Signed up for a Concealed Carry class on Sunday

[Tronman]

Yeah, you gotta' love political reasoning. Call for the removal of a type of bullet because it works so well.

They were designed for maximum stopping power and shallow penetration, but earned the term "cop killer bullets" by certain people with an agenda. This is why they're called Black Talons: https://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/11/1926dept44310.jpg/

 

[Coop]

Yes, those are the ones. Winchester voluntarily took them off the market. I bought up as many as I could while they were still on the shelves.

They were reintroduced as the Winchester SXT, meaning Same eXact Thing --just minus the colored jacket. In my .45, they're quite accurate and expand well. Cronographed at 910 FPS out of a 5" barrel, and group 3 at 3/4" ctc from a rest at 25 yards.

I've got several boxes worth of them in 45 and 9mm.


Later!

--Coop

 

[Pem Tech]

OK, one last time for this speech just as a reminder.
PLEASE, let's not devolve this thread into an gun and anti-gun bickering match and get pulled like the last firearm thread. So far everyone has done very well and I am pleased. AFter all, this whole thread is about my crazy ex and the firearm I purchased to protect myself. Now on to the gun porn, some of us just love the look and feel of a well made machine.

This is the case for the Springfield XD-S, it was much larger than I expected.


And inside the case.


A thermoplastic holster, two mag carrier, two 5-round mags, gun lock and a cleaning brush are standard accessories.


And here is the XD-S subcompact in .45 ACP...


Cute little thing, isn't it?

Now to demonstrate just how compact this pistol is, here is a comparison of the XD-S with the Walther P-22 in .22LR.


Now the REALLY amazing thing...
Here is the Springfield laid atop the Walther.

 

[Pem Tech]

And the Walther atop the Springfield.


For all practical porpoises they are the same size!!

Think about this, the .22LR throws a 40gr slug at ~1150 fps and the .45 ACP throws a 230gr slug at ~835fps.
(All velocities are approximate)
That is a lot of energy in a little package, but the recoil and muzzle flip are not harsh.


Take down is a snap, lock the slide back, rotate the takedown lever to the 1200 position, release the slide, pull the trigger (the XD-S has a trigger disconnect that activates when the takedown lever is rotated) and the slide comes right off.


Pop out the captive springs and lift out the barrel. That is it...

 

[Pem Tech]

And finally the XD-S and mags in their holsters.


OK, picture show is over....

:grin:

 

[Fred22]

They were designed for maximum stopping power and shallow penetration, but earned the term "cop killer bullets" by certain people with an agenda. This is why they're called Black Talons: https://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/11/1926dept44310.jpg/

Why would you need these rounds?

 

[tbonerocketeer]

Why would you need these rounds?

Why do you need a car that can go 100+? It isn't about need, but about right to have. Those bullets have stopping ability, which is what you need if you are ever defending your life.



To everyone else, the person who started this thread has asked to stop dragging it off to pro vs anti gun. PLEASE allow them to keep this thread as THEY wish and take the bickering to another thread that you start. :bangpan:

 

[RandyT0001]

Why would you need these rounds?

They would be useful to stop a person from attacking me. They would be useful to stop a home intruder breaking down my door. I do not want to be killed in such an incident nor am I willing to let my family die in such a situation. I will prepare to defend myself. I buy car insurance in case I have an automobile accident. The city does not have a police officer assigned to follow me and defend me so I must do it. I cannot afford to pay for an armed guard to follow me to defend me from attack. That is why people arm themselves with handguns and go through the process of obtaining a firearm carry permit issued by their state of residence. Personal protection because nobody else can be there all the time like I am.

 

[Fred22]

Why do you need a car that can go 100+? It isn't about need, but about right to have. Those bullets have stopping ability, which is what you need if you are ever defending your life.



To everyone else, the person who started this thread has asked to stop dragging it off to pro vs anti gun. PLEASE allow them to keep this thread as THEY wish and take the bickering to another thread that you start. :bangpan:

Well having spent ten years in the army it seems to me regular 9mm worked just fine. My minivan generally does about 110 kph on the highways. I was not asking about pro vs whatever I was asking a question about a round. Im not bickering at all. :eyeroll:

 

[Fred22]

They would be useful to stop a person from attacking me. They would be useful to stop a home intruder breaking down my door. I do not want to be killed in such an incident nor am I willing to let my family die in such a situation. I will prepare to defend myself. I buy car insurance in case I have an automobile accident. The city does not have a police officer assigned to follow me and defend me so I must do it. I cannot afford to pay for an armed guard to follow me to defend me from attack. That is why people arm themselves with handguns and go through the process of obtaining a firearm carry permit issued by their state of residence. Personal protection because nobody else can be there all the time like I am.

