Words Can't Express My Disappointment

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I wish I had saved something I wrote a few years ago, and have said a few times.

Because it is coming more, and more true.

If a Washington D.C. “Think Tank” had long-range plan to slowly kill the US manned Space program, they likely could not have come up with a BETTER plan for it than exactly what was planned out.

(snip)

- George Gassaway

Since I found nasaspaceflight.com several years ago, I've been following the discussions over there about Constellation, Ares, Orion, Altair, and the alternatives proposed in EELV and Direct. I've read EVERY message in the Direct threads-- even though I started over a year and about 300 pages after the thing started... it was SO compelling and I was learning SO much about the tradeoffs and the "this change affects that which causes the other" part of rocket design that I went back and over the course of a week or two read every post, and I've kept up with it ever since.

When I first read of the plans for Constellation, (before it WAS Constellation; it was simply the "VSE" back then) about the CLV "Stick" rocket (it wasn't named Ares I until significantly later) and about the "CaLV" (later called Ares V) and the CEV (later named Orion) and the LSAM (later named Altair), and read all the discussions and back and forth over the reasoning and figures behind the conclusions reached in the ESAS (Exploration Systems Architecture Study) and really dug into it, the more I realized that folks were right-- it was a snow job to "justify" the political decision that became Constellation (Cx) and Ares.

The longer things went on, the more screwed up and expensive it got, the more I realized that it was never gonna happen.

About two years ago I started comparing the EXTREME similarities between the VSE under Bush Jr. and the SEI under Bush Sr.... and projected that unless things changed, they would come to the same end. The same mistakes were being made all over again.

NASA had two "golden opportunities"-- Bush Sr. announces the SEI (Space Exploration Initiative) to build a station, return to the moon, build a moonbase, and eventually travel to Mars, and directs NASA to draw up plans to perform those objectives. NASA Administrator Dick Truly calls for a study, called the "90 Day Study" or "90 Day Report" to determine how best to carry out this mission. They come back with grandiose plans for a shuttle built station in orbit, which will become an orbiting spaceport at which shuttles will construct spacecraft to return to the moon, those craft will receive their crews launched on shuttles and transferred to the moonship, which will then go to the moon, laying the groundwork and finally establishing FLO-- First Lunar Outpost, which will serve as a testbed for the development and perfection of systems and hardware necessary for a Mars mission, which will ultimately be constructed in orbit at the spaceport station by shuttles, and eventually crewed by astronauts brought up by shuttle and launched off toward their rendezvous with destiny at Mars at some point in the future. Only problem was the price tag-- too high. Bush didn't want to propose a program that expensive, and directed the Administrator to pare it back. Instead, Truly came back with MORE grandiose plans for long term research programs into the problems of Mars flights conducted in orbit, which of course added to the cost. The Bush Administration again practically begged Truly for a simpler, cheaper plan performed in steps. Truly and his advisors returned an even MORE gradiose plan which was ultimately what was proposed to Congress, utilizing a MASSIVE orbitally-constructed Mars ship which was quickly derided by it's detractors as "Battlestar Galactica" and the whole thing was laughed out of the halls of Congress and allowed to quietly die.

Fast forward... Bush Jr. proposes the VSE, an ambitious plan to replace the space shuttle, service the research on ISS, return to the moon, and culminate into missions to Mars, and directs NASA to draw up plans to achieve those objectives. NASA Administrator Mike Griffin calls for a study to be performed to see the best way forward to achieve those objectives, called ESAS-- the Exploration Systems Architecture Study. Through careful manipulation of the conditions of the study, the questions asked, and the assumptions made, the 'results' justified the 1.5 launch approach, which would have NASA create two entirely new rockets from shuttle parts, one small crew launcher and a much larger cargo rocket, which incidentally was a COMPLETE flip from the direction the program was heading at the time under the former Administrator O'keefe, whom Griffin replaced, which was to fly the shuttle replacement on the EXISTING EELV launchers. Never mind that designing, building, supporting, and flying TWO COMPLETELY DIFFERENT rockets would be FAR more expensive than shuttle, and shuttle was already considered widely to be "too expensive" and that existing launchers could do the job of the proposed crew launcher, the plans went ahead. Unforeseen problems daisy-chained and compounded, requiring expensive changes that morphed the project into something horrifically expensive, dangerously underpowered, breathtakingly past-schedule, and required almost as much change as starting completely from scratch, with NONE of the benefits of a clean sheet design, or even any of the perceived benefits of making the best reuse of what we already have available as heritage shuttle components and systems.

