Staging composites

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skaffgeorge2

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Something I've been wondering about for a long time, has there ever been any research or experimentation into direct staging of composite motors?Or is it actually impossible?Seems to me that someone must have thought about it at some point, I don't believe I'm the only one who's asked this question before.
 
Something I've been wondering about for a long time, has there ever been any research or experimentation into direct staging of composite motors?Or is it actually impossible?Seems to me that someone must have thought about it at some point, I don't believe I'm the only one who's asked this question before.
Its been discussed a lot, most of the issues are due to the way APCP motors must be lit (at the top first). The delay grains are also not compatible, BP booster motors use the propellant a the forward closure until it burns through and dont use delay grains. Search around the Propulsion and Staging forum sections you should find some info.
 
Something I've been wondering about for a long time, has there ever been any research or experimentation into direct staging of composite motors?Or is it actually impossible?Seems to me that someone must have thought about it at some point, I don't believe I'm the only one who's asked this question before.
You are not.

I believe that several decades ago, it was pretty easy to ignite the sustainer with fuses or some other pyrotechnic timing mechanism that were themselves ignited by booster ignition. I understand that nowadays the materials are less obtainable than they used to be. Perhaps some guys who were there can provide further detail.
 
Use an electronic controller: altimeter, timer... Something with a tilt inhibit so it doesn't light and do the cruise missile thing.
 
I was thinking more along the lines of whether they can be direct staged without the use of electronics, however knowing what I know about composite motors it's beginning to seem likely that it isn't actually possible to do so.I know this has come up before but not much seems to have come from it.As it is I don't have any practical experience with composite motors so it's mainly just supposition on my part, but I'm always looking to increase my sum of knowledge on things like this.
 
I was thinking more along the lines of whether they can be direct staged without the use of electronics, however knowing what I know about composite motors it's beginning to seem likely that it isn't actually possible to do so.I know this has come up before but not much seems to have come from it.As it is I don't have any practical experience with composite motors so it's mainly just supposition on my part, but I'm always looking to increase my sum of knowledge on things like this.

You can't get the quick thermalite that was used in the old days anymore. That is why folks switched to electronics.
 
I was thinking more along the lines of whether they can be direct staged without the use of electronics, however knowing what I know about composite motors it's beginning to seem likely that it isn't actually possible to do so.I know this has come up before but not much seems to have come from it.As it is I don't have any practical experience with composite motors so it's mainly just supposition on my part, but I'm always looking to increase my sum of knowledge on things like this.
There's a big difference between the way a black powder motor functions and a composite motor. In a BP motor, the "sections" (thrust, delay, ejection) perform in series, one after the other. In a composite motor, the thrust and delay are burning at the same time. *IN THEORY* one could come up with a pyrotechnic device, a type of quick match, that could take ignition from the lower stage and ignite the engine in the upper, but the timing of the delay element of the lower stage would have to be exactly right. Considering the variances in timing, this would be almost impossible.
 
There are at least two issues with direct composite staging. First, there is a limit as to how short the delay can be on the booster motor. A zero-delay motor is not possible. At least 3-4 seconds is necessary because the delay grain is ignited and burns at the same time as does the propellant. The delay grain must be thick enough at all times to keep the chamber pressure from bursting through the delay.

Second issue, as several have already mentioned, is that a composite motor must be ignited at the forward end. Old-style staging often used a piece of "thermalite"---very fast burning, 'hot' fuse---that was ignited by the booster motor. It carried flame almost instantly to the forward end of the sustainer motor.

Although thermalite is no longer available there are alternatives. "Quickmatch" is cotton string, soaked in a BP mixture, coated with BP, then wrapped in a paper sheath ("piping"). Quickmatch burns around 30-50 feet per second so it carries flame from the booster to the sustainer almost instantly. However, quickmatch is not by itself sufficient to ignite most composite propellants. The forward end of the quickmatch must be boosted with a strip of easily-ignited composite propellant.