You know once again i asked a question about a bullet. You dont need to roll out the rote responces as to why you folks carry and pocess guns. I could care less if you people pack a bazooka in your shirt pocket. its none of my business. Im happy with our gun laws and you folks can do what you want. Does that make sence?

 

[tbonerocketeer]

Well having spent ten years in the army it seems to me regular 9mm worked just fine. My minivan generally does about 110 kph on the highways. I was not asking about pro vs whatever I was asking a question about a round. Im not bickering at all. :eyeroll:

I understand what you are saying, however, I have friends that had to use 16-9mm rounds, all center mass, to take down that dude coming at them doped up on whatever drug after being told to stop(over in the desert)

 

[Pem Tech]

Well having spent ten years in the army it seems to me regular 9mm worked just fine. My minivan generally does about 110 kph on the highways. I was not asking about pro vs whatever I was asking a question about a round. Im not bickering at all. :eyeroll:

And I appreciate that....
:clap:

The BlackTalons were designed for greater energy transfer within the target. From what I've read they really didn't perform any better than standard JHP rounds, but I've never fired or recovered one. Now if you want to discuss the terminal ballistics of the 7mm Remington Magnum, I'm your guy. Spent years testing multiple brands and types of projectiles at varying ranges by firing them into silicon rubber and recovering the slug. Ahhhh, those were good days.

 

[Pem Tech]

You know once again i asked a question about a bullet. You dont need to roll out the rote responces as to why you folks carry and pocess guns. I could care less if you people pack a bazooka in your shirt pocket. its none of my business. Im happy with our gun laws and you folks can do what you want. Does that make sence?

Fred, this is a very emotional subject for some of us, and from experience I know that sometimes an innocent question triggers a strong emotional response. In the US we are fighting for our basic Constitutional rights and, for me, my "gun nerve" is hyper sensitive. And yes, your statement makes sense.

 

[Tronman]

Why would you need these rounds?

From what I understand, these cartridges, and others like them, are designed to not pass through the target, thereby insuring that no one behind the target will be harmed by them. I believe they will also not pass through ordinary walls and harm anyone on the other side. Also, by expanding when they hit the target, they have greater stopping power, which is especially important for a smaller cartridge.

 

[Tarasdad]

Fred, the question you ask raises the difference between the needs of military vs. civilian use. Military rounds are designed to wound, not kill. For military purposes a wounding round is more useful because (in theory, at least) a wounded enemy takes one to two others off the field of combat to care for him. In civilian use the need is not to wound but to STOP an attacker. For that expanding projectiles are far more effective as they transfer more energy and do a better job of stopping an opponent with fewer shots required. Military FMJ rounds tend to drill nice, neat little holes in their target that transfer minimal energy whereas JHP rounds make big, messy wounds that...well, let's just say they leave a job for the coroner rather than the medic and leave it at that. I've read comments from WWII survivors who were shot where they were hit multiple times with only relatively minor injuries. There are even reports on record of a German soldier seeking aid on D-Day who took 4 .50 caliber rounds through his abdomen and not only lived, but walked from the heights above the landing beaches to a US aid station seeking medical hielp.

Tron, that's a common misconception. It is very rare for a major caliber projectile to NOT achieve through-and-through penetration of the target. Smaller caliber rounds can stop inside the target but they also cause far less trauma and damage, enough less that an attacker may not even realize they've been shot. I've personally talked to folks who have survived gunshot wounds from small caliber rounds (one of them one of my best friends in high school), as well as police officers and EMTs who have responded to shootings and related the differences. And where walls are concerned I'm sorry but this is just common myth - NO wall in a modern house is proof against penetration by even the most violently expanding projectile, not even brick exterior walls. That's why I've always recommended a shotgun using #6 bird shot over any rifle or handgun for home defense situations. Those will still penetrate interior walls but are far less likely to penetrate even a moderately strong exterior wall.

As for the Black Talon ammo, oddly enough I was working at what is arguably the largest gun store in the US (by volume, not counting nationwide chain stores) at the time that whole kerfuffle happened. It was a big to-do during the last particularly nasty gun control fight and had nothing to do whatsoever with whether they were effective at penetrating police issue kevlar body armor (they weren't, by the way, but since when did that count for anything anyway). One thing I can tell you is that after a couple of notable officer involved shooting incidents where the officers were carrying these rounds we had a major run on them in certain calibers, namely .45, .40 and 9mm. Every officer from every agency in our stores' areas (Houston and Pasadena) were coming in for several boxes each. To them the proof of their effectiveness against unarmored targets was proven by practical field experience. One of the other related side effects of these incidents was an upswing of sales in larger caliber handguns to these same officers. Something about it taking fewer shots with a .45 or .40 to stop the perps...

 

[troj]

Okay, I think this discussion has gone on long enough, and has deviated far enough from Layne's original topic as to be pointless.


-Kevin