapped up the CM so tonight its time to complete the SM....I used 1/64 chrome tape to make the 4 panels on the SM
000_0253a.jpg

Apollo 7 had different white radiator panels on its CM than any other Apollo CM...thankfully Rosko Racer made an excellent wrap for this build...I used his radiator panels and glued them to the SM. I also cut out his thrusters and glued them on. Now Rosko makes two SM wraps..one with the thrusters and one without and I admit, it would be much easier to simply use the wrap...but I was trying to get a more 3 dimensional look with my build...
000_0254a.jpg000_0256a.jpg000_0257a.jpg000_0258a.jpg
 
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because I have too much time on my hands...I decided to try to recreate the actual radiator panels on Rosko's wraps by adding small strips of 1/64 tape...I was trying to get that radiator look...
000_0259a.jpg

after laying down four strips on each set of radiators....it was time to glue the command module to its service module...I used some additional strips of tape to hide the seam....so here is my humble attempt to make a Dr. Zooch Apollo 7 command and service module...000_0268a.jpg000_0269a.jpg

hope you guys like it!
 
OK...next up is the LM adapter....once again, time to break out the 1/64 tape to make the SLA panels.....its just as simple as measuring the circumference, trimming the tape to fit, find your start point and gently twist the adapter trying to get an even line across the base...000_0271a.jpg

from that point, trim small strips of tape for the vertical sections of the panels and try to lay down as evenly spaced around the adapter as you can..000_0273a.jpg


then its time to join the CM/SM to its LM adapter...our Apollo spacecraft is nearly complete!! just the dreaded launch escape tower is next!! (don't worry....I have plans for that as well...)
000_0274a.jpg000_0275a.jpg000_0276a.jpg

I like how this turned out! hope you guys agree!
 
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Luke...its called Living and Working in Space, the NASA history of Skylab...looks like its a NASA publication and it seems pretty detailed..lots of footnotes and stuff..the kind stuff us lawyers love! Paging thru it there is some discussion of how they decided to use Complex 39 for the Saturn 1bs and I am interested in reading that....something tells me that getting the Saturn 1b operational at Pad 39 involved more than simply installing a milk stool onto a LUT...looks like a good book!

OK..more build pictures to follow shortly!

Interesting... If you love footnotes, you'd LOVE Assif Siddiqi's "Sputnik and the Soviet Space Challenge", and the second half of what was once all one book "The Soviet Space Challenge to Apollo". Every page has SOME sort of footnotes... usually if the text lists a meeting of a state commission about a certain mission or project, the footnotes will give every chief designer or space program leader in attendance, and his affiliation... REALLY incredibly detailed. I've learned more about the Soviet program in the last few months reading these books that I have ever known before... I'm almost up to the Salyut 1/Soyuz 11 disaster...

Each book is at least 500 pages, of VERY SMALL type (like law book small type... LOL:) ( I still have my "Texas Annotated Statutes" and "Code of Criminal Procedure" upstairs at my Grandmother's house from my police academy days... bout went blind reading that sucker...)

Back to the build! OL JR :)
 
because I have too much time on my hands...I decided to try to recreate the actual radiator panels on Rosko's wraps by adding small strips of 1/64 tape...I was trying to get that radiator look...
View attachment 116180

after laying down four strips on each set of radiators....it was time to glue the command module to its service module...I used some additional strips of tape to hide the seam....so here is my humble attempt to make a Dr. Zooch Apollo 7 command and service module...View attachment 116181View attachment 116182

hope you guys like it!

OH MAN that looks REALLY SHARP!!!

Kinda screams for 3D thruster quads though... in for a penny, in for a pound, eh?? LOL:)

You'd have to use a hobby knife to snip the tips off toothpics and carve a teensy little rectangle of basswood (don't even THINK about balsa-- too soft to do ANYTHING with it at that size!) and glue it all up, and cover it with a pretty good layer of glue to really lock everything together...

BUT, it would be EXCRUCIATINGLY SMALL to work on at that size...

On second thought, the 2D "printouts" of the nozzles look pretty good... :)

One alternative would be to CAST them-- make one, embed it in clay, and then dab a bit of epoxy into the "mold" to make four of the quads... wouldn't take over a drop of epoxy for each one at this scale! But you'd have to carve or make a master first...

Are you gonna make a tiny CM umbilical shield tunnel?? It goes on the opposite side from the hatch, at position III. (IIRC) It's that little rounded top tapered square/rectangular cross-sectioned piece that covered all the umbilical wiring and hoses connecting the CM to the SM during flight, which were all severed by an explosive powered guillotine at CM sep... wouldn't be too hard to carve that out of a bit of evergreen or basswood and round the top over a bit with a file or sandpaper... Maybe even a couple layers of tape would look right at this size...

