UK BP altitude contest? Interest?

[benjarvis]

I have been thinking about this for a long while... thought I'd post and guage interest before taking it forward...


(apart from Nial who I know will be interested) Would anyone be interested in being involved in a perpetual/rolling Black Powder altitude record competition here in the UK?

Basic rules would be that any commercially available and currently legal BP motors can be used, any number of them in any configuration...

Ten stages with 100 motors per stage if you want

Rocket must carry a commercially made barrometric altimeter and data must be verified and submitted with details of the flight, photos/video etc... as with any UKRA record.


I remember doing some sims.... and I recon that it's actually possible to hit 10,000ft+ with Estes motors if you really think about it....

Makes an interesting and technically challenging competition that (unlike most of the UKRA motor class records) can't be 'bought'... brute force and ignorance won't win it

Open to a wider audience too as BP is invariably cheaper than AP, even in silly clusters, and no licenses needed!


Thoughts?


Ben

 

[WiK]

Sounds good! Just a thought, maybe say keep the total impulse level below L1 impulse level? That way it means *everyone* can take part in it fairly, without being beaten by someone with a L3 cert and a 500D motor SSTO design .

Allready started my entry in anticipation of a one on one competition with Mike: https://www.rocketryforum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=15657


Cheers,

Phil

 

[cydermaster]

I'd be into going for that. Good idea!

Maybe splitting it into sub-classes: single motor, cluster, staged, freestyle, insane etc?

And I'm with WiK on keeping the total impulse below lvl1

 

[andysrockets]

Count me in. I already have a few 8-clusters gathering cobwebs.

Judging by some ideas WiK has had, I think you can count him in too

I doubt that Niall would decline the offer either

There are already the UKRA Race4Space competitions, so would be worth seeing how it fits in with those. One was an all out accumulative altitude, which must be pretty much sealed by 1 person (although with the right money & rocket a single flight can eat a LONG way into that lead). The other was more of an altitude/impulse efficiency competition, which brute force won't win.

Commercially made baro. alt. implies D motors+ or some really mental clusters.
Other point to take into consideration (both Niall & WiK have already come up against this) is that it is rather easy to exceed your Cert Level status.

PS I take it you still have plenty of C motors left over from PK?

 

[andysrockets]

grrr! /me should type faster

 

[WiK]

grrr! /me should type faster

Lol.
I like the sound of the sub-classes idea, but if it has to carry an alt with it, I don't think anything in the Single Engine class will be getting too high. Maybe if the call for mega-l3 clusters is there, could create a L1+, L2+ and L3+ sub-classes too?

Cheers,

Phil

 

[nialloswald]

Glad I checked Ben's posting history, might have missed this!

I've already got a sub-L1 BP flight recorded, I've got videos and altimeter data, will that do.....1643ft is my best so far...hoping to better that at the weekend

I would argue for a sub L1 class and perhaps an 'unlimited' class, that way you can cater for uncerted fliers (like me) and those who want to delve into total cluster insanity (erm, also like me ).

Not sure I want to risk an altimeter on the 18-motor monster that's taking shape at the moment

I don't think anything in the Single Engine class will be getting too high

Don't you believe it - the current UKRA D-class altitude record is 2800ft, on a D12!

I doubt that Niall would decline the offer either

This is right up my street I'll take a whole box of D's of Malcolm next time I see him (I wish!)

BTW, some photos of my ongoing (10 flights now) BP cluster rocket:

https://www.bits.bris.ac.uk/niall/gallery/view_photo.php?set_albumName=rocketphotos&id=etv2fullstack

https://www.bits.bris.ac.uk/niall/gallery/view_photo.php?set_albumName=rocketphotos&id=etv2sustainer

My G-Wiz MC will ride in the sustainer, I'm thinking of setting it up for backup apogee and low alt deployment, in case the sustainer doesn't light.

 

[benjarvis]

Niall... don't go getting all 'stalker' on me dude... checking my post history regularly.... sheesh!


