What Ever Happened with Digital TV?

[MKP]

My experience with cable (with some notable exceptions) is that its the same quality as network TV, just more of it. If three channels aren't worth watching, cable has 50 that aren't worth watching. My problem is that I watch too much with the few channels I get. Paying too much to watch even more is just bad math/economics.

I might be interested if they ever offered ala carte formats and let me pay for only the channels I really wanted. Then I might consider stuff like History channel, etc.

I'm certainly not saying that I like everything on cable or satellite, but there is very little on network that I like. Seems like its all gone over to "American Idol" type crap.

But I do enjoy The Discovery Channel family, The History Channel and the Food Network. Of course, there are many, many channels I don't want anything to do with like MTV.

 

[RimfireJim]

Technically, I said that the satellite/cable channels have no value to me, not that I think network TV is worth watching. Getting the local stations at least gets me PBS, and gets my wife off my case. We can tune in a local channel when "something big" happens (around here, that usually means a wildfire or an earthquake), I can watch "Jeopardy" once in a while if I want to feel like a loser , and, IMHO, the quality of documentaries on PBS, such as "NOVA" and "American Experience", are better than what I've seen on Discovery Channel and the History Channel.

I'd be happy without any TV reception in the house, but my wife wouldn't. I spent the majority of my formative years without TV, and I think that was for the better. Watching TV is non-creative and non-social. These days, I have plenty of things to occupy my free time without spending it in front of the tube. That said, though, I'll admit we do check out quite a few movies from our public library, more than I'd like to admit. Can I get away here with blaming that on my wife?

 

[Pippen]

After watching my digital reception blink on and off again last night I am not a happy camper. The only tv we have upstairs is a little one with rabbit ears and that arrangement has been sufficient for years. Sometimes reception would be a little fuzzy but I could live with that and anyone who couldn't would head to the downstairs tv. Now we have a new tv with supposed improved digital reception and there are times I am looking at a blank screen, and to top it off the few occasions when I want to copy I can't.

 

[bobkrech]

Lisa

I think that going to be a problem for about half the over the air viewers due to the single carrier high frequency bit stream modulation method used in American DTV.

With an analog TV, if the atmospheric attenuation increases, you simple receive a weaker signal and get snowy picture, with digital you either get a perfect picture or none at all.

As we mention earlier, the European DTV used a multiple carrier lower frequency bit stream modulation method that is much less affected by water attenuation. Since each data stream is being modulated at a lower rate, the bandwidth of each stream is lower and the inherent S/N is higher. Once the multiple bit streams are demodulated, they are combined into a higher bandwidth signal.

I'm pretty sure this problem was known long ago. Otherwise why would you need https://www.antennaweb.org The solution is to purchase either an amplified indoor antenna, or a larger outdoor antenna. Years ago I purchased a small amplified omnidirectional mobile home antenna for use indoors to replace my rabbit ears. It improved the analog reception, and appears to be necessary for DTV reception. I used to be able to get analog stations up to 50 miles away, but it appears that 20 miles is about the limit for DTV with an amplified indoor antenna. If this observation is correct, you need 5x more signal strength for DTV reception than analog.

Bob

 

[davel]

Bob, I think the problem for many is more one of multipath than signal strength. I'm only about 15 miles from the metro area. I can add 26 dB of attenuation inline with my inside antenna (passive Silver Sensor) before I totally loose the weakest of the local stations. Yet, depending on the weather and wind, there are days that reception is perfect and days when I have so many dropouts that it is almost impossible to watch.

I am convinced it is not a signal strength issue, that leaves multipath. The Silver Sensor works better than a loop or rabbit ears, but does not totally solve the problem. A couple of friends about the same distance from the transmitters, but about 30* different direction, have the same issues.

8VSB s*cks.

 

[bobkrech]

davel

I don't disagree with your comments, however there's lots of real world evidence of DTV "signal loss" in bad weather, heavy rain especially.