Just throwing out some ideas to really make the realism and POP pay off! I didn't plan on superdetailing my BT-80 Saturn V until I got into it... then the impulse to "add more of the real things" just kicked in and actually it was a lot of fun (to me) coming up with ways to make all those "greebles", and make them as close to scale size as I possibly could... (I have the NAR Saturn V blueprints I got back in the mid-80's in high school... they're slightly silverfish-nibbled from YEARS in Grandma's attic during my rocketry hiatus, but that's nothing that lamination with scotch tape cannot fix... :) All the greeble detail, location, and dimensions are on there... :))

Later! OL JR :)
 
OK...next up is the LM adapter....once again, time to break out the 1/64 tape to make the SLA panels.....its just as simple as measuring the circumference, trimming the tape to fit, find your start point and gently twist the adapter trying to get an even line across the base...View attachment 116188

from that point, trim small strips of tape for the vertical sections of the panels and try to lay down as evenly spaced around the adapter as you can..View attachment 116189


then its time to join the CM/SM to its LM adapter...our Apollo spacecraft is nearly complete!! just the dreaded launch escape tower is next!! (don't worry....I have plans for that as well...)
View attachment 116190View attachment 116191View attachment 116192

I like how this turned out! hope you guys agree!

WOW that really does pop!

If you're interested, there were some various greebles on the LM Adapter slot panels that you might consider adding... there's at least one "access hatch" for ground personnel to climb in for servicing it at the pad (via umbilical arm) and some details of the hinge/latch assemblies and stuff... all of which could easily by cut out of cardstock and carefully glued in place...

It really looks nice though!

Later! OL JR :)
 
LOL....in for a penny in for a pound is exactly what I was thinking when I was working on this..I actually tried those thrusters but gave up....it is just too small for me...I have actually used my camera to take close ups for posting build pics and then noticed things on the camera that I just couldn't see with my eyes and then went back to try to fix ... and I debated making that cm/sm tunnel, but that thing curves over the base of the cm onto the sm and I thought that wouldn't be as easy as it appeared.....so I kinda decided to call it enough up here! I have to admit, I am having a lot of fun playing around with this little kit up here. I just love this kit.

ya know, NASA had a great article on their web page a few years ago about that cm/sm tunnel....the engineers for Orion wanted to get an idea as to how the Apollo engineers solved that issue and they went to the Saturn V exhibit at the cape...I believe the cm/sm for that display was the rescue cm from the Skylab days ...anyways they allowed the engineers to pop the cover off to see those connections etc and all of the remove before flight tags were still hanging from there...hadn't seen the light of day in 30 years.

OH MAN that looks REALLY SHARP!!!

Kinda screams for 3D thruster quads though... in for a penny, in for a pound, eh?? LOL:)

You'd have to use a hobby knife to snip the tips off toothpics and carve a teensy little rectangle of basswood (don't even THINK about balsa-- too soft to do ANYTHING with it at that size!) and glue it all up, and cover it with a pretty good layer of glue to really lock everything together...

BUT, it would be EXCRUCIATINGLY SMALL to work on at that size...

On second thought, the 2D "printouts" of the nozzles look pretty good... :)

One alternative would be to CAST them-- make one, embed it in clay, and then dab a bit of epoxy into the "mold" to make four of the quads... wouldn't take over a drop of epoxy for each one at this scale! But you'd have to carve or make a master first...

Are you gonna make a tiny CM umbilical shield tunnel?? It goes on the opposite side from the hatch, at position III. (IIRC) It's that little rounded top tapered square/rectangular cross-sectioned piece that covered all the umbilical wiring and hoses connecting the CM to the SM during flight, which were all severed by an explosive powered guillotine at CM sep... wouldn't be too hard to carve that out of a bit of evergreen or basswood and round the top over a bit with a file or sandpaper... Maybe even a couple layers of tape would look right at this size...

Just throwing out some ideas to really make the realism and POP pay off! I didn't plan on superdetailing my BT-80 Saturn V until I got into it... then the impulse to "add more of the real things" just kicked in and actually it was a lot of fun (to me) coming up with ways to make all those "greebles", and make them as close to scale size as I possibly could... (I have the NAR Saturn V blueprints I got back in the mid-80's in high school... they're slightly silverfish-nibbled from YEARS in Grandma's attic during my rocketry hiatus, but that's nothing that lamination with scotch tape cannot fix... :) All the greeble detail, location, and dimensions are on there... :))

Later! OL JR :)
 
It`s like luke s says ,man that does look sharp ,I mean I`m just surprised how much detail you can get on something that small and make it look good......


.....well friend ,you make it look great !!!!!!

You`re doing a fine job ,I sure do enjoy looking at you progress and great pictures ,very interesting and learning a lot !

Sincerely yours

Paul t
 
thanks for the kind words Paul! I have to admit...some of this is simply beyond the ability of my eyes anymore...I caught stuff when I took pictures to post that I hadn't seen...had to run back and try to fix it. But, I am having fun with this little kit....I am working on the launch escape system now...I hope to post more pictures this evening!