Dan Williams, an outstanding amateur pyrotechnician, has an old web page that describes the making of many pyrotechnic and rocket-related materials, including a thermalite-type cord. Some of the materials are only available from Firefox but I'm sure that substitutes could be devised. (And I sure wouldn't mind trying his 1.5" i.d., 2" o.d. endburning BP motors...or at least watching them in use. Move over, Estes F15s! :) )
 
"Quickmatch" is cotton string, soaked in a BP mixture, coated with BP, then wrapped in a paper sheath ("piping").

This may be treading into material best discussed in a section of the forum in which I'm not able to participate, but since it's not an actual motor...

There has been discussion of dissolving single-base smokeless in acetone to enhance ignitors. I wonder if such a solution could be used instead of the "soaked in a BP mixture" step above. The stuff burns very quickly, but not explosively when not confined.

Some Blue Thunder shavings should finish the job nicely.

Frankly, I'd probably as far as my own activity regard such a project as sufficiently "EXP" to not go there without being L2. And in any case, wouldn't try it on anything bigger than small SU motors. The electronics do provide a valuable safety edge when power and weight drive up the stakes.
 
Aerotech used to make direct stagable composite -0 delay booster motors. Mostly end burners, but not all ( I have some F44-0s )

Direct staging involved thermalite fuse installed in sustainer motor and fed in the touch hole of the booster motor. minor delay but it worked.

2 stage D7s = 40 nsec total = E eggloft altitude record for our team the Boostin' Bandits.
 
Aerotech used to make direct stagable composite -0 delay booster motors. Mostly end burners, but not all ( I have some F44-0s )

Direct staging involved thermalite fuse installed in sustainer motor and fed in the touch hole of the booster motor. minor delay but it worked.

2 stage D7s = 40 nsec total = E eggloft altitude record for our team the Boostin' Bandits.
When one is provided with evidence that disproves one's opinion/statement/hypothesis, critical thinking should take place...

....I was WROOOONNNNNG! :D

Thanks, Al!! Seriously. I didn't know that. Now I'm wondering how such motors were constructed. Ordinarily the chamber pressure at the end of the burn would be expected to burst through what remains of the delay or (for an endburner) propellant.
 
When one is provided with evidence that disproves one's opinion/statement/hypothesis, critical thinking should take place...

....I was WROOOONNNNNG! :D

Thanks, Al!! Seriously. I didn't know that. Now I'm wondering how such motors were constructed. Ordinarily the chamber pressure at the end of the burn would be expected to burst through what remains of the delay or (for an endburner) propellant.
I’m guessing that the fuse plugged up the touch hole well enough that only very little heat went forward prior to burnout.
 
I was thinking more along the lines of whether they can be direct staged without the use of electronics, however knowing what I know about composite motors it's beginning to seem likely that it isn't actually possible to do so.I know this has come up before but not much seems to have come from it.As it is I don't have any practical experience with composite motors so it's mainly just supposition on my part, but I'm always looking to increase my sum of knowledge on things like this.
I believe the true answer for you is: Yes, composite motors can be staged without electronics, but in a different way than BP motors. However, with the current state of flight computers, any method that doesn't use them for staging, with all their logic safeties (launch detection, tilt lockout, height/speed lockout, etc.), are way out of favor and probably prohibited at most launches.

The key point now is not igniting the upper stage, but keeping it from igniting when conditions are not safe to continue the flight.
 
The key point now is not igniting the upper stage, but keeping it from igniting when conditions are not safe to continue the flight.
true, but sort of round robin thinking.

as Der @prfesser pointed out, major issues are the difficulty of obtaining a zero delay composite booster and the challenge of lighting the core burning sustainer. All the workarounds so far involve a delay between booster burnout (fuse takes a finite amount of time), as opposed to black powder to black powder staging which is almost instantaneous.


IF (and it is a BIG if) someone solves those problems (reliable near instantaneous staging at booster burnout), you are left with the same situation as black powder to black powder staging, which ALSO has the inherent risks of sustainer ignition when conditions are not safe for flight.

