Stiffening Fins Already on the Rocket

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atestani

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I have been successfully flying my workhorse rocket up through a J350W which was used to get my L2 certification. I have plans to fly it with a K535 and then an L1000. In looking at fin flutter, I am convinced I need to stiffen the fins. especially for the L1000 flight, which simulates to Mach 1.1.

This is a 3” diameter fiberglass rocket with through to the wall fins which are 5 ply, 0.118” thick basswood plywood. There are hefty fillets of West Systems 105 epoxy with filler on both the outside and inside of the body tube. The fins shape is like this:

1708667126409.png

My question is whether it better to glass the fins or to epoxy bond 1/16” (or 1/32") G10 sheets to each side of the fin. While the latter seems much easier to me and is my preference, I am not sure it is adequate.

Advice, please…
 
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You're only going slightly above Mach. Put a decent fillet in and then glass over the fins and body tube in that area like a tip to tip job with a single layer of woven lightweight glass fibre. The shape of the fillet with the glass over it will give the glass a better triangulated support structure. The basic fin shape you have is a strong shape structurally. That should be fine for where you intend to take the rocket to with GF over it. You can go to carbon fibre, but unless you MUST save the weight difference, there is no real advantage and it will cost more....
Good luck with the launch.
 
I would think G10 would be about as stiff as the same thickness of glass and epoxy, since that's basically what it is.

The drawing seems a bit fuzzy, but if I read it right, the fin root is 10 inches long. That means the section is only a bit over 1 percent thick. I'm sure you could make it several times thicker without causing any noticeable drag. So if you added some foam or balsa and sanded it to a sort of airfoil shape, then lightly glassed it, it could be far stiffer. You wouldn't want it thicker out near the tip, of course. Maybe make the foam go up 1/3 of the height of the fin or something. You'd have to get artsy with a sanding block. Then, at least if the body tube is substantial, you'll have much stiffer fins. At least after you applied some light glass or something. I doubt if you have to get very fancy to get good results. If you made the outer part thinner than it is, you'll reduce the weight out there and reduce the chance of flutter. I doubt if you'd have to get anywhere near as fancy as the picture of the 65-006 below to get good results. Nor would you have to make the trailing edge that sharp. Squared off at 1 percent of chord wouldn't be horrible.

Do you have a reason to think your fins will flutter?

65-006 picture.jpg
 
Basswood ply normally has a softer core for weight savings. Your fins are less than 1/8" thick. Nothing will help if you did not orientate the grain of the ply correctly in the first place.
 
It seems to me that simply laminating the fin surface with G10 may have negligible effect. When flutter becomes an issue, the failure point seems to be at or near the root chord: either at the joint with the airframe or near this joint. I suspect that this may be because the shear force induced by drag created by the flutter action multiplied by the lever arm (span of the fin) is greatest at that point. Simply laminating the fin surface only seems like it would not alleviate this issue. I suspect your best option will be a tip-to-tip fiberglass lamination as described by other posters above.
 
I have been successfully flying my workhorse rocket up through a J350W which was used to get my L2 certification. I have plans to fly it with a K535 and then an L1000. In looking at fin flutter, I am convinced I need to stiffen the fins. especially for the L1000 flight, which simulates to Mach 1.1.

This is a 3” diameter fiberglass rocket with through to the wall fins which are 5 ply, 0.118” thick basswood plywood. There are hefty fillets of West Systems 105 epoxy with filler on both the outside and inside of the body tube. The fins shape is like this:

View attachment 632129

My question is whether it better to glass the fins or to epoxy bond 1/16” (or 1/32") G10 sheets to each side of the fin. While the latter seems much easier to me and is my preference, I am not sure it is adequate.

Advice, please…
Perfect chance to try tip to tip fiber glassing
 
Do you have a reason to think your fins will flutter?

I used 2 different flutter calculators that gave different results. The one from Apogee Peak of Flight 291 gave a higher flutter speed than the one based on NACA TN4197. The NACA one gave a flutter velocity less than the velocity at motor burnout. I used a Shear Modulus of 100,000 for the plywood, but I don't have much confidence in that number.