It`s like luke s says ,man that does look sharp ,I mean I`m just surprised how much detail you can get on something that small and make it look good......


.....well friend ,you make it look great !!!!!!

You`re doing a fine job ,I sure do enjoy looking at you progress and great pictures ,very interesting and learning a lot !

Sincerely yours

Paul t
 
LOL....in for a penny in for a pound is exactly what I was thinking when I was working on this..I actually tried those thrusters but gave up....it is just too small for me...I have actually used my camera to take close ups for posting build pics and then noticed things on the camera that I just couldn't see with my eyes and then went back to try to fix ... and I debated making that cm/sm tunnel, but that thing curves over the base of the cm onto the sm and I thought that wouldn't be as easy as it appeared.....so I kinda decided to call it enough up here! I have to admit, I am having a lot of fun playing around with this little kit up here. I just love this kit.

ya know, NASA had a great article on their web page a few years ago about that cm/sm tunnel....the engineers for Orion wanted to get an idea as to how the Apollo engineers solved that issue and they went to the Saturn V exhibit at the cape...I believe the cm/sm for that display was the rescue cm from the Skylab days ...anyways they allowed the engineers to pop the cover off to see those connections etc and all of the remove before flight tags were still hanging from there...hadn't seen the light of day in 30 years.

Yeah, I read that too... interesting stuff...

Makes you wonder about the caliber of our engineers that they have to go into the MUSEUM and see how their Dad or Granddad put stuff together to have a clue how to do it... I mean, COME ON... those guys did it with SLIDE RULES and NO previous experience (at least not building spacecraft, or very little experience anyway-- most of their experience was from jets and piston engine fighters and bomber aircraft and smaller rockets and missiles and stuff... yet they designed it, made it, and it worked, perfectly...

The Russians on the other hand have had problems with their disconnects... more than a couple Vostoks and Soyuz's came back into the atmosphere with the aggregate section (SM) still partially attached to the reentry module (CM) due to the umbilicals not being cut or being disconnected... Heck on one Soyuz flight, the cosmonaut jettisoned the orbital module and aggregate module after retrofire, and the orbital module (the roundish one in front) disconnected, but the aggregate section did not... thing is, it will enter NOSE FIRST that way, with the upper hatch between the orbital section and the reentry section bearing the brunt of the reentry heat, and it doesn't have a heatshield (just a little protection since it's usually at the top or "rear" of the reentering spacecraft). The capsule entered and the cosmonaut is hanging from his straps since he's reentering backward, and the hatch starts to smoke as the seals/O-rings are starting to smoke and the paint is burning off... the hatch starts to bulge inward and he fully expects to be dead in the next couple seconds, since the hatch is about to burn through and the jet of hot plasma when it gives way will kill him instantly... then, miraculously, the aggregate section breaks free of the reentry module, which then due to the change in CG/CP, swings around heatshield first, relieving the heating on the forward hatch... The aggregate section then burned up as the capsule finished reentry...

Later! OL JR :)
 
thanks for the kind words Paul! I have to admit...some of this is simply beyond the ability of my eyes anymore...I caught stuff when I took pictures to post that I hadn't seen...had to run back and try to fix it. But, I am having fun with this little kit....I am working on the launch escape system now...I hope to post more pictures this evening!

Looking forward with great interest to your ideas on the tower... I was at the point of needing to do the towers on the Apollos, either that or the motor mounts, and was in a quandary over both, so I set them aside. (The capsules on the BT-80 Saturn V and on the "Saturn I-F" are BOTH the exact same capsules as on the Saturn IB kits). So I'll be looking forward to your tutorial on building the mini-apollo towers... :)

Where did you get the tape again?? What's it called??

Later! OL JR :)
 
OK....now its time to take on the dreaded Dr. Zooch LES....actually...its not really that bad. I am deviating from the kit again on my tower...instead of using the wire that Dr. Zooch provides, I used .020 rods from Evergreen. Now, one thing I am certain of is that Dr. Zooch's tower is strong and works..I have flown several of his 1bs and I did have the tower get impacted by the booster on one fight and the tower fell from 300 feet (B6-2 engine) and stuck in the ground without a scratch on it. Simpy glued it back on at the pad and you would never know..I am not sure of the strength of my modified towers.

Dr. Zooch provides two small sticks and some thin metal wire to construct the LES
000_0277a.jpg

the first step is to round these sticks by gently running them thru some sandpaper..I used 320 grit
000_0279a.jpg before long they are sanded into a round shape000_0280a.jpg

then you take the LES fairing and gently trim it from the sheet..I gently ran this fairing against the side of my x-acto knife handle to start to round it into shape and then glued it together. This forms that fairing at the base of the LES tower 000_0281a.jpg000_0282a.jpg
 