There is a saying, “if you ain’t cheating you ain’t trying.”

safety is by definition paramount.

you COULD potentially cluster a rocket with BP and Cluster motors. there are issues with simultaneous ignition of combined motors (I theeeeeenk BP may tend to ignite faster, so may need to long clip whip on a pole that keeps the igniters in the slower motors until they clear the rod/rail, giving them a few milliseconds more time), and the booster BP motors can stage to both sustainer composite and BP motors, fuse fo composite, gap or direct for BP). Design would have to be such that entire flight is achievable and safe it ONLY black powder motors ignite, and you would remove the ejection charge from booster composite. You’d also want a longer burn Time for the booster BPs than composite, which may be hard to find. AND a longer delay on the booster BPs, so if booster composite doesn’t light, you still get an ejection event.

@Neutronium95 has a great point with that scary video. Off axis staging is frightening in any power rocket, from MicroMaxx up (MicroMaxx may be small, but can have very pointy nose cones!), although the risk is higher the greater the motor impulse.

so by the time you have enough BP motors to make the flight “reasononable” for a BP/Composite combo, you have a pretty heavy rocket. And since even BP to BP staging does NOT 100% prevent Off Axis staging (the few I have seen involved weathercocking usually associated with too weak a booster motor), just because you CAN (or might) make this work doesn’t mean you SHOULD.

I am a proud L-0, so aside from onboard cameras and maybe altimeters, I don’t fly electronics. Maybe somebody can chime in with what’s the lowest cost reliable electronic device that has safe lockouts? Tilt access would be ideal, but I’ve read that reasonable altitude lockouts would also be safe (I think assumption is if it reaches a certain altitude it MUST be vertical or near vertical, but I am not sure.)

something not addressed In above discussion is recovery of booster. outside of my own long gap (up to 53”) designs (which use an auxilliary small clustered Delayed BP motor on booster to deploy the chute 3 seconds after staging [remember, even after staging booster still often has VERTICAL velocity to bleed off] and works surprisingly well), the vast majority of BP stagers use tumble recovery for the booster. The is okay up to, say, 24mm motors, but heavy boosters with big motors tumbling From the skies aren’t exactly optimal either.

so back to @Neutronium95 ’s concern, since BP motors are available for low and mid power staging, what do you GAIN by doing it with composites? At the point you NEED composites rocket size may be such that you really want some sort of electronic lockout regardless.
 
When one is provided with evidence that disproves one's opinion/statement/hypothesis, critical thinking should take place...

....I was WROOOONNNNNG! :D

Thanks, Al!! Seriously. I didn't know that. Now I'm wondering how such motors were constructed. Ordinarily the chamber pressure at the end of the burn would be expected to burst through what remains of the delay or (for an endburner) propellant.
At a guess, with a dimple in the top and a support washer having a hole >= 2x greater in area than the nozzle.
 
In my opinion, electronics with some sort of safety lockout should be mandatory for staged flights with composite motors. Flights like this can be easily prevented.


Any one of a number of safeties could have prevented that -- tilt lockout, altitude lockout, time-to-altitude cutoff, etc..

My staging experience happened over 25 years ago. We had simple timers, basic 2-channel altimeters, mercury G switches, and the like. If a multi-stage rocket was armed, and fell over on the pad, you had 3 or 4 seconds before the booster was going to rapidly vacate the area, towards whatever it happened to be pointed at. Our safety was conservatively stable design, conservative motor selection, and handling them like ticking time bombs. Looking back, I can't believe they let us do it. Boy it was fun!

But if we had reasonably-priced electronics available that could have, through logic, made it all safer, we'd have been all over it.
 
true, but sort of round robin thinking.

as Der @prfesser pointed out, major issues are the difficulty of obtaining a zero delay composite booster and the challenge of lighting the core burning sustainer. All the workarounds so far involve a delay between booster burnout (fuse takes a finite amount of time), as opposed to black powder to black powder staging which is almost instantaneous.


IF (and it is a BIG if) someone solves those problems (reliable near instantaneous staging at booster burnout), you are left with the same situation as black powder to black powder staging, which ALSO has the inherent risks of sustainer ignition when conditions are not safe for flight.