Even though I read about evidence that the "shred velocity" is over 2X the flutter velocity, I decided I should just reinforce the fin can to be "safe".

OTOH, the Mach 1.2 is what OpenRocket gives for the simulation. I usually see OR giving values 10-20% over actual. Do I really need to be concerned about shredding due to fin flutter?
 
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Basswood ply normally has a softer core for weight savings. Your fins are less than 1/8" thick. Nothing will help if you did not orientate the grain of the ply correctly in the first place.
I thought plywood had plies at least at 90 degrees and some at 45 degrees from each other? I can't really tell for the fins on the rocket since they are painted but, for a spare painted fin, I can see on the unpainted tabs the grain of the top layers are running 45 degrees to the root. What is the correct orientation?

When you say nothing can be done, are you saying that, instead of tip-to-tip glassing, I should remove the fins and start over with G10 or carbon sheet fins?
 
I don’t think you have to do anything, it would be best if you could share a picture of the fillets so we can see what you mean by “hefty” But at Mach 1.1 it’ll probably be fine in my opinion.
 
I used 2 different flutter calculators that gave different results. The one from Apogee Peak of Flight 291 gave a higher flutter speed than the one based on NACA TN4197. The NACA one gave a flutter velocity less than the velocity at motor burnout. I used a Shear Modulus of 100,000 for the plywood, but I don't have much confidence in that number.

Even though I read about evidence that the "shred velocity" is over 2X the flutter velocity, I decided I should just reinforce the fin can to be "safe".
  1. What is the maximum speed you have measured with the J350? Have you seen any signs of flutter stress in the fillets, paint or fins?
  2. Peak of Flight 291 is in error. Multiple sources, happy to provide if necessary. (See https://www.apogeerockets.com/Peak-of-Flight/Newsletter615 for corrected and updated TN4197). <--NOTE TO USERS WITH G10 Fins. I disagree with J.K. Bennet's use of 600,000 as the shear modulus for G10. Based on experimental results with G10, 775,000 is a reasonable shear modulus.
  3. The 2x notion is actually 2.2x. and is an entirely experiential result. See Duncan McDonalds work (https://info-central.rocketlabdelta.com/archive/design_finflutter.html). This is just an experiential number with a small set of rockets. There is no calculator that is going to be precise enough to predict your actual flutter or shred velocity.
  4. One issue you have is there is no good and consistent source of shear modulus for some materials, particularly what you have used. There will be a large assumption when you choose your modulus. Some are fairly well known and established. Balsa (~33,000) and Birch Ply (~88,000) for example. It is unclear the right shear modulus for the plywood that you have used. I would assume it is lower that birch ply.
  5. I ran your numbers and come up with a flutter speed of 147mph/235fps. Given Duncan's experiential results, your shred velocity would be 2.2x flutter speed, or 323mph. It would seem to me, with a 3" rocket on J350, you would have already exceeded this number...that is why I asked my first question.
  6. With tip to tip reinforcement, Bennet indicates you can effectively double your shear modulus. I have no experience or citations to support this assertion. If you accept his assertion at face value, your flutter speed, with t2t reinforcement, would be 208mph, and your Duncan predicted shred boundary of 457mph.
  7. Assuming an 850' field, max velocity at 100feet, and 75 degree day, Mach = 759mph.
  8. I don't think you are going to find the answer you are looking for in a calculation. It may provide you some guidance for when to be "heads up."
 
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Grain should run parallel to leading edge. If I was putting a L1000 in her, I would not use that ply for fins. But that is just MHO. Basswood ply is usually hobby grade, not aircraft grade. It is used in cabinets a lot. Outer surface is what matters with the inner plys being of lesser grade material.
 
Looks like you added external fillets after painting. Just saying if it were my rocket I wouldn't put such a kick a** motor in it. With all the work involved with redoing the fins, better off building a rocket that can withstand the motors you want to use in it. Besides the more rockets the merrier. Just my 2 cents.
 