Sound familiar??

As soon as I had an understanding of the ramifications, like 3 years ago or so, I said publically I thought that if they wanted a cargo launcher from shuttle parts, then BUILD a cargo launcher from shuttle parts-- skip Ares I and go straight to Ares V... put the crew capsule on the EELV, and let NASA go straight to the SDLV cargo rocket... for one thing, Ares I was SURELY going to be more expensive than what they thought... as ALL aerospace stuff ultimately is. Secondly, it was going to be later than anticipated-- delays are the norm in aerospace. Thirdly, the budget was NOT going to be increased, and once the costs of the first rocket were known, and it was completed (if they were lucky) the more expensive cargo rocket would be cancelled, (since it would SURELY BE MUCH MORE EXPENSIVE THAN THE FIRST (crew) ROCKET) , and without the cargo rocket we would be going NOWHERE and doing NOTHING, except flying a stripped down capsule to a space station (Skylab on steroids instead of Apollo on steroids, or as I called it, "APOLLO ON VIAGRA")

Now here we are several years later, and that's EXACTLY what has taken place, and is occurring... NASA is most likely being directed to put the crew onto the EELV's after upgrading them, and to move onto the development of the cargo rocket using shuttle parts, to keep as many of the shuttle people employed as possible after the shuttle program shuts down.

I could have saved the country 9 BILLION DOLLARS... :D

Oh well... OL JR :)
 
China has announced a timetable for manned missions out of LEO and they are doing well. Very determined well funded folks. India has announced it will soon make a manned launch. The Russian continue to send soyuz up and down like elevators.
America now will buy a taxi and then pay for its use to LEO assuming it goes well. Kind of reminds me of how the Chinese explored a great deal of the world earlier then columbus. They then burned the ships and forgot about it. Talk about your missed opportunities. All this capital both monetary and human thrown to the wind it seems. I suspect the europeans will reexamine manrating a vehicle for Arianne V as they find partnerring long term with the Russians difficult given the political winds. ESA did refuse to fund the Russian Clipper program. For those celebrating the demise of manned space so robots get to do real science start thinking again as sooner or later "practical thinkers" will probably opt for just earth observation missions as why pay for martian weather reports? The loss of Government funded manned space is IMO a disaster for human progress ad a whole. I suspect others will pick up the slack and reap the same benefits of technology hope and human capital created by Apollo and its predecessors.
Cheers
Fred
 
1) Low cost Mars trip: Sit (float) in a VW bug for a year with three other people.

2) High cost Mars trip: Sit (float) in an RV for a year with three other people.

I would choose option 2.
 
Then you probably ought not to listen to that radio show anymore.

$2.5 trillion was the national debt when Daddy Bush came INTO office in 1988.
At the end of fiscal 2005 it was $8 trillion.

At the risk of swerving,

The President can't spend any money. That power resides in the House of Representatives. The ones we keep reelecting every 2 years!

Sorry but put the blame where it belongs.

Now back to your regularly scheduled forum.
 
At the risk of swerving,

The President can't spend any money. That power resides in the House of Representatives. The ones we keep reelecting every 2 years!

Sorry but put the blame where it belongs.

Now back to your regularly scheduled forum.

So true, but the president has considerable influence since it is the executive branch that prepares the budget. What the Congress eventually approves is usually not that far from what the White House requested (except the distribution can be quite different).

Also, note the 1995 budget standoff as an example of executive influence over legislative spending/cutting.
 
Well after reading the spirited debate in this thread it seems that Constellation had to go. The question now of course is where does NASA go from here? I'd like to see the ISS used for some research on extracting metals from meteorites in vacuum and microgravity. Does anyone know of any source of info on this subject? Ted
 
Well after reading the spirited debate in this thread it seems that Constellation had to go. The question now of course is where does NASA go from here? I'd like to see the ISS used for some research on extracting metals from meteorites in vacuum and microgravity. Does anyone know of any source of info on this subject? Ted
You can't collect meteors. The average velocity of a meteor is between 20 km/s to 50 km/s. https://www.atmos-chem-phys-discuss.net/4/1247/2004/acpd-4-1247-2004-print.pdf The energy in a 1 kg meteor is between 200 Megajoules to 1.25 Gigajoules, the equivalent of energy release from an explosion of between 48 kg to 299 kg of TNT! If a 1 kg meteor impacted ISS it would be destroyed, so that's why all space craft avoid space debris impacts.