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the instructions advise you to cut the now rounded dowels into 3/4" lengths. These are then glued onto the inside of the LES fairing at right angles to one another
000_0284a.jpg

rather than attach the wires to the outside edges of these rounded dowels, I cut and trimmed small pieces of the .020 rod so that they fit on the inside edge of the dowels...I thought this would be a more realistic look...its not as hard as it looks because the dowels and white glue set up pretty quickly. The tower is not tall enough on this rocket to recreate the entire LES tower brace pattern, so I kinda winged it and used the top row of brackets and the bottom row of what would have been on the real tower. I start with that middle support bracket and place each into place around the LES tower legs.
000_0288a.jpg

from this set of brackets, pretty much everything is built up and down from that level. The top row of brackets is a large "X" shape...so I glued an trimmed piece of rod onto the inside edge of the LES legs. I then glued another cross bar to make the "X" shape by gluing over top of the other. This rod is so thin that it fits pretty good. The lower level consists of an inverted "V" bracket that runs from the base of the tower support to the middle of that lower bracket we set into place above...I went around each side of the LES tower doing one side of the inverted "V" bracket at a time. By the time I got all the way around, the first brackets had set up and it was simply a matter of putting each piece into its place. The completed tower, I think, looks a little more realistic. I used the wooden dowels or sticks provided in the kit because its my intention to fly this rocket...I guess we'll see how tough they are!
000_0290a.jpg

the tower is in the paint shop right now! let me know what you think? I am little nervous about the strength of this tower...I tried to use glue to reinforce each of the joints. I hope its enough
 
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Luke, the tape is called Line-O-tape pinstripe. I bought it on line at a hobby shop up here in NJ called Hobbymaster...tI am trying to attach the web link so I hope this workshttps://www.hobbymasters.com/

your BT80 Saturn V is going to be awesome!!

Looking forward with great interest to your ideas on the tower... I was at the point of needing to do the towers on the Apollos, either that or the motor mounts, and was in a quandary over both, so I set them aside. (The capsules on the BT-80 Saturn V and on the "Saturn I-F" are BOTH the exact same capsules as on the Saturn IB kits). So I'll be looking forward to your tutorial on building the mini-apollo towers... :)

Where did you get the tape again?? What's it called??

Later! OL JR :)
 
holy crap...can you imagine being that Russian Cosmonaut and watching your hatch heat up, smoke and then bulge in at you????

I kind of liked that the younger engineers would come see how their fathers and grandfathers approached and solved a problem, but I do hear what you are saying. The older generation on Apollo had something the younger guys will never have I fear...and that is an unlimited budget. In the early years, Apollo was a national priority and I think that priority was in more ways than just $$$, these guys were all working on a project that they KNEW would be the biggest thing they would ever do in their lifetime and that motivation is powerful, IMHO.

Luke, it is just amazing to see what those guys did with slide rules...even with all of the money they needed....I think you posted this on another thread a while back and I thought it was true, Von Braun and his team made elegant engineering decisions on the Saturn V...or something to that effect.... from the choice of fuels for the first stage, the tremendous engineering in the second stage in terms of thrust to weight....I can't recall what we were discussing, this was a few months back, but I thought you were just spot on. As much as I love the Saturn 1b, the Saturn V is just a masterpiece...it really is.


Yeah, I read that too... interesting stuff...

Makes you wonder about the caliber of our engineers that they have to go into the MUSEUM and see how their Dad or Granddad put stuff together to have a clue how to do it... I mean, COME ON... those guys did it with SLIDE RULES and NO previous experience (at least not building spacecraft, or very little experience anyway-- most of their experience was from jets and piston engine fighters and bomber aircraft and smaller rockets and missiles and stuff... yet they designed it, made it, and it worked, perfectly...

The Russians on the other hand have had problems with their disconnects... more than a couple Vostoks and Soyuz's came back into the atmosphere with the aggregate section (SM) still partially attached to the reentry module (CM) due to the umbilicals not being cut or being disconnected... Heck on one Soyuz flight, the cosmonaut jettisoned the orbital module and aggregate module after retrofire, and the orbital module (the roundish one in front) disconnected, but the aggregate section did not... thing is, it will enter NOSE FIRST that way, with the upper hatch between the orbital section and the reentry section bearing the brunt of the reentry heat, and it doesn't have a heatshield (just a little protection since it's usually at the top or "rear" of the reentering spacecraft). The capsule entered and the cosmonaut is hanging from his straps since he's reentering backward, and the hatch starts to smoke as the seals/O-rings are starting to smoke and the paint is burning off... the hatch starts to bulge inward and he fully expects to be dead in the next couple seconds, since the hatch is about to burn through and the jet of hot plasma when it gives way will kill him instantly... then, miraculously, the aggregate section breaks free of the reentry module, which then due to the change in CG/CP, swings around heatshield first, relieving the heating on the forward hatch... The aggregate section then burned up as the capsule finished reentry...