I did think... maybe a 'model' and an 'hpr' sub-category would be an idea...

Sub 160ns it's gonna be a little limited.... though equally challenging... in answer to Andy's comment re: D' minimum to lift commercial altimeters... perhaps Andy has not seen a Perfectflite Micro-alt, Mini-alt or Pico-alt?

Fly on 'A' motors easy peasy and fit in 18mm tubes, or smaller.


And yes, I may happen to have about 80 C6-0's left in a box in my garage... that has nothing to do with this what so ever... move along, nothing to see here


I WAS thinking that this was gonna evolve somewhere down the line of very large 1st stage clusters, possibly fall-away boosters, OTRAG style stages-within-stages, and huge flying zigurats of Estes motors....

I had kinda started with a 13 D12-0 1st stage to 7 D12-0 second stage to a 3 D12-0 third stage to a single E, to a single E, to a C6.

The issue is not getting the power so much... as keeping the drag down, taking off at a safe speed... and the trouble with being limited to a seven second max delay... when you really need more like 15 seconds


Wonder whether it's actually physically possible to push a rocket supersonic using JUST Estes motors? I guess it must be?

With regard to someone with a 160ns vehicle going up against an L3 sized cluster... to be honest, these things don't scale well... it's very much a law of diminishing returns with BP motors... you could easily get to the point where you're adding extra stages of hundreds of motors on the bottom and you're barely adding an extra hundred feet on the eventual altitude.


Hmmmm..... beginning to wish I hadn't started this



Ben

PS: my only reasoning for keeping it to either a single unlimited competition or a model/HPR split is that I wanted there to be a trophy... and trophies aren't cheap

 

[nialloswald]

Niall... don't go getting all 'stalker' on me dude... checking my post history regularly.... sheesh!

Nah, don't worry - I just find TRF harder to get along with than other forums - lack of a tree-view for one thing! Its easy to miss stuff here I find! Your S1B/SV project looks interesting....

Sub 160ns it's gonna be a little limited.... though equally challenging... in answer to Andy's comment re: D' minimum to lift commercial altimeters... perhaps Andy has not seen a Perfectflite Micro-alt, Mini-alt or Pico-alt?

There's at least a few thousand feet to be had from <160Ns BP clusters. My rocket 'ETV2' isn't really optimal, it could be improved for these purposes in many ways (like for example the whole top 2+ft that's just empty space (at the moment), with a lightweight design you could probably get 3kft+

As for ejection delays, if this gets serious there's enough small electronics available that the problem is not insurmountable

I'm tending to think that 3" tube/7 motor cluster is about where it starts to get uneconomical. 2.6" gives you 4 motors, and of course you can save by making clusters of motor tubes etc etc. I quite fancy upscaling the Hydra7 (semroc), would make a nice 7x24mm cluster. Another plan that hatched in my mind was to do a 1/4 scale model of the Gates Brothers 'Porthos 2' - central 38mm H hybrid, 6 outboard E's lit on launch detect.

So many plans....

Wonder whether it's actually physically possible to push a rocket supersonic using JUST Estes motors? I guess it must be?

My gut feeling (based on lots of previous simming) is that with the motors available you run into problems between frontal area and thrust...I'll have to to a quick back-of-the-envelope calculation to work out (for example) what the drag on a 24mm rocket would be at supersonic speed...

Just looking at some designs I've played with, a 4D-1D-1E setup gives over a mile in altitude, max velocity around 215ms-1, so around .6 mach. Looking at the graphs, acceleration of the second stage is zero after the initial peak and the third stage is pretty much constant velocity too. Time to play more...

PS: my only reasoning for keeping it to either a single unlimited competition or a model/HPR split is that I wanted there to be a trophy... and trophies aren't cheap

Could the trophy not be artistically fashioned out of spent BP casings? I've got 1800Ns+ worth in a box upstairs, I've discussed making rocketeer jewelry out of them before!