Microgravity experiments are easily googled, and NASA should have quite a number of papers on the subject.

Bob
 
not being smart enough to shut up and sit on the sidelines...

Manned Space, has the industry gotten to the point where commercial (real commercial) service providers can take care of it. The analogy that I think of is the early air mail service. The Government gave out mail delivery contracts, these spawned designs, concepts of operations, and a threshold business base to aircraft manufactures and airlines. Should 'delivery' to the ISS follow the same path? Wouldn't this foster the industry and help make pragmatic decisions? I think so. Boeing signed it's first mail contract in 1927 to deliver mail from Chicago to San Francisco, not build the hardware but to deliver the mail, they figured out the plane based on the mission and the cost.

Mission (1), As a kid I grew up watching space launches (actually saw one in person at the Cape), today I design parts for aircraft and spacecraft. If the goal (or one of the goals) of Nasa is to spawn kids to get into space, there are lots of ways to do that where the 'touch labor' is spread out. If so, this needs to be a structured plan with the ROI based on a long term payback. Sell it for what it is.

Mission (2), Have NASA work on things that don't have short term commercial payoff but are important to do, (qualifying important is tough) some examples are asteroid deflection, planetary exploration, aviation advancements, and education (see mission 1). These all have the possibility of lower cost spiral development, where a core group works on them continously, implementing new ideas or technology with out the typical ballistic arc of the development cycle.

Consistency, with out consistency, cost, and resources (including people) will be squandered. Have a minimum of a 5 year plan. With the plan comes accountability, schedule it realistically, budget in cost due to lower TRL vs higher TRL technology. Use smaller risk reduction goals build over time (see spiral development Mission 2) and don't be afraid to kill off a dead end early.


FWIW
 
Mission (1), As a kid I grew up watching space launches (actually saw one in person at the Cape), today I design parts for aircraft and spacecraft. If the goal (or one of the goals) of Nasa is to spawn kids to get into space, there are lots of ways to do that where the 'touch labor' is spread out. If so, this needs to be a structured plan with the ROI based on a long term payback. Sell it for what it is.

NASA does have a significant effort to "spawn kids to get into space", or at least to get young people involved in aerospace science and technology. It's called the "Space Grant Consortium", an effort established in the late 1980s:

https://www.nasa.gov/offices/education/programs/national/spacegrant/home/index.html

It funds individual grants and scholarships for work aligned with NASA objectives, and strongly encourages cooperation between education and industry. For example, here in Wisconsin there are 23 colleges taking part, as well as space-oriented industry participants like Aerogel, Astronautics, and Orbital Technologies Corp. (and it's not token participation: programs have hands-on work by both students and the industry reps). AIAA, the state Department of Transportation, and the Experimental Aircraft Association also all have active memberships.

Student involvement reaches all the way down to elementary school, with funding of teachers to do space science and technology projects with their kids, and up to graduate school with funding of (for example) doctoral level astronomy projects, projects about the physiology of human spaceflight, and so on. One high school teacher was funded to work with his students to build a kit plane (yes, a real one - single seat, flyable). I received a couple of grants a couple of years ago to work with students to learn to build electronic instruments to fly in high power rockets. Just yesterday I finished and ground tested my first GPS locator board, using what I learned while working with students on those grants. I'm working with a student this semester on an environment measurement project, also based on what I got from those grants. NASA also funded our GIS course, run by a faculty member in our Environmental Sciences program, so the value of space science to environmental sciences must be obvious to anyone other than the most dedicated hater of the space program.

I've been a reviewer for grant and scholarship applications, and while I thought there was some variation in quality, what we wound up funding was work that I think people here would be glad to know is being funded. Of course funding could be better, but it looks to me as though there are good opportunities for students who are interested, and sufficiently well-prepared (that is, have good basic math and science backgrounds). The problem, sadly, is finding those students.
 