Later! OL JR :)
 
the instructions advise you to cut the now rounded dowels into 3/4" lengths. These are then glued onto the inside of the LES fairing at right angles to one another
View attachment 116269

rather than attach the wires to the outside edges of these rounded dowels, I cut and trimmed small pieces of the .020 rod so that they fit on the inside edge of the dowels...I thought this would be a more realistic look...its not as hard as it looks because the dowels an white glue set up pretty quickly. The tower is not tall enough on this rocket to recreate the entire LES tower brace pattern, so I kinda winged it and used the top row of brackets and the bottom row of what would have been on the real tower. I start with that middle support bracket and place each into place around the LES tower legs.
View attachment 116273

from this set of brackets, pretty much everything is built up and down from that level. The top row of brackets is a large "X" shape...so I glued an trimmed piece of rod onto the inside edge of the LES legs. I then glued another cross bar to make the "X" shape by gluing over top of the other. This rod is so thin that it fits pretty good. The lower level consists of an inverted "V" bracket that runs from the base of the tower support to the middle of that lower bracket we set into place above...I went around each side of the LES tower doing one side of the inverted "V" bracket at a time. By the time I got all the way around, the first brackets had set up and it was simply a matter of putting each piece into its place. The completed tower, I think, looks a little more realistic. I used the wooden dowels or sticks provided in the kit because its my intention to fly this rocket...I guess we'll see how tough they are!
View attachment 116277

the tower is in the paint shop right now! let me know what you think? I am little nervous about the strength of this tower...I tried to use glue to reinforce each of the joints. I hope its enough

What glue did you use on the plastic bits??

I know the tower on the Freedom 7 Mercury Redstone is built up from wood dowels and very-thin steel wires cut to length and arranged in a zig-zag pattern identical to the original Mercury LES tower... I glued these up with yellow wood glue and went back with a toothpick and "filleted" these connections after they dried the first time, just to give a little more "oomf" to the connection... but of course, it doesn't make it as pretty as the tower you have here... the joints are a bit more 'gobby' on mine...

It looks great, I'm just curious about your choice of glues... and what your experience with them is...

Later! OL JR :)
 
holy crap...can you imagine being that Russian Cosmonaut and watching your hatch heat up, smoke and then bulge in at you????

I kind of liked that the younger engineers would come see how their fathers and grandfathers approached and solved a problem, but I do hear what you are saying. The older generation on Apollo had something the younger guys will never have I fear...and that is an unlimited budget. In the early years, Apollo was a national priority and I think that priority was in more ways than just $$$, these guys were all working on a project that they KNEW would be the biggest thing they would ever do in their lifetime and that motivation is powerful, IMHO.

Luke, it is just amazing to see what those guys did with slide rules...even with all of the money they needed....I think you posted this on another thread a while back and I thought it was true, Von Braun and his team made elegant engineering decisions on the Saturn V...or something to that effect.... from the choice of fuels for the first stage, the tremendous engineering in the second stage in terms of thrust to weight....I can't recall what we were discussing, this was a few months back, but I thought you were just spot on. As much as I love the Saturn 1b, the Saturn V is just a masterpiece...it really is.

Yes, quite true... the fact that they managed to "get it all right the first time" with only slide rules and without the benefit of 50 years of experience in what works and what doesn't just boggles the mind. BUT, Apollo/Saturn didn't have an UNLIMITED budget... in fact, it was adequate for the job, but the idea that they somehow had a "blank check" is more urban myth than anything else... When you look at the spending as a percent of the federal budget back then, then yes, NASA was getting about 3X what it's getting now. But, it certainly wasn't a "blank check" that it's purported to be. Remember that NASA at the time was having to construct EVERYTHING-- Kennedy Space Center and the entire Space Launch Complex 39, including pads A and B, the VAB, the crawler and crawlerways, the center itself, EVERYTHING. Remember that the Mercury and Gemini missions were all flown on close derivatives of Air Force Missiles, and flew from Cape Canaveral Air Force Station, and most of the work was done over there to that point, specifically in Hangar S (for Mercury). Johnson Space Center was a cow pasture at the beginning of the space age and Mission Control didn't come online until the second Gemini flight. Everything else at that point had been controlled from Mercury Mission Control at CCAFS. Similarly, Marshall Space Flight Center had undergone a massive transformation, with the building of vibration test facilities, firing test stands, etc... The early Saturn S-IC first stage tests of Saturn V were SO powerful that it was breaking windows in Huntsville, so the Mississippi Test Facility was built to test the Saturn V first stages and engines in a more remote location that was still accessible by barge from MSFC in Alabama shipping completed test stages downriver, and NASA also constructed the Michoud Assembly Facility just north of New Orleans to construct the massive first stages for the Saturn V as well. Basically, virtually ALL the primary facilities we connect with the human spaceflight program were constructed from the swamps and beaches and cow pastures and cotton fields in the southern US during the build up for Project Apollo... that's a LOT of infrastructure, and infrastructure costs a LOT of money! Given the fact that all that construction was going on, along with all the support systems development (the Deep Space Network was undergoing substantial improvement and increase in capabilities to allow communications with the Apollo vehicles in lunar orbit and on the surface of the Moon... Plus considerable development and support program funding was going at the Jet Propulsion Laboratory in California, to develop the needed support roles of the unmanned space program's Ranger, Surveyor, and Lunar Orbiter projects in support of Project Apollo.

