R140: NAR S & T New Motor Certification

[billspad]

The following motor has been certified by NAR Standards & Testing for
general use as a Model Rocket Motor effective November 25, 2012.




*************************************
Estes:


F15-0,4,6,8
29mm x114mm
49.61 Newton-seconds Total Impulse
25.26 Newtons Peak Thrust
14.38 Newtons Average Thrust


Propellant mass: 60.0 grams


*************************************

View attachment ESTES F15.pdf

 

[The Rocket Kid]

hoorah!!!,
is this what that other thread in the watering hole was about?

 

[n3tjm]

I am so excited that this is finally announced. . Now I got to build a rocket that can stage a F15-0 to F15-8. Going be so much fun .

 

[cwbullet]

Great fun for all. Hopefully, low catoes

 

[GregGleason]

Wow!

Way to go Estes!

Greg

 

[Gus]

Bill,

Contest certified?

Steve

 

[CarVac]

That's a rather slow buildup to maximum thrust... I was intrigued about trying it in my L1 cert rocket, but there's noooooway that it would get off the rod at a reasonable speed.

 

[billspad]

Bill,

Contest certified?

Steve

They can't be contest certified until they're generally available. As far as I know you can't buy them yet. The only reason the announcement was made is that the S & T procedure is to announce certification no more than 30 days after the motors were certified. I should have done the announcement a couple of weeks ago but the holidays got in the way.

 

[Gus]

Thanks, Bill.

Steve

 

[GregGleason]

Bill, what does the "R140" mean?

Greg

 

[n3tjm]

Great fun for all. Hopefully, low catoes

Generally speaking, the bigger the BP motor, the greater the chance of cato. However, 50 n/s with 60 grams of BP seems kinda low to me (unless the 60 grams includes the delay element), so maybe they reduced pressure to decrease the chance of a cato?

 

[JordanT]

Woah, a 29mm black powder? That's interesting in itself. Might be a fun one to fly with than 3.5 second burn time. I can see getting a pack of these to put in my 29mm-converted Eliminator.

 

[DaveCombs]

Bill: Can you give us more info about this motor?

• Estes-made or relabeled like the ones they get from AT?
• Paper or plastic case?
• BP or AP?
• What kind of igniter comes with it?
• Got a thrust curve we can see?

Only what Estes allows you to say, of course.

Thanks!

 

[JumpJet]

Now that this information is out I can add the following. Except for the Mega Dear Red Max these BP F engines fly all of the new Pro Series 2 rockets just fine. I've flown models up to 24 ounces with these engines and they all flew perfect. I have even flown two stage rockets with just one problem, if you fly from a small field you may not get the upper stage back.


John Boren

 

[CarVac]

Bill: Can you give us more info about this motor?

• Estes-made or relabeled like the ones they get from AT?
• Paper or plastic case?
• BP or AP?
• What kind of igniter comes with it?
• Got a thrust curve we can see?

Only what Estes allows you to say, of course.

Thanks!

Read the PDF in the first post. It's BP, and there's a thrustcurve.

 

[DaveCombs]

Missed that - my eyes must be going...

 

[GregGleason]

Now that this information is out I can add the following. Except for the Mega Dear Red Max these BP F engines fly all of the new Pro Series 2 rockets just fine. I've flown models up to 24 ounces with these engines and they all flew perfect. I have even flown two stage rockets with just one problem, if you fly from a small field you may not get the upper stage back.


John Boren

John,

Regarding packaging and cost: My assumption is that this will be a single-packaged item. Is that correct? Igniter included?

Also, can you release the MSRP for the motor?

Greg

 

[JumpJet]

I wont go into how it's going to be package except for the fact it uses our standard Solar Igniter and Plugs, which will be included with the motors.


John Boren

 

[cerving]

Does this motor use a standard cylindical paper case, i.e. requiring a thrust ring in the engine mount, or is there some kind of retention flange like on the AP motors? I'm assuming that if it's the latter the standard Estes 29mm motor retainers would work.

I wont go into how it's going to be package except for the fact it uses our standard Solar Igniter and Plugs, which will be included with the motors.


John Boren

 

[loopy]

Missed that - my eyes must be going...

Well, you ARE getting up there in age...

 

[billspad]

Bill, what does the "R140" mean?

Greg

Release 140

https://www.nar.org/SandT/STchrono.html

 

[chadrog]

F15 - blah. F25ish, different story.

 

[KennB]

hoorah!!!,
is this what that other thread in the watering hole was about?

BTW, you can see from the pdf that this was tested in November 2012. The other thread has pictures from a test in January 2013.

Let the games continue. Luke, you don't have to participate if you don't want to.

 

[GregGleason]

Release 140

https://www.nar.org/SandT/STchrono.html

Ahhh... ok thanks.

Greg

 

[MCS]

At one time Aerotech made a 18mm F-55 !!!

and Rocketflite producted a blackpowder H that was pretty nice.

-->MCS


.

 

[n3tjm]

F15 - blah. F25ish, different story.

What do you mean Blah? I can't wait to try this motor. OH, I do believe Estes should produce E60's and F80's (similar to F100's) . An F7 would be fun too

 

[plano-doug]

However, 50 n/s with 60 grams of BP seems kinda low to me (unless the 60 grams includes the delay element), so maybe they reduced pressure to decrease the chance of a cato?

BP has an impulse per unit mass (quasi Isp) on the order of about 0.8Ns per gram. For example, a D12 makes about 17Ns on 21g for a ratio of 0.81. Thus, the F15's 0.83 (50Ns/60g) is reasonably consistent with that.

Doug

.

 

[chadrog]

What do you mean Blah? I can't wait to try this motor. OH, I do believe Estes should produce E60's and F80's (similar to F100's) . An F7 would be fun too

I'd rather see something with a little more average thrust, would make it a more versatile motor.

 

[plano-doug]

I'd rather see something with a little more average thrust, would make it a more versatile motor.

I think most folks will agree with that. But I suspect that the moderate thrust gives better reliability. That is, a high thrust motor would probably be too unreliable for volume production.

That said, I wonder if a fiberglass case would improve on that.

Doug

.

 

[UncleVanya]

I'd rather see something with a little more average thrust, would make it a more versatile motor.

Respectfully - why? There are a ton of composite F's out there and all of them are higher average thrust. The few that are near this motor's average thrust are either unobtainable or have a much shorter burn profile. This motor has a nice spike at the start to get the bird moving and stable and then tapers down to a long burn. It's a dual thrust motor in effect.