 

[Karl]

Ohh wow, now you've got me interested!

I would love to take part, I've already got a rocket that hits 1800ft on it's first stage, now to build up the stages and get Rocksim on the taskbar But this could get expencive!

I thought about up-scaling the Hydra too, I've even got a idea on how to make it multy-staged!

Will there be a website, displaying the current entries?

Karl

 

[nialloswald]

I thought about up-scaling the Hydra too, I've even got a idea on how to make it multy-staged!

Dunno what you're thinking but I think recovery on the booster/fin can would be mandatory - no way you want to bring back a 7x24mm cluster w/out a chute. Not just because you might trash it! I think multi-staged or otherwise, it would make a nice upscale. 7 E9's (L1 required) would give you a '210H63' or so, nice motor Of course you could go crazy and bump it up to 7x38mm....Ben, are you listening Shame there's no 29mm's to be had, clustering 7 RATTWorks motors would be ambitious (and expensive) to say the least!

I think I'll finish my stock Hydra first...I'd say clustering 18mm motors is more of a challenge since its harder to get the QM into the nozzles - D12 nozzles were clearly designed to be used with the green stuff Pete sells! Then again I've lit C's off that before, and from the photos it looks like Ben did PK with the same QM.

Anyhow, back on topic....I think anyone who ends up with something model-sized, a la Commance-3 is going to need to invest in a *small* altimeter AND a radio tracker - I wouldn't fancy my chances of seeing a 24mm rocket deploy at 4000ft (for example) - of you ever want to get that altitude you'll need to get the thing back!

The way I see it going is a clash of the heinous clusters vs. the skinny multi-stagers...bring it on

 

[WiK]

For a small alt, I think the Pico P1 (https://www.geocities.com/rdh82000/Picoalt/). I think it works out to around 33 grams with watch batteries. Still undecided about a radio tracker... I'm thinking more at the moment of going with a talc dispenser thingymabob that'll give off a nice powder trail as it descends. Still not sure how to recover it anyway. Hopefully lots of eyes will be following it.
This will be fun!

Phil

 

[nialloswald]

www.traxa.co.uk - the new model fits in an 18mm body tube. I've got one, its very neat. There's lots of tradeoffs to be considered here - mainly between weight and the chance of getting the rocket back!

There's a new, even smaller PicoAlt - could be just the job. There's also the D/D PicoAlt - now that would be nifty

You're right, this will be fun

 

[andysrockets]

Originally posted by nialloswald
The way I see it going is a clash of the heinous clusters vs. the skinny multi-stagers...bring it on

I can see that the UK is gonna be totally dry of ALL motors at this rate, not just AP!

For impressing the crowd value, heinous clusters is the way to go. Skinny rockets are just crying out for Blue Thunder.

 

[Rocketjunkie]

Here's one way to get some altitude. I haven't flown an altimeter but simulations indicate over 3000 feet.

https://www.tripolisc.org/modules/xoopsgallery/cache/albums/album70/Mvi_0253.avi

This is a 4 stage rack rocket, D-D-D-E9.

 

[benjarvis]

Not wanting to give away my plans...but...


The upper stage of any such attempt wants to be min-dia and probably D or E powered I'd think....

But at some stage, you want to use clusters to lift it in order to be able to get MORE stages.

I'd say a three stage D-D-E Comache 3 style vehicle (maybe a little shorter) on top of a seven D to four D cluster booster would be the sort of way to go

Best of both worlds.



Ben

PS: I think you're right Niall... it looks almost impossible to get a rocket to go mach on Estes motors :-(

 

[benjarvis]

He he... just remembered something Marcus did at the IRW in '96...


He built a Comache 5, it was D12 to D12 to C6, to C6 to C6... and it worked too, last stage lit so high we only knew it had lit because we heard it.