  1. What is the maximum speed you have measured with the J350? Have you seen any signs of flutter stress in the fillets, paint or fins?
  2. Peak of Flight 291 is in error. Multiple sources, happy to provide if necessary. (See https://www.apogeerockets.com/Peak-of-Flight/Newsletter615 for corrected and updated TN4197). <--NOTE TO USERS WITH G10 Fins. I disagree with J.K. Bennet's use of 600,000 as the shear modulus for G10. Based on experimental results with G10, 775,000 is a reasonable shear modulus.
  3. The 2x notion is actually 2.2x. and is an entirely experiential result. See Duncan McDonalds work (https://info-central.rocketlabdelta.com/archive/design_finflutter.html). This is just an experiential number with a small set of rockets. There is no calculator that is going to be precise enough to predict your actual flutter or shred velocity.
  4. One issue you have is there is no good and consistent source of shear modulus for some materials, particularly what you have used. There will be a large assumption when you choose your modulus. Some are fairly well known and established. Balsa (~33,000) and Birch Ply (~88,000) for example. It is unclear the right shear modulus for the plywood that you have used. I would assume it is lower that birch ply.
  5. I ran your numbers and come up with a flutter speed of 152mph/235fps. Given Duncan's experiential results, your shred velocity would be 2.2x flutter speed, or 352mph. It would seem to me, with a 3" rocket on J350, you would have already exceeded this number...that is why I asked my first question.
  6. With tip to tip reinforcement, Bennet indicates you can effectively double your shear modulus. I have no experience or citations to support this assertion. If you accept his assertion at face value, your flutter speed, with t2t reinforcement, would be 226mph, and your predicted shred boundary of 497mph.
  7. Assuming an 850' field, max velocity at 100feet, and 75 degree day, Mach = 759mph.
  8. I don't think you are going to find the answer you are looking for in a calculation. It may provide you some guidance for when to be "heads up."
Thanks... very useful information!

In all of the flights so far, I have seen zero indication of a problem but, in retrospect, I should mention that these were with a semi-span of 2.75 vs 3.75 and 20% less fin area, which, of course, increases the flutter velocity for the smaller fins. I was using a lot of nose weight for stability but can't go any higher in weight for the K and L motors, so I have a way to add an extension to get the bigger fins I show. BTW, I had pretty much ruled out PoF291.

I agree that the modulus is the biggest unknown and with the numbers you give, and I am sure 100000 is too high. I asked for ranges on both Gemini (Google's AI tool) and chatGPT and, indeed, birch is stronger than basswood. The modulus ranges given were lower with Gemini than chatGPT but even using the lowest of Gemini ranges seem too high: birch 116,000, basswood 87,000.

If I run the NACA based calculator "backwards", it appears you used about 20,000 for the modulus? What tool are you using and what did you use for the modulus, in your calculations?

In any case, I am going to t2t glass the fins can!
 
Looks like you added external fillets after painting. Just saying if it were my rocket I wouldn't put such a kick a** motor in it. With all the work involved with redoing the fins, better off building a rocket that can withstand the motors you want to use in it. Besides the more rockets the merrier. Just my 2 cents.
This is a good point... I did put the fillet on after the paint. In retrospect, that was dumb! This rocket has a "removable" fin can so I may just build a new fin can with proper fins and glass tip-to-tip.
 
TLDR? Read the last paragraph, not counting the footnote.

If the shear modulus we're talking about is in-plane, generated by twisting of the fins, then there is a big difference depending on grain direction. See page 21 (per the numbers on the pages) or 38 (according to the software):
https://kth.diva-portal.org/smash/get/diva2:1711342/FULLTEXT01.pdf
Notice that the in-plane shear modulus is much higher when the grain is */- 45 degrees than at 0/90. So if twisting is the problem, diagonal grain direction is best. If bending is the problem, then 0/90 is best. If bending is the problem, then 0/90 is the way to go. This may be tough to ascertain, because both are important in flutter. The same applies to the weave direction with fiberglass and carbon fiber. Plus, uni-directional is MUCH stiffer than woven, though in torsion you need two layers at right angles to each other. Different weaves have different stiffness. The straighter the fibers, the stiffer and stronger the laminate will be, at least in-plane. The difference in carbon fiber uni laminations will be much greater than with, say, woven fiberglass. I'm guessing that's because with the carbon, the ratio between the modulus of the fiber and the epoxy is so much higher than with fiberglass and epoxy.