There is a saying, “if you ain’t cheating you ain’t trying.”

safety is by definition paramount.

you COULD potentially cluster a rocket with BP and Cluster motors. there are issues with simultaneous ignition of combined motors (I theeeeeenk BP may tend to ignite faster, so may need to long clip whip on a pole that keeps the igniters in the slower motors until they clear the rod/rail, giving them a few milliseconds more time), and the booster BP motors can stage to both sustainer composite and BP motors, fuse fo composite, gap or direct for BP). Design would have to be such that entire flight is achievable and safe it ONLY black powder motors ignite, and you would remove the ejection charge from booster composite. You’d also want a longer burn Time for the booster BPs than composite, which may be hard to find. AND a longer delay on the booster BPs, so if booster composite doesn’t light, you still get an ejection event.

@Neutronium95 has a great point with that scary video. Off axis staging is frightening in any power rocket, from MicroMaxx up (MicroMaxx may be small, but can have very pointy nose cones!), although the risk is higher the greater the motor impulse.

so by the time you have enough BP motors to make the flight “reasononable” for a BP/Composite combo, you have a pretty heavy rocket. And since even BP to BP staging does NOT 100% prevent Off Axis staging (the few I have seen involved weathercocking usually associated with too weak a booster motor), just because you CAN (or might) make this work doesn’t mean you SHOULD.

I am a proud L-0, so aside from onboard cameras and maybe altimeters, I don’t fly electronics. Maybe somebody can chime in with what’s the lowest cost reliable electronic device that has safe lockouts? Tilt access would be ideal, but I’ve read that reasonable altitude lockouts would also be safe (I think assumption is if it reaches a certain altitude it MUST be vertical or near vertical, but I am not sure.)

something not addressed In above discussion is recovery of booster. outside of my own long gap (up to 53”) designs (which use an auxilliary small clustered Delayed BP motor on booster to deploy the chute 3 seconds after staging [remember, even after staging booster still often has VERTICAL velocity to bleed off] and works surprisingly well), the vast majority of BP stagers use tumble recovery for the booster. The is okay up to, say, 24mm motors, but heavy boosters with big motors tumbling From the skies aren’t exactly optimal either.

so back to @Neutronium95 ’s concern, since BP motors are available for low and mid power staging, what do you GAIN by doing it with composites? At the point you NEED composites rocket size may be such that you really want some sort of electronic lockout regardless.
$80 gets you a staging timer with tilt lockout. For a couple hundred bucks you can get an all-in-one flight computer that can stage, and do multiple recovery events, and has tilt lockouts, and time-to-altitude logic (won't fire sustainer igniter if rocket is too low and/or too slow).
 
Old timers told me they used to light two fuses simlutaneously, short one for the booster, long one for the sustainer. It didn't work very often, like 1 of 4 attempts, but was awesome when it worked.

Somewhere in storage I have a couple rolls of cannon fuse. Burns at about half second per inch. I bought it from the old hobby shop in Oakdale. The rocket stuff was on a dusty shelf in the back. The mean old man who ran the store didn't believe in lighting rocket motors electrically.
 
In my opinion, electronics with some sort of safety lockout should be mandatory for staged flights with composite motors. Flights like this can be easily prevented.


That was the worst of all worlds... unstable looping stack, sustainer lit pointed horizontally right above the ground. It's fortunate that it wasn't pointing at the flight line.

It will cost you an extra booster motor, but a good sanity check is to fly your stack with your intended motors without the igniter in the sustainer (this assumes electronic deployment for the sustainer, of course). If you have an issue, you'll find out about it without the added risk of the sustainer firing in a compromising attitude. Set your electronics as you would if it was a "real" flight, but use a dummy load instead of the motor igniter. Afterwards, you can look at the data to determine what the appropriate lockout parameters should be, based on real-world data.
 
Common sense would say when launching a heads up flight, the LCO should kill the music first before the flight announcment and allow for much more than 7 seconds to pass before hitting the button so that everyone has time to refocus their attention. That was the first big safety issue I noticed. A common occurrence there.
 
Common sense would say when launching a heads up flight, the LCO should kill the music first before the flight announcment and allow for much more than 7 seconds to pass before hitting the button so that everyone has time to refocus their attention. That was the first big safety issue I noticed. A common occurrence there.
Good point. Been a long time since I witnessed a heads-up flight, but IIRC, aren't they also supposed to get a long countdown?
 
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