Well, you can if they're microscopic! :) Here's a plug https://stardustathome.ssl.berkeley.edu/ for one of the projects at work.
Micrometeors yes, stardust if you will, but nothing sizable that you could "easily" process.

The impact of even a a milligram dust particle still packs a wallop: 200 Joule to 1250 J. To put this into perspective that's even equivalent range to a the muzzle energy of a 22 Hornet to a lightly loaded 44 mag!

Only when you get to the microgram size dust can you capture the dust where the energy is 0.2 to 1.25 Joule range.

Bob
 
You can't collect meteors. The average velocity of a meteor is between 20 km/s to 50 km/s. https://www.atmos-chem-phys-discuss.net/4/1247/2004/acpd-4-1247-2004-print.pdf The energy in a 1 kg meteor is between 200 Megajoules to 1.25 Gigajoules, the equivalent of energy release from an explosion of between 48 kg to 299 kg of TNT! If a 1 kg meteor impacted ISS it would be destroyed, so that's why all space craft avoid space debris impacts.

Microgravity experiments are easily googled, and NASA should have quite a number of papers on the subject.

Bob

What I'm talking about is bringing landed meteorites to the space station to experiment with metals extraction techniques as a precursor to asteroid mining. Smelting on Earth involves the reduction of metals from sulphides or oxides mostly using oxygen and gravity plus heat or the dissolution of these ores in acid and using electricity to reduce the metals. Neither method would be practical in space or the surface of an asteroid.
The (mostly) nickel-iron content of metal rich bodies is generally present as masses or grains and not in oxidized forms. Simply melting the space rocks could produce metals if techniques are developed to efficiently separate it from the host pyroxenes and silicates. Could the purification techniques of electro-smelting be adapted for micro-gravity and or vacuum conditions?
What heat sources would feasible and efficient for the process? Solar mirrors or nuclear? What about vessels for heating and processing? Hazards and mitigation strategies?
The answers to these questions are crucial for making an economic case for continued exploration and exploitation of space. I believe in a decade or two the easily available mineral deposits in the third world will be exhausted and the demand for metals will make it conceivable to get them from NEO's if the costs are well known in advance.
The nation or corporations that are first in extra-terrestrial mining could be the new Saudi Arabia in terms of wealth. The possibilities for structural metals made in orbit could be almost endless...America is still in the unique position of worldwide technological and economic leadership. For now. A project approaching the Manhattan Project in scale would be best but anything would be a start. As a beginning how about launching an oven for the ISS "porch" and observe how the materials behave in micro-gravity. Ted
 
What I'm talking about is bringing landed meteorites to the space station to experiment with metals extraction techniques as a precursor to asteroid mining. Smelting on Earth involves the reduction of metals from sulphides or oxides mostly using oxygen and gravity plus heat or the dissolution of these ores in acid and using electricity to reduce the metals. Neither method would be practical in space or the surface of an asteroid.
The (mostly) nickel-iron content of metal rich bodies is generally present as masses or grains and not in oxidized forms. Simply melting the space rocks could produce metals if techniques are developed to efficiently separate it from the host pyroxenes and silicates. Could the purification techniques of electro-smelting be adapted for micro-gravity and or vacuum conditions?
What heat sources would feasible and efficient for the process? Solar mirrors or nuclear? What about vessels for heating and processing? Hazards and mitigation strategies?
The answers to these questions are crucial for making an economic case for continued exploration and exploitation of space. I believe in a decade or two the easily available mineral deposits in the third world will be exhausted and the demand for metals will make it conceivable to get them from NEO's if the costs are well known in advance.
The nation or corporations that are first in extra-terrestrial mining could be the new Saudi Arabia in terms of wealth. The possibilities for structural metals made in orbit could be almost endless...America is still in the unique position of worldwide technological and economic leadership. For now. A project approaching the Manhattan Project in scale would be best but anything would be a start. As a beginning how about launching an oven for the ISS "porch" and observe how the materials behave in micro-gravity. Ted
Ted

This type of research has been on going for more than 2 decades.

https://www.isruinfo.com/ The Space Resources Roundtable Research website

https://isru.msfc.nasa.gov/ NASA Home for In-Situ Resource Utilization

My company, Physical Sciences Inc., has been actively been involved in a number of projects involving melting metals in zero gravity with lasers, and generating oxygen in-situ on the moon using solar furnaces. This week PSI researchers are at the summit of Mauna Kea participating in a demonstation of a solar powered lunar surface sintering system PSI developed under a NASA contract. See attached photos from Mauna Kea, Hawaii.

