The good old days.

[skaffgeorge2]

I'm finding myself waxing nostalgic about the old days of rocketry lately.Looking through the latest Estes catalog seem to leave a lot to be desired.I'm having a hard time getting enthused about anything in it.Back in those days we still had Centuri and Flight Systems,and more lower power motors to choose from.i've always been content with my low power kits.i'm not a high power zealot by any means.Flying high power and certifications have never been an ambition of mine.Can't really afford that any way and don't have the space for it.

 

[bad_idea]

Thrustcurve lists 1 1/4 A motor, 2 1/2 A motors, 6 A motors, 4 B motors, 6 C motors, and 12 D motors as currently available, excluding European and Australian motors and the 20mm Quest motors that aren't actually around anymore. There's not an ideal low-power motor available for every rocket, but 31 motors to choose from (not including MicroMax) doesn't seem all that bad to me, and this is without indulging in the cornucopia of E-G motors.

What I'm nostalgic for is when rocketry was far more mainstream and it wasn't such a hassle to get approval to launch. (I used to launch on an empty corner lot in East Dallas and never thought twice about recovering rockets from strangers' back yards. Quick knock on the door and a polite word if anyone was home, and rocket retrieved.) With the rise of TARC and of university competitions paralleling the increasing public interest in space, I have some optimism this will improve in time, but society now is far more insular and pearl-clutching than it was back then.

Re. high power, if you don't fly it, you can hardly be an HP zealot, but I'm not sure any such creature actually exists. I know some HP flyers with no interest in low power, but none of them are what I'd call zealots in terms of denigrating low power or trying to convince LP flyers that HP is the only way to fly. We all find something that interests us in this hobby, and it doesn't have to be the same thing.

 

[skaffgeorge2]

Thrustcurve lists 1 1/4 A motor, 2 1/2 A motors, 6 A motors, 4 B motors, 6 C motors, and 12 D motors as currently available, excluding European and Australian motors and the 20mm Quest motors that aren't actually around anymore. There's not an ideal low-power motor available for every rocket, but 31 motors to choose from (not including MicroMax) doesn't seem all that bad to me, and this is without indulging in the cornucopia of E-G motors.

What I'm nostalgic for is when rocketry was far more mainstream and it wasn't such a hassle to get approval to launch. (I used to launch on an empty corner lot in East Dallas and never thought twice about recovering rockets from strangers' back yards. Quick knock on the door and a polite word if anyone was home, and rocket retrieved.) With the rise of TARC and of university competitions paralleling the increasing public interest in space, I have some optimism this will improve in time, but society now is far more insular and pearl-clutching than it was back then.

Re. high power, if you don't fly it, you can hardly be an HP zealot, but I'm not sure any such creature actually exists. I know some HP flyers with no interest in low power, but none of them are what I'd call zealots in terms of denigrating low power or trying to convince LP flyers that HP is the only way to fly. We all find something that interests us in this hobby, and it doesn't have to be the same thing.

My intention wasn't to denigrate anyone at all, simply offering up an opinion.what I did want to say is that there was more of a choice for bp motors back when FSI was still operating.All you have now for low power black powder motors is Estes.

 

[green dragon]

My intention wasn't to denigrate anyone at all, simply offering up an opinion.what I did want to say is that there was more of a choice for bp motors back when FSI was still operating.All you have now for low power black powder motors is Estes.

Agree, in the 80s-90s we had Estes, some Centuri, MRC, early Quest, FSI 21mm and 18mm, maybe even a few oop Canaroc motors.... a lot less options for low power these days for sure .

 

[bad_idea]

Quest has some very nice low power motors too. And their parent Aerotech, if you look at D motors.