If the outside layers of the plywood are at 45 degrees, then the glass should be at 0/90, I think. Unless you are using uni, when it could all be at 0, i.e. spanwise.

The bending and torsional stiffness of the fins will both be enhanced greatly if the root foil section is made a little thicker. The flutter frequency, and therefore flutter speed will be raised by reducing the weight, and therefore the moments of inertia, of the tips. If you extend the tips, use balsa or foam, though you might want to glass it for durability. Go easy with the glass, and blot the glass with toilet paper when you're finished wetting it out. The epoxy doesn't contribute nearly as much to stiffness and strength as the fibers do, as long as there's enough epoxy to restrain the fibers. If one were starting from scratch, I suspect that the fins could be made MUCH stiffer and somewhat lighter by using a lightweight core, thicker at the root, with composites on the outside. The airplane people typically make a spar to handle the bending part, but I doubt this is necessary for something so stubby.

If torsion is the problem, I suspect the fillets do a reasonable job of tying in with the body tube, assuming they don't crack away from the fin or from the tube. (What kind of surface prep did you use?) They will only help stiffen things in bending if the body tube is stiff enough. This, I think, is part of why people make fin cans. That and ease of positioning the fins. If it was me, I think I might just use glass and epoxy, and maybe a veneer core to build up the thickness to make a sandwich. The local bending stiffness of the tube is most important right next to the fin, and diminishes as you get away from it. So, if one was a complete weight weenie, starting from scratch, one might use a stack of sort-of elliptical laminations under the fin, each one skinnier than the previous. But that's probably too much trouble, and maybe unnecessary unless you are using nice, light glass.

I suspect that, with these stubby fins, the in-plane shear modulus of the plywood may be less important then the bending stiffness of the ply*. The local bending stiffness of the body tube is also important if you want the fillets to help much. If it was mine, I might sand down the fins so they tapered in thickness near the tips, sand everything a bit for better adhesion, do something to add thickness near the root, glass everything lightly, and add a strip of glass along the fillet, somewhat wider than the fillet. Note that the small bit goes on top of the bigger bit, so that the fibers go straight rather than going down over a step. If I had uni-carbon on hand (which I do), and I was really concerned, I'd make the strip along the fillet with it, going spanwise, which would also be in the circumferential direction of the tube.

* A lot of the emphasis on flutter is with airplane wings, which have a much higher aspect ratio than these fins. So torsional stiffness is really important for them, in addition to bending. With these fins, I suspect that bending stiffness is more critical.
 
TLDR? Read the last paragraph, not counting the footnote.
Not TLDR at all. I have been reading everything in this thread in detail. I appreciate you and the others giving me advice on this. Thanks!

I've concluded that trying to rework what I have it will be far harder than just building a new fin can. Fortunately, this rocket has a separable fin can, so the rest of the rocket is still useable. I need to spend more time determining what materials, specs, and sizes to use but I will probably go with 1/8" G10 sheet for the fins and tip to tip glassing. The body tube is already fiberglass.
 
1/8" G10 sheet will be much heavier and floppier than a thicker fin made with lighter, cheaper materials. Unless you are going to use the rocket as a mace, I advise against a single layer of G-10. And I think, if it was me, I could probably modify your existing fins ready for glassing in a couple of hours. As a mace, steel fins welded to a steel fin can are probably best. Unless you have the hands of a pro basketball player, your rocket's body tube is probably too big for use as a mace, anyway. ;-)

If you are going to make new fins, my guess is that a NACA 65-006 would not be a bad shape. It's not a magic shape, but it's probably pretty good. You can make the trailing edge of finite thickness and square it off if you want. If you want to make this by sanding, check this out: https://charlesriverrc.org/articles...-shaping-of-balsa-surfaces-without-templates/
65-006 picture.jpg
 
Ever seen a Wildman Mach 2, or Mach 3?
Who are you asking?