What does it all mean?? Well, considering the amount of development going on for facilities and infrastructure and support programs, even with 3X the current budget, the actual money being spent on the development of the actual Saturn flight vehicles in design and testing, probably was broadly on par with what is currently being spent on the development of NASA's SLS today... Remember that the entire Apollo project cost $26 billion dollars, estimated, in early 70's dollars... while inflation would probably make that number 3-4 times higher in today's devalued dollars, remember too that NASA spent 6 years and $9 BILLION dollars on primarily Ares I and Orion development alone, with a tiny fraction going to Ares V early research and development, along with Altair lunar lander before it was canceled (very early in its development). Also note that MOST of the existing infrastructure was to be reused with the Ares I/V and Orion... IOW, during Apollo, NASA was building the equivalent of four major space centers from scratch, and investing considerable money into support programs, suit development, engine development of the F-1 and J-2, development of the lunar lander, systems development, you name it... NONE of which was being done under Constellation... In fact, Constellation was siphoning off funding from aeronautical research and the unmanned program to support its own bloated expenses and schedule delays...

One other thing is RADICALLY different about today's NASA versus that during Apollo-- Apollo was done before NASA became a bloated bureaucracy that it is today... before the entrenched power bases that are present today got into the positions that they presently hold, which is where they're now actually dictating what technology gets "reused" on the new programs whether it makes sense for the long term or not... what centers and contractors get what jobs to keep the political players and their power bases happy... Oh, make no mistake-- there were plenty of political games going on back then as well... the choice of putting the Manned Spacecraft Center in Houston, of all places, which at the time had basically ZERO ties to the aeronautical manufacturing and design establishment, but which happened to be located in the Space Program's biggest political powerhouse's state (that being, Lyndon Baines Johnson) was widely and correctly in no small part perceived as being a mostly politically motivated move, and one which the Manned Spaceflight Task Group charged with designing and overseeing Apollo was NOT thrilled with...) The choices of contractors also was coming under more scrutiny by the time the Apollo contracts were let and there were some pretty egregious decisions made that a lot of folks called into question, but basically it was all "child's play" compared to the present entrenched bureaucratic system of corporate lobbyists, mega-contractors, and political players...

The other thing is, it seems patently rediculous that it's going to cost, by most estimates, in the neighborhood of $36 BILLION dollars to take the EXISTING shuttle technology, engines, tankage, and boosters, and create a new "inline" design for the next heavy lift shuttle-derived vehicle which is supposed to fulfill that role for the next 30 years... While part of that is for "infrastructure CHANGES and SOME new equipment (like the Ares I MLP/tower, which was scheduled for demolition after the cancellation of Ares I, and is now going to be heavily modified at considerable cost for SLS) and some is for new tooling, neither the Constellation program NOR SLS had to bear the burden of infrastructure development costs that had to be borne during Project Apollo... quite apart from the actual Saturn Vehicle design, development, testing, and evaluation costs...

That is a BIG part of what's wrong with NASA... and sadly, fixing THAT problem is a lot more than even the brilliant engineers in NASA and industry are capable of fixing...

Later! OL JR :)
 
Hi Luke...I used Elmers Glue all

What glue did you use on the plastic bits??

I know the tower on the Freedom 7 Mercury Redstone is built up from wood dowels and very-thin steel wires cut to length and arranged in a zig-zag pattern identical to the original Mercury LES tower... I glued these up with yellow wood glue and went back with a toothpick and "filleted" these connections after they dried the first time, just to give a little more "oomf" to the connection... but of course, it doesn't make it as pretty as the tower you have here... the joints are a bit more 'gobby' on mine...

It looks great, I'm just curious about your choice of glues... and what your experience with them is...

Later! OL JR :)
 
Luke, I have always wondered if the estimate of $26 billion included ALL of the infrastructure you mentioned or just the flight hardware....just looking at all of the stuff that NASA had designed and built in the 60's is simply amazing...just seems like it would cost more that $26 billion....it may not have been unlimited, but compared to what NASA has now it sure seems like it! And as you said, that they pretty much nailed it on the first try makes it even more amazing.