 

[Scott_650]

I started with model rocketry in 1969, took a very long break - from junior high until my daughter built a rocket for 4H! Then took another long break until my son built a rocket for Scouts, then another break until about 15 years ago - many, many LPR and MPR. builds and flights later I did my L1 flight last year. But as fun as bigger rockets can be model rocketry is where my heart is. The choices available today are amazing - other than finding launch sites these are the good old days - so many kits from so many sources - listing all the LPR and MPR kit makers would need a separate thread - add in the fun of flying Aerotech/Quest QJet motors, the Estes E12 motor and their 29mm BP motors (don’t forget the return of the C5, it’s a fun powered up alternative to the C6). Once you find a place to fly - and that can be a really big challenge - it’s a great time to be a rocketeer.

 

[ljwilley]

I wonder if any new companies will ever pop up that start selling low power motors.

 

[Buckeye]

Here we go again. Despite the nostalgia, the good ol' days are right now. Browse the Apogee website and note all the LPR and MPR kits and manufacturers.

Prior to the 90's there really was no HPR, hence more competition and options for LPR, the only game in town. Space interest waned, model rocketry became more specialized (like all hobbies over time), and motor makers found they could make more money in big motors vs. the small ones. That pretty much left Estes alone to fill the space for "vintage" rocket motors.

The loss of launch sites adds to it as well. I launch LPR locally, at a city park, on my own time. I never take anything less than an F to a club launch. I am not driving 2-3 hours just to wait in the flight queue for a couple woosh-pops. HPR makes it worth my while.

 

[ewomack]

Just yesterday I walked through a local hobby store's rather large rocket section. It struck me how many rockets now come almost completely pre-built. Probably more than half of the rockets displayed there required popping them out of the box, maybe doing one or two small things, and flying them. Though it may provide instant gratification, those kits likely won't contribute as much self-satisfaction or feeling of accomplishment than a full build. Trying, failing, and then succeeding is a valuable experience that can also create long-term interest in a hobby. When a child, I remember failing at building my first few rockets, but after a few attempts they started flying. That felt good. I don't think I would have experienced that same series of events, from which I learned quite a bit, by just pulling a kit out of the box and flying it.

My wife, who made her own prom dress and wedding dress, and overall tries to live the "DIY" and craft life, says that she sees this trend in many places. Companies of all kinds are creating kits that require little effort and likely won't instill much learning and experience in those who buy them. I've noticed this too. I don't know if this comes from marketing focus group studies, or just from the assumption that no one has time for such things (or that they won't make time for such things), but I do find it a little depressing. My quick jaunt down the rocket aisle left me a little sad.

 

[Art Upton]

I wonder if any new companies will ever pop up that start selling low power motors.

Magic 8 Ball says not likely...

 

[Ez2cDave]

I'm finding myself waxing nostalgic about the old days of rocketry lately.Looking through the latest Estes catalog seem to leave a lot to be desired.I'm having a hard time getting enthused about anything in it.Back in those days we still had Centuri and Flight Systems,and more lower power motors to choose from.i've always been content with my low power kits.i'm not a high power zealot by any means.Flying high power and certifications have never been an ambition of mine.Can't really afford that any way and don't have the space for it.

My intention wasn't to denigrate anyone at all, simply offering up an opinion.what I did want to say is that there was more of a choice for bp motors back when FSI was still operating.All you have now for low power black powder motors is Estes.

For me, other than all of the "plastic" in LPR, Estes made a huge mistake when they stopped selling a wide variety of parts and components ( yes, they sell "limited parts", but not like it was "back in the day" ), likely due to the outsourcing to China.

As for motors, what is missing are CORE-BURNER BP motors . . . The ONLY core-burner BP motor is the Estes A10 . . . We lost the "B14's", the FSI "D20's", "E60's", and "F100's" ( In the "early days of FSI", they did not CATO, but that all changed, following the death of Lonnie Reese ).