IIRC he never got it back



Ben

 

[andysrockets]

I remember Marcus' Com5. I never got mine back either, and that was flown in SS mode. It is still in the thistles between the horse paddock & golf course at IRW.

At HART, Laurie Calvert launched a few D12-D12-D12-D12-D12 rockets. Every one arced over, and was near horizontal when final stage lit. One was found in Tesco's carpark about a mile away, without any RF trackers, because a member of the public saw it drifting in and land.

Re: going supersonic, I remember doing a sim many years ago with Winroc (under windows 3.1). The smallest I could get to sim supersonic was a G-G 2 stager, with the 2nd stage being a G80 iirc. The BlueThunder had just enough thrust to push it through transonic.

Maybe it is possible on smaller motors, but I doubt you could get an Estes much past 0.6 mach with out a helping hand.

 

[Mike]

I'm interested!

 

[benjarvis]

Originally posted by andysrockets
I remember Marcus' Com5. I never got mine back either, and that was flown in SS mode. It is still in the thistles between the horse paddock & golf course at IRW.

At HART, Laurie Calvert launched a few D12-D12-D12-D12-D12 rockets. Every one arced over, and was near horizontal when final stage lit. One was found in Tesco's carpark about a mile away, without any RF trackers, because a member of the public saw it drifting in and land.

Ah yes... Larie's MANY staged D rockets... I remember those

I also remember they only had one HUGE set of fins on the upper most stage IIRC?

That's why you need clusters in the lower stages, you need the extra thrust to keep the thing stable until it stages.

I think you're right that with Estes rockets you hit about 400mph and after that... all that counts is 'cruising time'... the more stages the better...


Hmmm.... I can see this being a popular competition...


Ok, I'm gonna go have a chat to a vendor or two (who sell lots of Estes motors) about sponsoring a trophy for each class, are we all happy that we split it into two...

<160Ns
>160Ns

One trophy for each.

Oh, and I was going to add that although all stages don't have to be returned (doesn't matter if you loose the second from last single D stage for example)... the sustainer, complete with altimeter... must be returned intact, and all stages must recover safely.

Tumble recovery is fine for single D's, possibly even three or four D clusters with big fins... but anything bigger is gonna need a streamer or chute.

And any chad-staged motors should at least have one fin on them... none of this randomly dropping un-retarded spent motor casings all over the shop... Niall ;-)


Ben

 

[andysrockets]

Ben, those rules seem OK to me. Nice and simple, with 2 trophies.

The vendors are going to get a lot of trade, and are going to be cleaned out of motors.

Maybe we can either quantify max no. of motors allowed OR maximum weight allowed per stage for tumble recovery?

 

[cydermaster]

Yep - splitting it into 2 groups like that sounds good

 

[benjarvis]

Ok, here's a PROPER proposal.... feedback greatly appreciated...





The 'Powder Keg' Trophy...

Annual, perpetual, black powder rocket altitude record competition.

Aim:

The aim of this competition is to promote the kind of experimentation and lateral thinking in the design of 'small' rockets, that is normally associated with larger scale altitude record attempts and to provide a competitive arena for those who do not, or cannot hold a license for composite rocket motors, or who'se interest lies in model rocket technology rather than HPR.

Objective:

The objective for anyone wishing to enter the competition is to launch a rocket to the highest possible altitude using ONLY black powder for propulsion, and record that altitude using a commercially available altimeter.

The competition shall be split into two categories which run concurrently and which have seperate trophies. These are:

Rockets of less than 160Ns total impulse (model class) and rockets of ANY total impulse (open class).

Whilst a rocket of LESS than 160Ns can be entered in and win the 'Open' class, a rocket of MORE than 160Ns cannot be entered in the 'Model' class.

Rules:

The trophies for both classes shall be exchanged (if there is a new winner) on November 5th each year, or at a launch event close to that date. Whilst all persons who break the previous record will be recorded, only the person holding the record ON Nov 5th of each year shall take home the trophy for the following year. If a class record is broken more than once within a year, it is the last person to break it before Nov 5th who shall take home the trophy. If the record in either class is NOT broken in a year, the previous winner shall retain the trophy for a further year.