PSI Research Papers and Presentation on Oxygen Production from Lunar
Regolith Processing and other related topics.

https://www.psicorp.com/research/space_exploration.html

https://www.psicorp.com/library/publication_cat.html?pid=478

https://www.psicorp.com/library/presentation_cat.html?pid=262

Bob

PSI solar concentrator-small.JPG

PSI lunar heating experiment.JPG

PSI sintered lunar simulant.JPG
 
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1) Low cost Mars trip: Sit (float) in a VW bug for a year with three other people.

2) High cost Mars trip: Sit (float) in an RV for a year with three other people.

I would choose option 2.


Hmmmmmmmmm
Not an easy choice.
What color carpet does the RV have?
 
It comes down to this-the other day I told my other half to remember Apollo well, because men won't walk on the moon again in her or my lifetime. (I'm 49).
I hope this can be considered non-political, as I'm outside the arena.
JFK is remembered for something.
Now we know what your current President will be remembered for.
 
The second that last shuttle mission lands, we will go from the #1 space faring nation in the world to #3. :(
 
The second that last shuttle mission lands, we will go from the #1 space faring nation in the world to #3. :(

I think that assessment is overly generous.

Not sure of the order after the first one but these would all need to be considered...

Russia
China
India
France

and possibly a few others.
 
I think that assessment is overly generous.

Not sure of the order after the first one but these would all need to be considered...

Russia
China
India
France

and possibly a few others.

Throw in the ESA as a "country" and it makes it even worse.
 
Te
This type of research has been on going for more than 2 decades.

https://www.isruinfo.com/ The Space Resources Roundtable Research website

https://isru.msfc.nasa.gov/ NASA Home for In-Situ Resource Utilization

My company, Physical Sciences Inc., has been actively been involved in a number of projects involving melting metals in zero gravity with lasers, and generating oxygen in-situ on the moon using solar furnaces. This week PSI researchers are at the summit of Mauna Kea participating in a demonstation of a solar powered lunar surface sintering system PSI developed under a NASA contract. See attached photos from Mauna Kea, Hawaii.

PSI Research Papers and Presentation on Oxygen Production from Lunar
Regolith Processing and other related topics.

https://www.psicorp.com/research/space_exploration.html

https://www.psicorp.com/library/publication_cat.html?pid=478

https://www.psicorp.com/library/presentation_cat.html?pid=262

Bob

Thanks for the links Bob! I'll know what I'll be reading tonight. Ted
 
I think that assessment is overly generous.

Not sure of the order after the first one but these would all need to be considered...

Russia
China
India
France

and possibly a few others.

Let's put this into some perspective.
India and France have not launched their own manned spacecraft that they designed themselves. China manned spacecraft was a design the Russians gave them. If China had to design one from scratch they probably would not have a manned craft even today. Now it's been fifty (50) years, half a centuary, since the Russians and the US launched their first men into space. Since then each one (US and Russia) has designed and built follow up craft with bigger capacity. There have been times when both space programs of US and Russia have windows where manned launches were stopped as new craft were tested or problems involving older designs were corrected or updated. So the US is not dropping off the real manned space list (there are only two really US and Russia), we haven't all of a sudden lost because a short term hiatus in the manned program. It will return in few years (as long as the economy doesn't do a major double dip which could lead to a 1930's style depression in which case we'll have much more serious problems than a short term hiatus in manned space flight).
 
Let's put this into some perspective.
India and France have not launched their own manned spacecraft that they designed themselves. China manned spacecraft was a design the Russians gave them. If China had to design one from scratch they probably would not have a manned craft even today. Now it's been fifty (50) years, half a centuary, since the Russians and the US launched their first men into space. Since then each one (US and Russia) has designed and built follow up craft with bigger capacity. There have been times when both space programs of US and Russia have windows where manned launches were stopped as new craft were tested or problems involving older designs were corrected or updated. So the US is not dropping off the real manned space list (there are only two really US and Russia), we haven't all of a sudden lost because a short term hiatus in the manned program. It will return in few years (as long as the economy doesn't do a major double dip which could lead to a 1930's style depression in which case we'll have much more serious problems than a short term hiatus in manned space flight).