 

[Antares JS]

I'm finding myself waxing nostalgic about the old days of rocketry lately.Looking through the latest Estes catalog seem to leave a lot to be desired.I'm having a hard time getting enthused about anything in it.Back in those days we still had Centuri and Flight Systems,and more lower power motors to choose from.i've always been content with my low power kits.i'm not a high power zealot by any means.Flying high power and certifications have never been an ambition of mine.Can't really afford that any way and don't have the space for it.

Check out erockets.biz, apogeerockets.com, fliskits.com, and siriusrocketry.com. There are lots of other LPR kits available besides Estes if nothing there excites you, and there are low power composite motors available from Aerotech/Quest.

As for motors, what is missing are CORE-BURNER BP motors . . .

Aren't the C5's at least semi-core burners?

 

[Ez2cDave]

Aren't the C5's at least semi-core burners?

They have a small "dimple" in the propellant grain to initially expose more propellant area, to increase thrust briefly, but they are not a true "core-burner" design.

 

[skaffgeorge2]

Check out erockets.biz, apogeerockets.com, fliskits.com, and siriusrocketry.com. There are lots of other LPR kits available besides Estes if nothing there excites you, and there are low power composite motors available from Aerotech/Quest.


Aren't the C5's at least semi-core burners?

I'm concentrating my efforts in obtaining as many old out of production kits as I can find.I've already found several good ones.There are several sources for them now.

 

[James Duffy]

Despite the nostalgia, the good ol' days are right now.

This, absolutely.

There have never been more choices for kits, motors, accessories, manufacturers, suppliers, whatever, than right damn now.

 

[Ez2cDave]

This, absolutely.

There have never been more choices for kits, motors, accessories, manufacturers, suppliers, whatever, than right damn now.

Really . . . Show me the BP Core-Burners, then .
End-Burner BP motors SUCK, in anything but small, lightweight models !

 

[prfesser]

I wonder if any new companies will ever pop up that start selling low power motors.

My opinion: highly unlikely.

It's anything but a trivial venture. BATFE licensing and inspections. Sourcing materials/ingredients. Waste disposal---like it or not, EPA is going to be part of the venture. Marketing and distribution---what can a new company bring out that will cause all the (rocket)boys to flock to your yard for your new milkshake? The motors would probably need to be quite different from current offerings to have any chance of success. Or they'd need to be much cheaper than Estes et al. Quality assurance. Safety for the workers. Custom manufacturing equipment.

What motors are you looking for that aren't currently available? I know that some rocketnutz have expressed interest in something similar to the old blackpowder B14. Others have longed for a rebirth of Rocketflite BP motors in F, G, and H impulse. But I very much doubt that the interest in those motors would be sufficient to keep even a small company afloat. (Remember that although you can buy and store up to 50 lb of BP without a permit, a BP rocket motor with over 62.5 g of propellant still requires that the buyer have a BATFE license/permit/whatever. It's the gummint, it ain't spozed to make sense.)

 

[neil_w]

Really . . . Show me the BP Core-Burners, then .
End-Burner BP motors SUCK, in anything but small, lightweight models !

In many cases (I know, not all) composite motors can fill the void. Why the narrow focus on BP motors?

Yes, it would be nice to have something like a B14-0 again for staged rockets but it feels to me like most use cases are covered pretty well if you broaden your view to include composites.

 

[Ez2cDave]

In many cases (I know, not all) composite motors can fill the void. Why the narrow focus on BP motors?

Yes, it would be nice to have something like a B14-0 again for staged rockets but it feels to me like most use cases are covered pretty well if you broaden your view to include composites.

The "focus" is three-fold . . . Clustering, cost per motor, and local availability.

You will note that I am Level 2, so my view definitely includes composites. However, I tend to prefer flying BP motors, without feeling the need to burn large quantities of money. Eventually, I will make another "one & done" Level 3 attempt, just to "get my ticket punched".

I enjoy the "fire & smoke" of BP motors . . . Fireworks, too !

Dave F.