In light of your comments, my guess as to real reason for the "DTV signal loss" due to weather effects is signal scattering off raindrops which is basically a multipath phenomom giving rise to a lot of echos, each just slightly different than the next. If you took a power meter and looked at the carrier power, you would not see power attenuation, but if you looked at the phase of the modulation, it would be significantly effected. In the American DTV standard single carrier method, the signal modulation is a few orders of magnitude faster than the multi-carrier European DTV standard. In heavy rain, if the phase of the modulation is spread out to greater than 1/t (the period of the modulation frequency), you loose vitrually all data contained within the carrier. If I'm correct about the scattering, since the European system uses many carriers with a corresponding lower modulation frequency, European DTV shouild be virtually immume to rain.

Bob

 

[DaveHein]

davel,

Do you have mountains, hills or tall buildings in your area that would cause multipath reflections? If the reflection is coming from a specific direction you could aim the antenna so that a null is pointing that way. One feature of the Silver Sensor is that it doesn't have nulls in any direction. This is due to the angling of the antenna elements that give it a more artistic look. Try using a more conventional yagi antenna, and you might be able to cancel out the reflections.

Dave

 

[MarkII]

Every once in awhile my cable-provided TV signal (which has been all digital for quite some time now) has drop-outs, frame freezes and audio loss (the last is the most frequent), which became quite severe for a few hours on a couple of occasions last year. Now I have some idea why that might have happened. I never totally lost the signal, though, except when storms knocked out electrical power in the town that is the local distribution point for cable in our area. I live in a mountainous and heavily forested area, and the terrain produces scores of individual micro-weather systems all throughout our region. Zoning restrictions in the Adirondacks prohibit the construction of very high towers anywhere in the region, or the erection of towers of any height on the peaks of the vast majority of the mountains.

The closest local broadcasters to me are about 75 miles away, and that would probably be too far for an antenna even if the terrain was flat and open. As it is, cable and satellite are our only choices for TV reception. Satellite has its adherents around here (and it's the only option in areas unserved by cable), but due to the sometimes freakish weather that we get, the close proximity of the mountains, and the large, dense expanse of tall trees in nearly every direction, most people around here have their signal piped in on cable.

MarkII

 

[davel]

Do you have mountains, hills or tall buildings in your area that would cause multipath reflections?

No, we are in a fairly flat area (15 mi west of Milwaukee). If I could pin the dropouts to weather, I would say they are most common when it is windy. But then, this time of year there are no leaves on the trees so I don't know what affect that could have.

 

[sandman]

Just a quick update on my digital reception.

I was getting 12 digital TV stations. I live in Michigan so I am a flatlander...not even any hills!

Today was a rainy drizzly day.

LOUSY RECEPTION! Maybe 3 or 4 station would come in but they were spotty at best.

Fortunately analog works and I still get all of my Canadian analog stations.

I'm no expert but I can tell you this. Come June 12th a lot of people are NOT going to be happy with their TV!

This is really stupid. You will only be able to watch TV when it's nice and sunny out...when you should be outside anyway.

 

[Peartree]

I'm no expert but I can tell you this. Come June 12th a lot of people are NOT going to be happy with their TV!

But the cable companies will be VERY happy...

 

[sandman]

But the cable companies will be VERY happy...

The best I can hope for is when Canada changes over to digital they will use the European version.

 

[DaveHein]

Sandman,

Check out https://www.antennaweb.org . Based on your location there is a PBS station 32 miles away, and 5 other stations between 50 to 65 miles away. anntennaweb.org recommends a directional antenna for the 5 farthest stations. Even with an analog channel, it seems like you would have received a snowy picture without a directional antenna.

Dave

 

[sandman]

Sandman,

Check out https://www.antennaweb.org . Based on your location there is a PBS station 32 miles away, and 5 other stations between 50 to 65 miles away. anntennaweb.org recommends a directional antenna for the 5 farthest stations. Even with an analog channel, it seems like you would have received a snowy picture without a directional antenna.

Dave

Dave, thanks but I only had it show me one station 65 miles away. (NBC channel 4) But maybe I'm doing it wrong.