I hope it is short term, but if he succeeds with the budget cuts, I have a feeling it will take a very long time for USA based manned flight to recover, regardless of the economy. Meanwhile, Russia and China will keep putting people in orbit, regardless of where the technology came from.
 
Well after reading the spirited debate in this thread it seems that Constellation had to go. The question now of course is where does NASA go from here? I'd like to see the ISS used for some research on extracting metals from meteorites in vacuum and microgravity. Does anyone know of any source of info on this subject? Ted

No offense, but both those lines of research are absolutely pointless...

It's been proven by economic analysis that the costs of spaceflight are so high, that asteroids and other Near Earth Objects could be made of pure platinum returnable to Earth in massive quantities simply picked up from the surface of such objects would STILL be much much higher in cost than similar metals obtained from usual sources here on Earth. As Bob said, the energy requirements to reach station keeping speeds with such objects is a whole other realm of exploration, which supposedly is part of the 'plan' (if you can justify using that word for the proposals out there) going forward (NEO missions).

Microgravity research... please... :rolleyes: How long are we going to continue beating that dead horse?? We've been doing microgravity research since the early 70's-- on Skylab and shuttle, the Soviets and then Russians conducted TONS of microgravity research from the early 70's on aboard their Salyut and later Mir space stations, and practically wrote the book on microgravity health effects on humans, and mitigation strategies. Now we've had a decade of microgravity research on ISS and a continuation of that microgravity research for another 10 years (at least) until ISS is deorbited.

Wow! How fascinating! The latest cutting-edge microgravity research on ISS proves that astronauts STILL lose 1% bone mass per month in zero gee and have to exercise a minimum of two hours per day to maintain muscle tone. Whaddya know?? The Russians were right in their observations back in 1980! Who'd have thunk it??

Hardly a worthy basis for a multibillion dollar space program!

I like how Robert Zubrin put it in his "Case for Mars"-- conducting a multidecadal microgravity health effects research program is a rediculous waste of time, effort, and funds. It is also unethical to expose astronauts to this *potentially* hazardous condition (microgravity) that could supposedly cause irreparable damage to their health, merely to conduct research as 'orbiting guinea pigs' merely to determine whether such damage is occurring or not. Far better to simply conduct the mission (to Mars) which this 'research' is supposedly being conducted to confirm or deny deleterious health effects from microgravity, than to be exposed to the same supposedly harmful effects long term in earth orbit while accomplishing NOTHING but the research itself.

In other words, if you're going to risk bad health effects from long term microgravity, better to take those risks actually doing an amazing Mars mission than take the same risks doing repetitive and unnecessary "research" in Low Earth Orbit! When Zubrin pointed this out to some NASA types when "Mars Direct" was in fashion, he was overruled, because 'vested interests' want thier pet project microgravity studies to be funded for decades, IE research grants that will keep them employed for the rest of their career until they're ready to retire.

Besides, IF they truly believed that microgravity was SUCH an intractible issue, they'd be doing research on artificial gravity (centrifugal rotation of spacecraft) and related issues with coriolis effects rather than endlessly making bone measurement and body mass measurements... Since obviously, IF any deep space missions ARE ever attempted and microgravity is a concern, some form of artificial gravity by spinning the spacecraft will be the most likely form of mitigation. Yet THIS form of microgravity research is being largely ignored, to wit the cancellation of the centrifuge on ISS...

Total waste of time, effort, and money, IMHO... OL JR :)
 
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Luke,

Microgravity research on humans would seem to be as advanced as we need.

My assumption was that the question was directed to Non-human testing and research into things like drugs, metals, etc. The crystalline growth structure of turbine blades is extremely important and while it is advanced, the failure rate remains high. Could production of turbine blades in space be more reliable? Result in higher quality blades? Allow for the development of hypersonic aircraft? Can superior alloys be made? Can advances in silicon wafer production be made in low-g?

While still far from a factory production environment, I would be curious what sorts of serious science can be advanced that might eventually prove to be economically desirable/profitable or just otherwise impossible in the presence of gravity.

Maybe this has already been tested and decided but if so, I haven't heard the results.
 
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