Yes, quite true... the fact that they managed to "get it all right the first time" with only slide rules and without the benefit of 50 years of experience in what works and what doesn't just boggles the mind. BUT, Apollo/Saturn didn't have an UNLIMITED budget... in fact, it was adequate for the job, but the idea that they somehow had a "blank check" is more urban myth than anything else... When you look at the spending as a percent of the federal budget back then, then yes, NASA was getting about 3X what it's getting now. But, it certainly wasn't a "blank check" that it's purported to be. Remember that NASA at the time was having to construct EVERYTHING-- Kennedy Space Center and the entire Space Launch Complex 39, including pads A and B, the VAB, the crawler and crawlerways, the center itself, EVERYTHING. Remember that the Mercury and Gemini missions were all flown on close derivatives of Air Force Missiles, and flew from Cape Canaveral Air Force Station, and most of the work was done over there to that point, specifically in Hangar S (for Mercury). Johnson Space Center was a cow pasture at the beginning of the space age and Mission Control didn't come online until the second Gemini flight. Everything else at that point had been controlled from Mercury Mission Control at CCAFS. Similarly, Marshall Space Flight Center had undergone a massive transformation, with the building of vibration test facilities, firing test stands, etc... The early Saturn S-IC first stage tests of Saturn V were SO powerful that it was breaking windows in Huntsville, so the Mississippi Test Facility was built to test the Saturn V first stages and engines in a more remote location that was still accessible by barge from MSFC in Alabama shipping completed test stages downriver, and NASA also constructed the Michoud Assembly Facility just north of New Orleans to construct the massive first stages for the Saturn V as well. Basically, virtually ALL the primary facilities we connect with the human spaceflight program were constructed from the swamps and beaches and cow pastures and cotton fields in the southern US during the build up for Project Apollo... that's a LOT of infrastructure, and infrastructure costs a LOT of money! Given the fact that all that construction was going on, along with all the support systems development (the Deep Space Network was undergoing substantial improvement and increase in capabilities to allow communications with the Apollo vehicles in lunar orbit and on the surface of the Moon... Plus considerable development and support program funding was going at the Jet Propulsion Laboratory in California, to develop the needed support roles of the unmanned space program's Ranger, Surveyor, and Lunar Orbiter projects in support of Project Apollo.

What does it all mean?? Well, considering the amount of development going on for facilities and infrastructure and support programs, even with 3X the current budget, the actual money being spent on the development of the actual Saturn flight vehicles in design and testing, probably was broadly on par with what is currently being spent on the development of NASA's SLS today... Remember that the entire Apollo project cost $26 billion dollars, estimated, in early 70's dollars... while inflation would probably make that number 3-4 times higher in today's devalued dollars, remember too that NASA spent 6 years and $9 BILLION dollars on primarily Ares I and Orion development alone, with a tiny fraction going to Ares V early research and development, along with Altair lunar lander before it was canceled (very early in its development). Also note that MOST of the existing infrastructure was to be reused with the Ares I/V and Orion... IOW, during Apollo, NASA was building the equivalent of four major space centers from scratch, and investing considerable money into support programs, suit development, engine development of the F-1 and J-2, development of the lunar lander, systems development, you name it... NONE of which was being done under Constellation... In fact, Constellation was siphoning off funding from aeronautical research and the unmanned program to support its own bloated expenses and schedule delays...

One other thing is RADICALLY different about today's NASA versus that during Apollo-- Apollo was done before NASA became a bloated bureaucracy that it is today... before the entrenched power bases that are present today got into the positions that they presently hold, which is where they're now actually dictating what technology gets "reused" on the new programs whether it makes sense for the long term or not... what centers and contractors get what jobs to keep the political players and their power bases happy... Oh, make no mistake-- there were plenty of political games going on back then as well... the choice of putting the Manned Spacecraft Center in Houston, of all places, which at the time had basically ZERO ties to the aeronautical manufacturing and design establishment, but which happened to be located in the Space Program's biggest political powerhouse's state (that being, Lyndon Baines Johnson) was widely and correctly in no small part perceived as being a mostly politically motivated move, and one which the Manned Spaceflight Task Group charged with designing and overseeing Apollo was NOT thrilled with...) The choices of contractors also was coming under more scrutiny by the time the Apollo contracts were let and there were some pretty egregious decisions made that a lot of folks called into question, but basically it was all "child's play" compared to the present entrenched bureaucratic system of corporate lobbyists, mega-contractors, and political players...

The other thing is, it seems patently rediculous that it's going to cost, by most estimates, in the neighborhood of $36 BILLION dollars to take the EXISTING shuttle technology, engines, tankage, and boosters, and create a new "inline" design for the next heavy lift shuttle-derived vehicle which is supposed to fulfill that role for the next 30 years... While part of that is for "infrastructure CHANGES and SOME new equipment (like the Ares I MLP/tower, which was scheduled for demolition after the cancellation of Ares I, and is now going to be heavily modified at considerable cost for SLS) and some is for new tooling, neither the Constellation program NOR SLS had to bear the burden of infrastructure development costs that had to be borne during Project Apollo... quite apart from the actual Saturn Vehicle design, development, testing, and evaluation costs...

That is a BIG part of what's wrong with NASA... and sadly, fixing THAT problem is a lot more than even the brilliant engineers in NASA and industry are capable of fixing...

Later! OL JR :)
 
OK...the LES is on!
000_0291a.jpg000_0292a.jpg000_0293a.jpg

now, I will come back later today to paint the tip of the tower, I think that is the Qball?, a flat steel
 
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Rick ,your work is truly amazing ,I mean really...that is true craftsmanship :handshake:

I just keep looking at the pictures ,and then must realize the size and scale you are working with.......