The fin design and thickness put the Mach 3 Flutter boundary at 1.4 Mach and Shred boundary at 3.269 Mach. Martin's model (4197) was only validated to about Mach 1.5.

Fin material and thickness make a material difference. The 3/16 G10 on the Mach 3 make a big difference.
 
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* A lot of the emphasis on flutter is with airplane wings, which have a much higher aspect ratio than these fins. So torsional stiffness is really important for them, in addition to bending. With these fins, I suspect that bending stiffness is more critical.
I was reaching this conclusion too regarding torsion vs flexure. Shear modulus is only used in calculations involving torsion and it is hard to imagine torsion in the fin shape that was shown. Shear modulus can be calculated for elastic monolithic materials but isn't so easy for wood, much less for wood that is composed of layers with grain running different directions. If you cover the fins with additional plies of G10 or cloth and epoxy the the shear modulus of the plywood core would not be of importance.
There was discussion about putting layers of G10 on the fins but leaving a weak plane near the fin root. This is correct but the overall stiffness of the fin would be increased and if it can be kept out of the flutter zone then the strength of the section near the root wouldn't be as important. Nevertheless I think it would be easier to just fiberglass the fins tip to tip. I agree that multiple layers could be applied that would taper the thickness from tip to root to make the fin stiffer for flexure without adding as much weight or drag.
 
There are published values for shear modulus in plywood, both for 0-90 and for +/-45. I think I recently saw some test data, with a graph covering angles, for birch plywood.

Ah, here we go. From post 17 above.
https://kth.diva-portal.org/smash/get/diva2:1711342/FULLTEXT01.pdf
See page 21 and 23, going by the page numbers, or 38 and 40, going by the software.

I've seen other published values elsewhere. I don't remember if they differed, though.

If adding a layer of G10, the fillet could be expanded and glassed over to tie it in. It wouldn't take much. However, when it comes to stiffness, thickness often trumps high modulus materials.
 
German??? The paper I linked to is in English. Or are you saying it's all Greek* to you? ;-)

*If anyone from Greece is reading this, please don't take offense. It's implying that the paper is at a high level. Maybe because Greek letters are often used as variables in technical subjects??
 
If adding a layer of G10, the fillet could be expanded and glassed over to tie it in. It wouldn't take much. However, when it comes to stiffness, thickness often trumps high modulus materials.
Flexural stiffness and torsional stiffness are both a function of the dimension cubed so yes thickness is important. There is a little more to it for flexure and for torsion, but that's a general relationship.

That article doesn't give much information on shear modulus but does have a small graph. I'll guess that shear modulus is mostly of interest in torsion, not so much in other types of analysis except maybe FE elements. Flexural modulus is much more common, usually called modulus of elasticity or young's modulus. It is quite a bit higher than shear modulus.
 
88,000

MathCad. I corrected the denominator constant because you do not have symetrical fins.

View attachment 632208
I've download the trial for Mathcad Express 9.0.0.0 but it won't open the *.txt file, renamed to *.mcdx file (v1.1) you posted in the thread:
https://www.rocketryforum.com/threads/flutter-tools-for-you.183681/

When I try to open the file, the extension *.mcdx is shown but an error occurs stating the "file type is not supported". The log file has an entry "File contains corrupted data". Log file is attached.

Would you mind posting the file again? Thanks
 

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Again, thanks for all the advice and information. I took what was repeated a few times, stripped all the paint, and T2T glassed the fins. I also added 3D printed (PAHT-CF) extensions for more surface area.

I've attached some photos (titles are explanatory).
 

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  • 5Coplanar extensions.jpg
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  • 6Holding fixture and marks for first layer of glass over fillets.jpg
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  • 8Glassed and peel ply.jpg
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  • Ready for final sanding and paint.jpg
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