 

[4regt4]

Just yesterday I walked through a local hobby store's rather large rocket section. It struck me how many rockets now come almost completely pre-built. Probably more than half of the rockets displayed there required popping them out of the box, maybe doing one or two small things, and flying them. Though it may provide instant gratification, those kits likely won't contribute as much self-satisfaction or feeling of accomplishment than a full build. Trying, failing, and then succeeding is a valuable experience that can also create long-term interest in a hobby. When a child, I remember failing at building my first few rockets, but after a few attempts they started flying. That felt good. I don't think I would have experienced that same series of events, from which I learned quite a bit, by just pulling a kit out of the box and flying it.

My wife, who made her own prom dress and wedding dress, and overall tries to live the "DIY" and craft life, says that she sees this trend in many places. Companies of all kinds are creating kits that require little effort and likely won't instill much learning and experience in those who buy them. I've noticed this too. I don't know if this comes from marketing focus group studies, or just from the assumption that no one has time for such things (or that they won't make time for such things), but I do find it a little depressing. My quick jaunt down the rocket aisle left me a little sad.

I don't mind buying the occasional RTF rocket, in particular if I'm flying somewhere that has a lot of trees or other "issues". It's more of a "meh" to lose a cheap RTF than something I've spent a lot of time on.

Hans.

 

[Alan15578]

My opinion: highly unlikely.

agreed

What motors are you looking for that aren't currently available? I know that some rocketnutz have expressed interest in something similar to the old blackpowder B14. Others have longed for a rebirth of Rocketflite BP motors in F, G, and H impulse. But I very much doubt that the interest in those motors would be sufficient to keep even a small company afloat. (Remember that although you can buy and store up to 50 lb of BP without a permit, a BP rocket motor with over 62.5 g of propellant still requires that the buyer have a BATFE license/permit/whatever. It's the gummint, it ain't spozed to make sense.)

Some competitive domestic 10mm BP motors would be nice.
Missing historical motors such as:
the Original Centuri C5-0
13mm B motors (MPC)
18mm Cox D8
Most of the AVI Gold Series motors
FSI 21mm D20 and E5 (the contest certified D) motors
And of course more mundane motors that might out perform Estes on price and reliability.

 

[RocketRev]

..... Others have longed for a rebirth of Rocketflite BP motors in F, G, and H impulse. But I very much doubt that the interest in those motors would be sufficient to keep even a small company afloat. (Remember that although you can buy and store up to 50 lb of BP without a permit, a BP rocket motor with over 62.5 g of propellant still requires that the buyer have a BATFE license/permit/whatever. It's the gummint, it ain't spozed to make sense.)

I for one would love to see the old Rocketflite BP motors return. I flew a lot of the F, G, and H motors. Nothing personal to all the currently available "sparky" motors, but in my opinion, none of them could match the Silver Streaks! I think a rebirthed "Rocketflite" motor company (without the last batch of H-220's nasty habit of making catos) would excel as a motor.

But I had no idea that there was still a restriction on BP motors over 62.5 g's of propellant. I know its just my opinion, but that's just silly. But you are right prfesser.....if you had to have an LEUP, the company would not stay in business for long.

Brad the "I still miss the Silver Streaks" "Rocket Rev.," Wilson

 

[kuririn]

I'm finding myself waxing nostalgic about the old days of rocketry lately.Looking through the latest Estes catalog seem to leave a lot to be desired.I'm having a hard time getting enthused about anything in it.Back in those days we still had Centuri and Flight Systems,and more lower power motors to choose from.i've always been content with my low power kits

Centuri and FSI are gone, but in their place are a multitude of LPR kit makers:
Semroc (Erockets)
Custom
Rocketarium
Sirius
Fliskits
NewWay
Apogee
Odd'l
And many others.
I wax contemporaneous about the great times we live in right now.

 

[Ez2cDave]

Centuri and FSI are gone, but in their place are a multitude of LPR kit makers:
Semroc (Erockets)
Custom
Rocketarium
Sirius
Fliskits
NewWay
Apogee
Odd'l
And many others.
I wax contemporaneous about the great times we live in right now.