The rockets in any given class shall follow all relevant rules for the rocketry governing body under which the flight is being made, as well as any and all relevant legal requirements.

The rocket does NOT have to be launched in the UK to count, though this is primarily a UK competition and is open only to UK citizens at this stage.

The rocket shall be powered only by rocket motors or propulsive devices utilising Black Powder (gun powder) as propellant. Whatever motor or propulsive device is used must be legal, and commercially available to any and all participants in the competition without any license OTHER THAN a black powder license where necessary. Any motor or propulsive device used must be available and be legal for use within the UK.

Any number of motors may be used in any configuration and in any number of stages so long as the flier can convince the RSO overseeing the flight that the flight can be made safely.

The rocket may be manufactured from any appropriate materials for the class of rocket being built. Model class rockets must conform to normal model rocket construction rules, Open class rockets may conform to normal HPR construction rules.

The rockets must carry a commercially available barometric altimeter which is rated by the manufacturer to be accurate to the altitude the rocket is expected to reach.

If the altimeter used does not have a download facility and outputs peak altitude by visible or audible pulses, then it is recomended that those pulses be recorded in some way (camcorder, tape recorder etc) for verification purposes. If that is not possible then at least two witnesses (ideally officers for a rocketry organisation) should witness and confirm the pulses.

If competition organisers are not at the event to witness a flight, then the altimeter data and/or record of the pulses and/or written statements from the witneses must be provided to the competition organisers for a record to be verified. This should be submitted accompanied by photos of the rocket (ideally including a launch photo or video).

The final stage of the rocket (carrying the altimeter/s) must be recovered intact and in a flyable state (no serious damage) and all other stages must recover in a safe manner, though do not need to be returned. Safety of the recovery of a stage is determined by the RSO overseeing the flight, though this decision can be over-ruled by the competition organisers if discrepencies between RSO's occur.

The decisions of the event organiser/s are final.

The 'Powder Keg' Trophy...

 

[adrian]

I'd suggest that the hand-over of the trophy be done at one of the major UK rocketry events (Big EARS, UKRA, IRW, K-Lob). That way it is more likely that the trophy holder and trophy winner will be in the same place at the same time. Otherwise, can the trophy be sent by post?

The rules look OK to me. Hopefully we'll see some entries at UKRA 2005.

 

[Mike]

Rules look ok to me - making the handover at a large event would be good and it would make sense is the trophy was suitable for posting - ie not huge and really fragile.

 

[WiK]

Rules sound good to me. Also agree with handing over the trophy at a large event too.



Phil

 

[benjarvis]

Just thought Nov 5th was a good plan considering the subject matter And yes, was planning it to be postable if necessary.


Happy to call it K-lob instead if folks think that'd be better... want people to have a full flying season to do it in rather than have the year end mid flying season like the H record comp etc.


Ben

 

[nialloswald]

And any chad-staged motors should at least have one fin on them... none of this randomly dropping un-retarded spent motor casings all over the shop... Niall ;-)

Gah, thats no fun I've got several cool photos with CHAD-staged motors 'peeling off' after staging.

https://www.bobarnott.com/images/Rocketry/EARS/Big_EARS_2004/Scary_Arse_Cluster/tn/0130.jpg.html

I was wondering if it would be possible to rig up something clever with a streamer wrapped round the motor, held tight with some thread which burns through at staging, deploying the streamer. Would that be ok?

Sounds like a good idea, even if the weather's bad at EARS I think I will be stocking up on BP

 

[benjarvis]

Yeah... the streamer thing should work, heard of that sort of thing done before... so long as you make some kind of effort

I have a nice pic of your rocket staging too...

Ben

 

[benjarvis]

And a nice one of it launching for that matter...