What PBS station did you show?

I currently get two PBS stations one on channel 28 (Flint, MI) and one on channel 19 (Bad Axe, MI)

The Bad Axe station is a big problem 'cause there is a digital channnel 19 out of Canada (SUN TV) which proadcasts from the CN tower. They have an unbelieveably strong signal.

The problem is my digital converter is really really confused! It sees two channel 19's.

 

[davel]

You can also try https://www.tvfool.com

 

[DaveHein]

Dave, thanks but I only had it show me one station 65 miles away. (NBC channel 4) But maybe I'm doing it wrong.

What PBS station did you show?

I currently get two PBS stations one on channel 28 (Flint, MI) and one on channel 19 (Bad Axe, MI)

The Bad Axe station is a big problem 'cause there is a digital channnel 19 out of Canada (SUN TV) which proadcasts from the CN tower. They have an unbelieveably strong signal.

The problem is my digital converter is really really confused! It sees two channel 19's.

The PBS station I found was the one in Bad Axe (there must be an intersting story behind that name ). However, I got the 6 stations by recentering the map toward the west. I didn't realize at the time that this was moving the receiving location also. I went back to antennaweb.com and tried it again. This time it didn't find any digital stations!

I live about 5 miles from the transmitting towers in Austin, so I started out using rabbit ears when I got my HD TV a couple of years ago. However, I found that we would lose the signal just by walking around in the room It appears that the multipath interference caused by reflections off our bodies was enough to scramble the signal. Since then, I put a small yagi in the attic, and I haven't had any problems.

davel, I tried out tvfool.com, and I'm impressed by the amount of detail it provides.

Dave

 

[sandman]

Well, the final results of the digital change is this.

I was getting 12 digital chanels...right up until the time the leaves came on the trees then nothing!

I now only get one digital TV station and that one is from Canada! All of the US station are "unwatchable".

They come in but I get pixilated pictures and maybe...maybe 0ne word out of three, and that's on a clear day.

Rain...fog, high humidity, forget it.

Thank you federal government! I hope you guys enjoy the cash from selling the frequencies you freed up so you could force me into buying cable or a dish.:bangbang:

 

[sj_h1]

Well, the final results of the digital change is this.

I was getting 12 digital chanels...right up until the time the leaves came on the trees then nothing!

I now only get one digital TV station and that one is from Canada! All of the US station are "unwatchable".

They come in but I get pixilated pictures and maybe...maybe 0ne word out of three, and that's on a clear day.

Rain...fog, high humidity, forget it.

Thank you federal government! I hope you guys enjoy the cash from selling the frequencies you freed up so you could force me into buying cable or a dish.:bangbang:

And that was the whole point, sad:bangpan:

 

[ttabbal]

I've actually had very good luck with digital TV. The thing that made the biggest difference was getting a large directional antenna. I use a DB4, I'm about 15 miles from the transmitters and have line of sight, but a silver sensor was getting dropouts on occasion. The DB4 pulls everything in with more than enough signal strength and the directionality helps with the multipath. Put it on the roof for the best results.

Unless you're dropping a lot of cash on one, skip the amplifiers. You are far better off getting a larger antenna than a cheap amp as they tend to introduce noise into the signal. If you have a large antenna and still need more signal, a small pre-amp on the antenna mast is the way to go.

 

[RandyM]

Well, the final results of the digital change is this.

I was getting 12 digital chanels...right up until the time the leaves came on the trees then nothing!

I now only get one digital TV station and that one is from Canada! All of the US station are "unwatchable".

They come in but I get pixilated pictures and maybe...maybe 0ne word out of three, and that's on a clear day.

Rain...fog, high humidity, forget it.

Thank you federal government! I hope you guys enjoy the cash from selling the frequencies you freed up so you could force me into buying cable or a dish.:bangbang:

If you were receiving them before the leaves came out, the signal was making it to you. Sounds like you may just need a higher gain antenna. How far away are you from the transmitters? Are they all in the same direction? If not, a roter may also be needed. Check out this page:

https://www.antennacraft.net/48Bay.html

I'll be the U4000 would work for you.