WOW, no kidding !

You might want to purchase a new loveseat or leather Lay-Z-Boy just to display this one all by itself !

Yours sincerely


Paul T
 
OK....while the LES tower was drying....I took the booster out of storage...literally...I set it aside in my little closet here for the past week or so so that I would not blemish the tanks. It is really easy to put a smudge or something on the tanks. I really didn't take any pictures of the steps that I did today because they are pretty much self explanatory. So in the one picture attached, you'll see that I attached the S-IVb cable tunnels that I had made previously, put the decals on the S-IVb, added the ullage motors, APUs and radio panels etc...I think Luke calls these the greebles...its just the assorted little details as we wrap up this build up here. At this point, she has 2 coats of Krylon Krystal clear on and is drying in my garage. After this, its simply attaching the chute and launch lugs pretty much, and some odd touch ups that I might find. I have also made some decals for the S1C stage (they just say SA-205...identify the booster for this mission, these went on the black tanks) and I needed to get the Krystal clear on before I can apply them to my rolled paper tanks.


the one thing about this kit when you get to the decals...work with care! they like to roll up on you and are not of the best quality...but they are good enough!! Hope to post more pictures shortly, but I am done for the day up here until this dries completely (and I have stunk up the house with the Krylon ...:eyeroll:)

000_0295a.jpg
 
thanks Paul! yes...the Zooch 1b is about 17.5" tall when she is all done and some of the parts do get pretty small....I think the best pictures that sum up the scale of some of these assemblies are these two:

000_0268a.jpg000_0249a.jpg

but that is what made this build even more fun! I don't think anything I did was difficult actually, just takes a little patience. Honestly, my goal for this build was to try to add some extra detail for each "assembly"....the engines, tanks, inter stage, LM transition, CM/SM and LES....I think that is from the bottom of the rocket to the top...and to try to keep the costs involved to a minimum. Somewhere I read where Wes was talking to another rocket producer and Wes described the other mans rockets, which were much larger and detailed (and far more expensive...my words, not Wes's) as leather bound volumes and that his were paperback volumes...I was simply trying to spruce this paperback volume up a bit. I think between the various pin stripe tape and the evergreen rods for the tower the total cost of all of that is less than $20...and thanks to Rosko Racer, some neat 1b wraps!!.... Now, the entire kit only cost $25 which is the great thing about a Zooch kit in my opinion...that is a whole heck of lot of fun in that little box for $25.




Rick ,your work is truly amazing ,I mean really...that is true craftsmanship :handshake:

I just keep looking at the pictures ,and then must realize the size and scale you are working with.......

WOW, no kidding !

You might want to purchase a new loveseat or leather Lay-Z-Boy just to display this one all by itself !

Yours sincerely


Paul T
 
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You guys... I gotta say it... I never EVER thought that anyone would do that much detail work on one of my kits. You folks are amazing.
 
Thanks Wes....I think of all the kits that I have ever made, your Saturn 1b is my favorite. its just a lot of fun to build and fly.

Now...I may have a detailed Saturn 1b...but...mine is NOT signed by Apollo 7's Walt Cunningham like yours!! :jaw:

You guys... I gotta say it... I never EVER thought that anyone would do that much detail work on one of my kits. You folks are amazing.
 
I think Luke calls these the greebles...its just the assorted little details as we wrap up this build up here.
"Greebles" is a term used by model builders in the movie industry, for putting random bits of stuff onto the surface of large film shooting models to add detail and "visual interest" to the model so it looks more realistic on screen... I've read the term was coined by the ILM guys that were building the models of the Star Wars ships and the Death Star surface in the original film... that model was like 20 feet long IIRC... I heard that the ILM guys bought up every battleship and tank and warplane model they could get their hands on around the local areas to have lots of "fiddly bits" to glue onto their models to "greeble" them for filming...

Technically speaking, greebles don't have to serve any realistic purpose... often they're just radom bits of stuff from kits, various shapes from panels to gun turrets to sections of tank track or bits of treads or gun barrels or what-have-you, glued to the surface in varying patterns to create a somewhat flowing and "functional looking" surface... makes stuff look more "real"...

In the purest sense, the details on our models aren't "greebles" since they represent parts that served a real, functional purpose-- but then, OTOH, they don't actually "work" on our models, so it could be argued therefore that they are "just greebles" on the model rocket since they don't actually help it fly...

Just sayin'... :)

I have also made some decals for the S1C stage (they just say SA-205...identify the booster for this mission, these went on the black tanks) and I needed to get the Krystal clear on before I can apply them to my rolled paper tanks.

Think you meant "S-IB" first stage... S-IC was 33 feet in diameter and about 140 feet long or thereabouts IIRC, and had five F-1 engines... :)

Just sayin'... :)
Later! OL JR :)
 
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