But, unfortunately, no BP motor manufacturers.

 

[Initiator001]

My opinion: highly unlikely.

It's anything but a trivial venture. BATFE licensing and inspections. Sourcing materials/ingredients. Waste disposal---like it or not, EPA is going to be part of the venture. Marketing and distribution---what can a new company bring out that will cause all the (rocket)boys to flock to your yard for your new milkshake? The motors would probably need to be quite different from current offerings to have any chance of success. Or they'd need to be much cheaper than Estes et al. Quality assurance. Safety for the workers. Custom manufacturing equipment.

What motors are you looking for that aren't currently available? I know that some rocketnutz have expressed interest in something similar to the old blackpowder B14. Others have longed for a rebirth of Rocketflite BP motors in F, G, and H impulse. But I very much doubt that the interest in those motors would be sufficient to keep even a small company afloat. (Remember that although you can buy and store up to 50 lb of BP without a permit, a BP rocket motor with over 62.5 g of propellant still requires that the buyer have a BATFE license/permit/whatever. It's the gummint, it ain't spozed to make sense.)

Agreed.

Also, one is looking at a $500K-$1M startup cost just to get mass production of BP motors going. It will take years to do all the paperwork and get the approvals. Once that is done, could such a company offer any motors that would allow them to take a sizable amount of business from Estes and make a profit?

 

[Cape Byron]

But, unfortunately, no BP motor manufacturers.

The expense and red tape to become a BP model rocket motor manufacturer would be staggering. That’s in the US. In a country like Oz it would be easier, and probably cheaper, to sell dinosaur steak in a supermarket. I’m thinking no change from 3 million dollars before you had a single motor to sell.

BP is seen as the Devil’s dandruff down here. You can’t just buy it, even a teaspoon full, without a licence or permit. Buying tonnes of the stuff would be, I would say, impossible.

And let’s just reinvent the Mabel machines from scratch. That would be mind-boggling in itself.

If I were a rich person I’d look at a modern Cold Power alternative to throw my money at.

 

[Initiator001]

This, absolutely.

There have never been more choices for kits, motors, accessories, manufacturers, suppliers, whatever, than right damn now.

Almost.

I would say that kit and parts availability was better ten years ago when Carl and his family were running Semroc.

Still, I am not complaining about the choices and variety we have available now.

 

[PDawg]

Considering the number of people into this Hobby, I can't believe how many options are available. Most don't even know this Hobby even exists and most have no place to launch even if they are interested. Sure I wished they made a D--6 or D-8. BP motor but the D-12 is fine and affordable so I make it work.

 

[astronwolf]

I'm finding myself waxing nostalgic about the old days of rocketry lately.Looking through the latest Estes catalog seem to leave a lot to be desired.I'm having a hard time getting enthused about anything in it.Back in those days we still had Centuri and Flight Systems,and more lower power motors to choose from.i've always been content with my low power kits.

I recommend first get yourself out of a slump with a daily walk and plenty of sleep, and plan some builds. Build a simple 3FNC Semroc kit with white glue, and paint it by hand. Do the NARTREK achievements. Scratch build a clone of a Centuri kit. That ought to get you enthused in an old timey way.

 

[skaffgeorge2]

I recommend first get yourself out of a slump with a daily walk and plenty of sleep, and plan some builds. Build a simple 3FNC Semroc kit with white glue, and paint it by hand. Do the NARTREK achievements. Scratch build a clone of a Centuri kit. That ought to get you enthused in an old timey way.

Just put the final coat of primer on an original Centuri Laser X.Have a few in the build pile yet, including a Centuri Nike Smoke.Several MPC kits,USS Andromeda from morerockets.com.Not burned out yet, just bored with Estes.Also have a couple of Semroc kits in the pile.But my prizes are my FSI Vikings.