 

[sandman]

I have a 50' tower with a rotor, pre-amp and a powered amplifier in the house.

My point is nothing has changed except the fact that there are now leaves on the trees.

I got the signals before even more when there was an analog signal.

 

[Trident]

[...]
It's still there but you may need a different antenna and the gov'ts not going to help you with that.

Say it ain't so! They are going to give me everything else, aren't they?

 

[brianc]

I got the signals before even more when there was an analog signal.

https://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/28390797/

"...because many television stations will shift their broadcast footprints with the mandatory transition by changing transmitter locations, antenna patterns or power levels. The FCC is not requiring television stations to replicate their analog coverage."

"Some viewers could also lose signals because of what's known as the digital "cliff effect." Unlike analog signals, digital broadcasts either come in clear or not at all, meaning that those on the fringes of analog coverage areas will lose that reception entirely after the transition. Currently, they can still get fuzzy analog signals."

https://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=digital+cliff+effect

From the FCC-
"To check for the DTV signals that are available at your location, use the DTV Reception Maps available at www.fcc.gov/mb/engineering/maps "

 

[davel]

https://www.tvfool.com will give you a good indiction of signal strengths and direction to the transmitter.

 

[shreadvector]

Just in case.....you know that the digital channels/frequencies changed after the analog turn-off. Everyone was supposed to re-scan the channels because what was there one day was moved the next.

i got a converter box for free (OK, I paid only the sales tax), but the content is absolutely worthless. I'm in Los Angeles and there are DOZENS of channels and sub-channels, but unless you are looking for Armenian, Chinese, Korean, Spanish, etc. there is nothing new and exciting.

DirecTV is the way to go.

Just like regular broadcast radio is unlistenable. Switch to Sirius.

 

[Pippen]

I'm pretty sure this problem was known long ago. Otherwise why would you need https://www.antennaweb.org The solution is to purchase either an amplified indoor antenna, or a larger outdoor antenna. Years ago I purchased a small amplified omnidirectional mobile home antenna for use indoors to replace my rabbit ears. It improved the analog reception, and appears to be necessary for DTV reception. I used to be able to get analog stations up to 50 miles away, but it appears that 20 miles is about the limit for DTV with an amplified indoor antenna. If this observation is correct, you need 5x more signal strength for DTV reception than analog.

Bob

OK, I'm really, really cranky over this digital business now. Our downstairs tv that's hooked up to the outdoor antenna is getting in all the usual stations plus some. My small upstairs tv which has always had sufficient reception with rabbit ears can't receive PBS, which is of course about all I would ever want to watch on it. I bought a digital flat amplified antenna at Best Buy yesterday and it seems to be more consistent in receiving the other stations but still no PBS. I checked and my nearest PBS station is 30 miles away.

Any ideas other than getting cable, which my husband doesn't want and we really can't afford right now?

 

[clreynolds]

Any ideas other than getting cable, which my husband doesn't want and we really can't afford right now?

I know we are deep into a long tread, and I have not gone back to review all the post, so maybe I missed this; Why now just add a line splitter and connect both sets to the external antenna?

 

[sandman]

Honestly I've given up on digital TV.

The only digital station I can get is a Canadian one from 200 miles away. It is consistent and ALWAY!!! clear as a bell.

Digital U.S. stations 55 to 60 miles away may come in once every two weeks.

I don't know what U.S, stations are doing buit they are doing it wrong!

I will continue to watch Canadian analog TV.

 

[Pippen]

I know we are deep into a long tread, and I have not gone back to review all the post, so maybe I missed this; Why now just add a line splitter and connect both sets to the external antenna?

We tried that a few years back and wound up with no reception on either tv.

It's only 30 miles away. So much for new and improved technology.

 

[Len_Lekx]

We tried that a few years back and wound up with no reception on either tv.

I did that, when I was living with my folks. Turned out that we also needed a signal-amplifier between the antenna and the splitter.

Worked like a charm, after I did that...